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If you have a Wierdboy with tankbustas and you get zzap or frazzle is the target restricted by glory hogs? I would say no because the wierdboy doesn't have glory hogs, but if not, then can the tankbustas still shoot? The entire unit has to shoot at the same thing, but the tankbustas have to "attempt to shoot... at an enemy vehicle" so do the tankbustas still get shots or does the wierdboy get restricted by a rule he doesn't actually have?

I'd say the Weirdboy could target something else but the Tankbustas wouldn't be able to fire.

I disagree. Unless the Weirdboy or either of the aforementioned psychic powers has a special rule that I'm unaware of or if the Tankbustas are allowed to not fire at all if their is a tank in range then when he uses a Psychic Shooting Attack he must target the same enemy unit as the rest of the squad.

Yes, the Weirdboy may target something different.

1. Weirdboy is attached (IC) to the tankbusta squad. He does not gain the attribute "Gloryhog."

3. Codex rules supercede BRB rules where the codex is more specific.

4. BRB says that one unit picks a unit and fires at it (there are things/wargear/powers that let you target multiple units like a Tau target lock).

5. Ork codex says that regardless of anything else happening, Tank bustas MUST always attempt to shoot at and/or assault an enemy vehicle if one is in line of sight.

6. Ork codex in this case is more specific than the BRB.
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With that said however....the chances of you running into this scenario are slim. =p First, I think a Weirdboy placed with tankbustas instead of boyz (or nobs) is a colossal mistake. Second, you're talking about a psychic power result, not a normal attack.


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Ghaz wrote:I disagree. Unless the Weirdboy or either of the aforementioned psychic powers has a special rule that I'm unaware of or if the Tankbustas are allowed to not fire at all if their is a tank in range then when he uses a Psychic Shooting Attack he must target the same enemy unit as the rest of the squad.

There *is* a special rule. It says that tankbustas must always fire and/or attempt to assault an enemy vehicle if one is in line of sight. If a weirdboy rolls a psychic power that results in "pick any unit within 18" and template them," then voila. You follow the rules.

Then you must follow more rules. They say, "Tankbustas must ALWAYS" etc. There is no exception. You DO NOT get to choose not to fire tankbustas at an enemy tank if there is one in line of sight.

Ghaz wrote:I disagree. Unless the Weirdboy or either of the aforementioned psychic powers has a special rule that I'm unaware of or if the Tankbustas are allowed to not fire at all if their is a tank in range then when he uses a Psychic Shooting Attack he must target the same enemy unit as the rest of the squad.

Ghaz is right. (Not for once, but He is right this time )

Gwar! stop ignoring the rules so that you can tell someone that they're right.

Dashofpepper wrote:Gwar! stop ignoring the rules so that you can tell someone that they're right.

Not ignoring the rules. The rules say One unit fires at One target, no exceptions (apart from the exceptions, like Tau stuff). There is no exception here, so if the Tankbusters are told by the Special Rule to shoot at X, the whole unit must shoot at X, even if they don't have the Special Rule.

Unit A must fire at unit B.
IC A is attached to unit A.
IC A and unit A do not have special rules saying they can shoot at different targets.
This seems about as clean-cut as you can get.

Deffgob wrote:Unit A must fire at unit B.
IC A is attached to unit A.
IC A and unit A do not have special rules saying they can shoot at different targets.
This seems about as clean-cut as you can get.

Quoted for Truth.

Dashofpepper is as wrong as wrong gets.

You guys are missing it. We're not talking about firing. We're talking about psychic powers. If you have a unit of tankbustas and a weirdboy attached, and during the shooting phase, you move to this unit to resolve their stuff....

Step 1: Weirdboy rolls on the leadership table to pass a psychic test. Presume he passes.

Step 2: Weirdboy rolls on the psychic table to determine a power. Lets say that he rolls a 3 and gets the Zzap result.

The Zzap result does not say anything about your unit, it says "Pick ANY target within...etc." The weirdboy then casts his psychic powers on target of choice, as the rules just commanded him to do.

Step 3: Tankbustas now come into play, and are commanded to fire at an enemy tank.
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As you're forgetting, codex rules supercede BRB. Your interpretations ignore codex-specific instructions. There isn't any room for interpretation, the actions to be taken are clearly outlined.

And Deffgob, the IC and the unit don't need special rules telling them to shoot at different targets. They each have their own rules telling them what to do. Simple enough; you follow both of their rules; they don't conflict.

Is it a 'Psychic Shooting Attack'? If it is, then you're the one who's missing it because psychic shooting attacks follow all of the rules for shooting. That includes not being able to split their 'shooting' between multiple units.

My friend's farseer always tries to blow up my mind while the dire avengers he's with shoot at my tactical marines...is he cheating or not? I'm inclined to think he isn't, because it doesn't have the gun strength or AP. However, I think that if my librarian wants to use smite and hes connected to some marines then they have to shoot at the same thing. therefore, I think if it's a shooting attack then he has to work with the squad he's attached to.

Your marines don't have a special rule telling them what to shoot at every turn. The weirdboy is granted the exception of picking ANY target within certain parameters and using his psychic power on it. Tankbustas ignore pretty much every rule relating to shooting and assaulting because of their special rule "Glory Hogs" which dictates special actions for them to take during shooting and assaulting.

For those of you who want to argue that they can't shoot at different targets, let us let you ignore the rules for a minute to play along.

Weirdboy + tankbustas unit declared target: Space marine squad (weirdboy then shoots at them). Gloryhogs now kicks in and forces the unit to fire at a tank instead. They still end up in the same boat at the end.

The key difference being the word "any." Zzap assuming Dash is right on the wording since I don't have an ork codex, specifies any unit. Mindwar specifies any model. When they say any they mean any. This is enough to override the normal targeting restrictions and is an exception to the basic BRB rules. Other powers that are normal style shooting attacks must of course follow the normal targeting parameters. Remember while the rules in the BRB apply to all psychic shooting attacks, the specific powers may contain exceptions, as Zzap aparently does in this case.

cool, so I don't get to yell at my friend after all.

Weirdboyz have some interesting special rules and powers. They also get to blast template stuff without rolling to scatter. As for the wording, it says...

"Choose an enemy unit within line of sight. If in range, that unit is automatically hit."

So the weirdboy drops a template on an enemy unit within line of sight and drops a STR6 AP3 blast template on them.

Then, when you get to the tankbustas for their shooting, "The MUST ALWAYS attempt to shoot at and/or assault an enemy vehicle if there is one in line of sight..."

Their special rule isn't conferred upon the weirdboy for joining the unit, he isn't forced to shoot at the tank. Then again...the weirdboy isn't shooting at the tank. Instead of shooting, he's using psychic powers, in the hopes of getting a Waaaugh! If the result happens to be a 2, then he gets to drop a template on an enemy unit of his choosing.

That's an interesting way of putting it. I suppose Weirdboyz are so crazily distracted by not letting their brains getting sucked out that they would rather not pay attention at what their squad is doing anyway

Dash is completely correct. Weirdboy's psychic power goes off well in advance of the shooting phase, during which the tankbustas are subject to their rule.

Unlike Eldar Farseers, the Weirdboy does not use Zzzap as a psychic shooting attack, it's just a psychic power that goes off. Mind War is very much a psychic shooting attack.

From the Codex Orks FAQ:

Q. Which Weirdboy psychic power is a psychic shooting attack?

A. Frazzle and Zzap (though they include a few exceptions to the normal shooting rules, as specified in their description).

So again, read the rules for Psychic Shooting Attacks in the rulebook. It's treated as any other ranged weapon so therefore the unit can only fire at ONE target, not two. So where do the rules for 'Zzap' say that he can fire at a separate target than the rest of the unit? They don't. Therefore since the tankbustas have a specific rule saying that they must fire at enemy vehicles then he must as well. There is no rule that allows the squad to split it's shooting.

Kirby, every time you poke your head into a thread, I go "I know that guy!"


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Ghaz wrote:From the Codex Orks FAQ:

Q. Which Weirdboy psychic power is a psychic shooting attack?

A. Frazzle and Zzap (though they include a few exceptions to the normal shooting rules, as specified in their description).

So again, read the rules for Psychic Shooting Attacks in the rulebook. It's treated as any other ranged weapon so therefore the unit can only fire at ONE target, not two. So where do the rules for 'Zzap' say that he can fire at a separate target than the rest of the unit? They don't. Therefore since the tankbustas have a specific rule saying that they must fire at enemy vehicles then he must as well. There is no rule that allows the squad to split it's shooting.

Dude, are you not reading? Frazzle and Zzap are an exception. Tankbustas are an exception. Anytime that a codex is more specific than the BRB, it takes precedence, which is the case here. One more time, the Ork codex is more specific than the shooting universal rule. You can ignore the rules governing shooting attacks because the Ork codex pertaining to these two units has their own special rules. I can't think of any other ways to try telling you that except for this:

Follow the rules, and there is only one outcome. Don't try interpreting what they mean, just do what they say. If you just follow what the codex says, you won't run into issues with them - when you start trying to interpret their potential meaning in relation to other rules in the BRB, and trying to decide which governs a unit's behavior (codex or BRB) you're going to run into issues because you're straying out of the basic BRB rule: Use this book unless your codex directs you otherwise through more specific activity.

And again, where does it say that they can fire at a separate target than the rest of the squad? Unless you can find that in the rules then no, there is not an exception. The word 'any' does not equal 'a different target than the rest of the squad'. 'Any' only means he's not restricted to firing at a particular type of enemy unit. You're the one who's not following the rules. Take your own advice instead of trying to 'interpret' them to your advantage.

Ghaz, when you use a psychic power with a weirdboy, and pick a unit and fire on it, you've done your duty.

Tankbustas must now fire at the same unit right? Except that their codex entry has a special rule. It orders them to ignore all else and fire at a tank.




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Ghaz, at the end of the day....we can argue all day here, but if we're in a tournament and we run into this, we're going to bring the TO over, I'm going to show him the rules, and he's going to rule in my favor. Not a doubt - the rules are clear here; extrapolate as much as you like, but it doesn't change anything.

Are you going to actually read the rules involved or are you going to keep talking nonsense? A unit can only fire at ONE TARGET. The tankbustas have a special rule requiring them to fire at a vehicle. The weirdboy has no rule regarding what target he may fire on except for the rules used for Psychic Shooting Attacks. From page 50 of the Warhammer 40,000 5th edition rulebook:

Using a psychic shooting attack counts as firing a ranged weapon (an assault weapon, unless specified otherwise). So, for example, the psyker must be able to see his target unit, cannot be locked in combat, or must not have run in the Shooting phase if he wishes to use a psychic shooting attack.

So once again, the ENTIRE UNIT MUST FIRE AT THE SAME TARGET. So far you've yet to provide an iota of evidence to the contrary.

Ghaz, its in the Ork codex, been quoted, been proven. I'm not going to argue with you here anymore; you're pretty obviously set in your ways, wrong as you are and further argument would be wasted time. Settle it with a TO if it comes up, and feel free to argue with them as much as you like.

Glory Hogs wrote:Tankbustas live for the really big kills. They must always attempt to shoot and/or assault an enemy vehicle if there is one within line of sight, regardless of range. If there is no visible vehicle target, the Tankbustas may select a target as normal.

Looking at the wording of the rule, there doesn't seem to be any exception to the rule prohibiting one unit firing at multiple targets. It merely says "must always attempt", that's not the same as them always having the ability to fire.

The way I see it, the Weirdboy may fire at whatever he wishes, as he is not bound by the Glory Hogs rule. However, should he fire at a non-vehicle unit, while a vehicle is within the Tankbusta's line of sight, the Tankbustas are unable to fire. They must attempt to fire at the vehicle, but are unable to do so because they may not fire at a different unit from the one already targeted by the Weirdboy. It's no different from them attempting to fire at a rhino that's 30" away and being unable to do so.

Obviously, this isn't going to be a huge issue in most cases, since Zzap is best used against vehicles anyways, and Frazzle isn't spectacular unless you catch someone bunched up together. The point of the Weirdboy/Tankbustas combo is primarily to teleport and fire at one tank's rear armor while releasing Bomb Squigs. (Zzap is good too, but that can be used just as effectively in a shoota boy squad.)

I think the problem involves the timing of the of the psychic power. You roll at the beginning of your shooting phase. That determines which power you must use, but it does not say it happens immediately outside of normal shooting rules. If you roll one of the psychic shooting attacks, you use it the same as any other shooting attack.

The verbiage for targeting with either PSA in the Ork codex is "Choose an enemy unit within line of sight". It does not say that you can ignore the other targeting restrictions.

When selecting a unit to make its shooting attacks in the shooting phase, you must declare a target unit. Because of the Glory Hog rule, if that tankbusta unit can see a vehicle they must target it. Since a unit can pick only 1 target to shoot at, and the warphead must use his power, he must also target the same unit.

You seem to be insinuating that the psychic power is used before the rest of the unit shoots, when in reality it would be resolved at the same time as the rest of the unit's shooting. As such, you can only select 1 target.

Ah, interesting. I though the power was resolved at the beginning of the phase as well, but it only says that he must roll for what power he uses at the beginning of the phase and use the power in that turn. I think IG orders are throwing me off.

Dashofpepper wrote:Ghaz, its in the Ork codex, been quoted, been proven. I'm not going to argue with you here anymore; you're pretty obviously set in your ways, wrong as you are and further argument would be wasted time. Settle it with a TO if it comes up, and feel free to argue with them as much as you like.

No, it's not been 'proven' or else we wouldn't be having this discussion, now would we? Add to that the fact that you can't respond to my arguments more than amply proves that I'm not the one whose wrong. Where do the rules ever allow the Weirdboy to fire at a different target than the rest of his unit? If you can't answer this simple question then you are quite simply wrong.

Dashofpepper wrote: The weirdboy is granted the exception of picking ANY target within certain parameters and using his psychic power on it.

The law of 'break no rule" means that attaching the weirdboy to a unit of tankbusters simply adds another set of parameters.

Ghaz is completely correct here. Dashofpepper you keep saying the universal 'catch phrase' of "Anytime that a codex is more specific than the BRB, it takes precedence, which is the case here" without actually spelling out why that is the case in this situation.

Specific rules override general rules, but only when the two are contradictory.

In the rare case of a model being able to target a specific model, can that rule possibly work within the existing framework of the rules for shooting (which psychic shooting attacks must follow)? If it can then the two rules must both be followed (i.e. "break no rule").

An Ork Weirdboy who fires 'Zzap' would still be firing at a target unit, it is just that his specific rule allows him to target a specific model within that target unit. In that way, both rules have been followed and no rules have been broken.


Since the Wierdboy is joined to the Tankbustas he is part of the unit and the entire UNIT has to fire at a single target unless a specific rule says that the unit can break this restriction.

Can a Wierdboy select any model but still be restricted by which models he is able to choose because of the fact that he is part of a unit? Absolutely. If you refuse to break a rule then you follow them both and you come up with:

The Wierdboy can select any model within the target enemy unit (which is the target unit that his entire unit is firing at).

Ghaz, at the end of the day....we can argue all day here, but if we're in a tournament and we run into this, we're going to bring the TO over, I'm going to show him the rules, and he's going to rule in my favor. Not a doubt - the rules are clear here; extrapolate as much as you like, but it doesn't change anything.

I strongly, strongly disagree with this assessment. I've been a tournament judge before (and I'll be it again) and I would absolutely NEVER make this ruling and I hope every tournament judge understands the 'break no rule' principle and would never rule the way you propose (which breaks the basic rules for shooting when that rule can be followed).