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On paper they look pretty good. Put them in a land raider and you've got a pretty mean CC unit that can do some damage in the shooting phase, too (if you arm enough of them with grenade launchers). They're really expensive, though. Terminators are probably more cost effective but you can actually fit 10 honor guard + a chapter master into a land raider. I was thinking that that alone might make them worth their points. Not much would be able to stand toe to toe with them. So when you take them do you bother with auxillary grenade launchers? How many relic blades do you take? Is it better to just run them with minimum upgrades? What say you?

The problem is that they're not suriveable enough vs AP2 to be worth that many points TH/SS termies have a 3+ invuln save, regular terminators, for 5 points cheaper than aux grenade launcher honor guard, have a 5+ invuln.

The chapter banner makes them sort of worth it if you take a group of 10. 44 Power attacks on the charge is nothing to laugh at, with the chapter master connect to them makes them downright terrifying.

The chapter banner is what I figure edges them out over terminators. There aren't a whole lot of units out there with all that many power weapon attacks so the 2+ armor save will normally apply. Howling Banshees are the only unit that I can think of that will get to strike before them most of the time. You'll probably wipe out anything else before they get to attack if you get the charge. Then there's the fact that you can put them in a land raider rather than having to deep strike to get a full squad. Skip the grenade launchers and relic blades and you still have 55 power weapon attacks at I5, WS4, STR4 for 285 points if you charge. Coming out of a land raider you have a pretty good shot of pulling it off most of the time.

I have thought about them (and am probably going to run some tommorrow). They are a huge points sink though.

What I was looking at was a Chapter Master w/ Thunderhammer, SS, Artificer Armor, a Librarian with Force Dome and Null Zone, and 8 Honor Guard w/ 2 Relic Blades, Thunderhammer on the Sergent, and Chapter Banner.

All of that costs 655 points! So you can see that I wouldn't dare run it under 2000 points. It's crazy when it hits though.

I allways thought the best thing about thing was that they can use a razorback.

The only way to run Honour Guard is with a Force Dome Librarian. Without that 5+ Invulnerable save, they just get wiped out by a single Demolisher shot or Plasma salvo.

Which, coupled with the compulsory Chapter Master, means that both of your HQ choices in a normal game will be spoken for.

A 10 man nob squad for like 250 points will eat them alive.
Banshees eat them alive.
Dark Eldar Wyches Eat them Alive.
5 LC terms for 200 eat them alive.
5 Chaos terms w/ nothing eat them alive.


Their just not that good even with the powerweapon and 2+ that pretty much any other HTH squad in contact kills them.

I've never allowed any of the honor guard units to charge me, so I can't say for sure weather or not they're amazingly good for their points cost but there's an easy way to find out! time for MATH HAMMER!!!

I'll use Mr. Mahu's projected squad as an example, since they're not in a LR we can't assume that they will almost always charge so I'll pit them against an even number of assault terminators (7 TH SS, and 3 LC), lead by Calgar.

If honor guard charge

Bolt pistols 9(2/3x1/2x1/6)= .5 kills

Bolt pistol from Chapter master 1(5/6x1/2x1/6)=.08 unsaved wounds

Regular guard: 25(1/2x1/2x4/9)= 2.77 unsaved wounds

Honor guard with Relic blades 8(1/2x5/6x4/9)= 1.48 unsaved wounds

Librarian attacks 5(2/3x1/2x4/9) .774 unsaved wounds

3 LC termies respond 9(1/2x3/4x2/3) = 2.25 unsaved wounds

Chapter Master 5(2/3x5/6x4/9)= .987 unsaved wounds

Chapter Champion (attacks directed against Calgar) 5(3/4x35/36x3/4)= 2.91 unsaved wounds (i'm not sure about this, I don't have the rulebook in front of me, so I don't know what his invul save is)

Calgar 5(2/3x5/6x2/3)= 1.851 unsaved wounds

So round 1 is a very handy victory for the honor guard with 6 termies dead and Calgar too. I don't have time to run the number for what it would look like if the termies charged, but it all depends on weather or not the Libby can cast his null zone during the opponents turn, if he can't then I think that the honor guard would be hard pressed to hold the termies back.

Lord-Loss wrote:I allways thought the best thing about thing was that they can use a razorback.

Razorbacks are too easy to pop and you can't assault out of them.


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Hollismason wrote:A 10 man nob squad for like 250 points will eat them alive.

No. A fully kitted out nob squad with a warboss that costs around 500 or 600 points would probably beat them, though.

Hollismason wrote:Banshees eat them alive.

I mentioned this. That's why you avoid them. Even if you do get stuck in with them they still need 5s to wound. When you hit back you need 2s and 3s. They would hurt but I think that the honor guard would win. It just wouldn't be worth the victory...

Hollismason wrote:Dark Eldar Wyches Eat them Alive.

Uhh....seriously?

5 LC terms for 200 eat them alive.

If the honor guard got the charge they'd wipe them out without breaking a sweat. If they got charged the terminators would get hit back just as hard as they got hit when the honor guard retaliate. A 5 man terminator squad w/ lightning claws probably won't take them out in one round of combat.

Hollismason wrote:5 Chaos terms w/ nothing eat them alive.

Just the other day I had a 5 man command squad with a captain up against a 6 man chaos terminator squad with a lord. They hung in there for 5 or 6 rounds of combat. The only reason that they didn't wipe out the terminators was because the guy made at least 6 invuln saves in a row. Had it been an honor guard squad the terminators wouldn't have survived one round of combat.

Hollismason wrote:Their just not that good even with the powerweapon and 2+ that pretty much any other HTH squad in contact kills them.

They're expensive. With 3-4 power weapon attacks each (depending on if you take a relic blade or not) they should be expensive. There's no doubt that that's awesome. The question is is it worth the points?

I podded a 5 man squad with the commander. After grabbing some cover I took two rounds of shooting from an entire IG army and only lost one guy! Granted, it wasn't tweaked for AP, but I was still mucho impressed.

I've not used honour guard, but I have used similarly equiped command squads and they are horrific; but then I can give command squads a storm shield to soak up some of the low AP weapons

I think the key to using them is to keep them in a land raider and drive them up to whatever needs killing, then offload them and watch them rip it apart.

artyboy wrote:

Hollismason wrote:Dark Eldar Wyches Eat them Alive.

Uhh....seriously?

Uh, yes seriously. Wyches reduce the honor guards weaponskill and get a 4+ inv save in close combat. Couple that with the agonizer equipped succubi with combat drugs, and a 200 point unit of wyches will own the honor guard. Especially if they charge. Same with any of the other squads that were listed. We can mathhammer it out if you want too, but the fact of the matter is they are WS4, S4, T4 and I4 just like regular space marines, and anything with alot of power weapons standard, high initiative or high beefy invulnerable saves will stop them in their tracks. (Bloodletters, Terminators, Banshees + Doom, Berzerkers, the list goes on.)

Don't forget that if you are playing against Eldar, Nids, Marines with Hoods, Inquisitors with Hoods or Null Rods or Dark Eldar with that goofy anti-psyker thingy, you're going to be hard pressed to get Force Dome off everytime to protect them.

Really a better combo would be Azrael (And his 4+ Inv) and a Dark Angels Command Squad.

If you can deliver the honor guard to be able to charge, then they will win, but then they will be offed in the countercharge/shooting retailiation. They are not worth the points over what TH/SS termies would do.

Relic Blades FTW the space marine response to the Night Bringer
I love honor Guard and fidn them to be a back breaking unit though expensive point wise they will kill their points over and over if you target MCs and HQs and just Elites but if you ask me relic blades are a must but grenade launchers not so much

Everyone has mentioned points heavy special units to take them out, yet you have missed out the obvious

30 boyz, klaw+pole boss with all the usual crap thrown in.
cheap on points, and throws out enough attacks to ruin any unit in a single turn.
not only that, but they have numbers to survive, and with a gak save anyway, power weps mean nothing to them.

JD21290 wrote:Everyone has mentioned points heavy special units to take them out, yet you have missed out the obvious

30 boyz, klaw+pole boss with all the usual crap thrown in.
cheap on points, and throws out enough attacks to ruin any unit in a single turn.
not only that, but they have numbers to survive, and with a gak save anyway, power weps mean nothing to them.

On the charge a 10 man squad of Honour Guard will be hitting with nearly 60 power weapon hits; how many boys do you think will actually be left to attack back and with a 2+ armour save there isn't going to be many dying.

15 orks will die, and then 3-4 marines in the return swing, meaning the orks may or may not explode due to combat res. However, in the next turn, the marines will be subject to whatever hell the ork player decides to throw at them next. A 400+ point unit bags a 200 point ork squad and then dies.

Not a very good investment.

I don't understand these arguments that essentially devolve into "name the unit that can beat this unit". Every unit has it's counter, but a good general can minimize a unit's weaknesses by careful movement and planning.

Honor Guard are a hammer unit. They cost a ton of points and require certain units to be taken to properly support them. Space Marines do benefit a little when it comes to hammer units because they have the survivability to adapt to battlefield situations and react.

Case in point, I played a Aard Boyz test game this weekend against a dual Nob Biker list (the new modified Kill Point scenario). I held everything in reserve, and the bikerz player really aggressive in the hopes of charging me as I came out piece meal, but the opposite occurred. Vulkan, a Commander with Thunderhammer/SS, and a decently kitted out command squad (I keep command squads around 200 points max) was able to counter charge out of a Land Raider Redeemer and between the shooting that I had, and the close combat that followed, I wiped one Nob Biker Unit and Warboss off the table. The second charged and wiped the command squad and Vulkan, but the 5 TH/SS Terminators I had counter charged again and forced the Warboss to flee.

Ended up getting a Tie, but you have to place that in contex that my list was literally something I put together in a few minutes and I had never used a Command Squad before.

What does this have to do with Honor Guard? Well, as you can see, I kept everything well supported and used other units in my army, even sacrificially, to create a favorable situation for the units that can hit hard. It's the tactics behind the so called "hammer units", that need to be applied to Honor Guard.

Honor Guard are like Mega Armored Nobz. They are pricy and don't seem worth it in a vacuum. But when you put them in a survivable transport (Battlewagon/Land Raider), add in a character that increases their survivability (Librarian, Mad Dok Grotsnik), and learn when and where to apply them, they can be a very useful hard hitting unit.

They are probably not going to make it into anybody's "Best of" list, but I do believe you can win a good amount of games fielding them.

Best reason to use honor guard is if you want a good assault unit but need to fill your elite slots with other stuff. Example I have seen -- pedro with all 3 elites filled. They get the +1 attack without the extra cost of a banner and your army has some counter charge.


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Also forgot to add, honorgaurd can mech up way cheaper then terminators. Yes you can't assault out of a moving rhino but they can still roll with your army and sit tight, waiting for a chance to disembark and counter charge.

winterman wrote:Best reason to use honor guard is if you want a good assault unit but need to fill your elite slots with other stuff.

But Vanguard are Fast Attack

While van are better against non-MEq for the points, I like that for 15 points more for HG you get a 2+ save, a bolter and a power weapon. Makes the honorguard more all-rounders. FA is better used for speeders also. YMMV.

A space marine command squad gives you more utility for cheaper cost than an honor guard, and the Company Commander gives you more FoC options if you give him a bike, where as the Chapter Master only gives you the Orbital Bombardment.

I'd be running Vulcan. When I won't be running Vulcan I'll run a captain and a command squad. I agree that vanilla chapter masters aren't worthwhile.

Well without a chapter master, you couldn't take honor guard anyways (Vulkan does not open up Honor guard or command squad). And I agree with whitedragon, command squad is better, as is captain typically. Pedro would be the exception if you happen to be running him. It really is a rare army build where honor guard are even worth considering imo from a pure effectiveness point of view. Sure nice looking and full of modelling potential though.

Vulcan is a chapter master. How do you not get to choose honor guard when you take him?

Vulcan is a Forgefather, a special rank within the Salamanders Chapter. The current Salamander Chapter Master is Tu'shan.

Rules wise, there is no special character that unlocks Honor Guard, not even Pedro.

I would agree that I would field a walking Command Squad before Honor Guard.

Honour Guard are great. Why are they great.

1) Power Weapon + Bolt Pistol may as well be Lightning Claws. Unlike LC they also have Grenades.
2) The Champ buy is a bargain, give him a Thunderhammer.
3) May as well take some Relic Blades. Dude that gak is cool.
4) What else do they do. Chapter Banner. Awesome.

Character is optional. Chappy or a Librarian is probably a better choice with your Chapter Master doing something else. Chappy gives them a 4++ albeit pricey. But their biggest edge besides the Chapter Banner and the this and the that is the Frag Grenades.

Mahu wrote:Vulcan is a Forgefather, a special rank within the Salamanders Chapter. The current Salamander Chapter Master is Tu'shan.

Rules wise, there is no special character that unlocks Honor Guard, not even Pedro.

I would agree that I would field a walking Command Squad before Honor Guard.

Sadly this is not true Pedro DOES let you use Honor guard as it says specifically that he is a chapter master and lets you have access the Honor Guard

Mahu wrote:Vulcan is a Forgefather, a special rank within the Salamanders Chapter. The current Salamander Chapter Master is Tu'shan.

Rules wise, there is no special character that unlocks Honor Guard, not even Pedro.

I would agree that I would field a walking Command Squad before Honor Guard.

Marneus Calgar also unlocks 3 Honor Guard squads.

They are a fantastic unit, I have had great success with them, accually amazing success, they do have weaknesses but not many, the lack of invulnerable save is over come bye equiping some of them with a storm shield and use the wound allocation to your advantage, I iether use them with pedro, or with a banner, and I equip them with 2 storm sheilds, and 2 relic blades, 1 on the champion and let them go kill some stuff. In one game they took out 2 20 man squads of ork boys and nob biker unit with the boss in it, only losing 3 modles, after that there was nothing to kill or they would have done more. I ran them in tandom with a unit of thunder hammer terminators, it is a brutal combo. All in all running them with pedro seems to be best as he can boost the terminators as well or any near bye unit, I dont put pedro in combat but position him to where he can benefit more units.

I dont put them in friendly games, as they are so hard to deal with eccpecially in a land raider.

I agree with the 3 posters who said that you wouldnt want to field them in a < 2000 pt game, wouldn't want to field them unless you have your elite slots maxed out, and that most dedicated CC units will win via the mathhammer vs Honour guard.

That said, they are better than Vanguard if you have your Elites taken up and need a counterattack unit. For instance, my ard boyz list (which I didnt play with, sadly,) consisted of among other things Pedro, 2 Sternguard squads, an assault termie squad in a LR and an honour guard squad in a LR. Two LRs with counterattack units can take up the entire table center with counterattack threat.