Glory Hogs and Wierdboyz

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**Gwar!**

Yakface is right as ever.

**Orkeosaurus**

Yakface, I'm not sure what you're saying about targeting a model; as far as I know Zzap only allows you to target a unit. It's not like Mind War or something.

Unless you meant placing the blast marker for Frazzle?

**mikhaila**

yakface wrote:Ghaz is completely correct here. Dashofpepper you keep saying the universal 'catch phrase' of "Anytime that a codex is more specific than the BRB, it takes precedence, which is the case here" without actually spelling out why that is the case in this situation.

Specific rules override general rules, but only when the two are contradictory.

In the rare case of a model being able to target a specific model, can that rule possibly work within the existing framework of the rules for shooting (which psychic shooting attacks must follow)? If it can then the two rules must both be followed (i.e. "break no rule").

An Ork Weirdboy who fires 'Zzap' would still be firing at a target unit, it is just that his specific rule allows him to target a specific model within that target unit. In that way, both rules have been followed and no rules have been broken.

Since the Wierdboy is joined to the Tankbustas he is part of the unit and the entire UNIT has to fire at a single target unless a specific rule says that the unit can break this restriction.

Can a Wierdboy select any model but still be restricted by which models he is able to choose because of the fact that he is part of a unit? Absolutely. If you refuse to break a rule then you follow them both and you come up with:

The Wierdboy can select any model within the target enemy unit (which is the target unit that his entire unit is firing at).

Ghaz, at the end of the day....we can argue all day here, but if we're in a tournament and we run into this, we're going to bring the TO over, I'm going to show him the rules, and he's going to rule in my favor. Not a doubt - the rules are clear here; extrapolate as much as you like, but it doesn't change anything.

I strongly, strongly disagree with this assessment. I've been a tournament judge before (and I'll be it again) and I would absolutely NEVER make this ruling and I hope every tournament judge understands the 'break no rule' principle and would never rule the way you propose (which breaks the basic rules for shooting when that rule can be followed).

As a TO, I would absolutely agree with Yak's logic.

**Nightwatch**

It seems to make more sense...but mind war can still be used at a model in a different unit if the IC's unit is firing at something else?

**Gwar!**

Nightwatch wrote:It seems to make more sense...but mind war can still be used at a model in a different unit if the IC's unit is firing at something else?

Farseers cannot use Mind War and Fire a Weapon (or second Psychic Shooting Attack) anyway, so it is a Moot Point. The only time this could come up is if Elrad uses Mind War Twice, which I am not sure he can even do.

**Nightwatch**

No, I meant if he joined a unit such as a dire avengers or perhaps a wraithlord. Can his mind war target a model in a seperate enemy unit from the enemy unit that the other models in the farseer's unit are shooting at?

**Gwar!**

Yes he can, because the Rules for Mind War State "Any unengaged Model within 18" "

**Dashofpepper**

Yeah, well I mostly troll around in the army list section trying to make people realize that their army is more than a collection of individual units running around randomly on the board. I can live with being wrong, but I always enjoy spirited conversation!

**Kirbinator**

Nightwatch wrote:No, I meant if he joined a unit such as a dire avengers or perhaps a wraithlord. Can his mind war target a model in a seperate enemy unit from the enemy unit that the other models in the farseer's unit are shooting at?

Gawr! wrote:Yes he can, because the Rules for Mind War State "Any unengaged Model within 18"

Alright, now I'm officially confused. The Tankbustaz cannot shoot at a separate target than the Weirdboy whose power reads as "place template over any unit and make death" but the Dire Avengers can shoot at a separate target when the Farseer's power reads as "pick any unengaded model and melt its brain"? Am I seriously missing something here?

**Gwar!**

Kirbinator wrote:Am I seriously missing something here?

Yes. Any Unit is the same as normal shooting, you can shoot at any unit, just in this case that unit is picked for you by a special rule. Mind war is different in that it lets you pick a specific model, and as such is an exception to the normal shooting rules.

**combo**

Mindwar isnt a true shooting attack, you dont roll to hit, you dont allocate wounds etc, also it never references unit in its rules.

**Gwar!**

combo wrote:Mindwar isnt a true shooting attack, you dont roll to hit, you dont allocate wounds etc, also it never references unit in its rules.

There is also that. However, it does say it is done instead of shooting, so you can't Mind War twice or Shoot and Mind War.

**combo**

Yep, I suppose its similar to how firing smoke is done instead of a shooting attack, but isnt a shooting attack obviously.

mindwar is instead of shooting, but is not shooting.

**Orkeosaurus**

I know you do get cover saves against Mind War.

**Gwar!**

Orkeosaurus wrote:I know you do get cover saves against Mind War.

Only because the FAQ allows it.

**combo**

Orkeosaurus wrote:I know you do get cover saves against Mind War.

another case highlighting the ineptitude of the GW FAQ writing staff for the most part, and hence why most players totally ignore it, playing to play pure raw or INAT FAQ

**Orkeosaurus**

"Most players" totally ignore the Games Workshop FAQ?

Do you have a source for that statistic?

**Gwar!**

Orkeosaurus wrote:"Most players" totally ignore the Games Workshop FAQ?

Do you have a source for that statistic?

Me. I constitute 90% of people

**combo**

im not saying most players ignore FAQ's but it does seem the majority prefer the INAT FAQ, though I cannot provide a statistic

**Gwar!**

combo wrote:im not saying most players ignore FAQ's but it does seem the majority prefer the INAT FAQ, though I cannot provide a statistic

Sadly, the INAT FAQ:
1) Says to use the GW FAQs
2) Has more rules changes than Formula 1, but they are disguised as "clarifications".