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Mahu wrote:I don't understand these arguments that essentially devolve into "name the unit that can beat this unit". Every unit has it's counter, but a good general can minimize a unit's weaknesses by careful movement and planning.

Because its easier than explaining any actual tactics. An internetz=epeen contests.

Seriously, the fact that some heavy hitters can trump the squad is a pretty poor argument- unless said units are very common. Dark Eldar? Please, I haven't seen anyone around here playing them in a long time. The ork mob is more relevant, since they are common, but still not a serious concern in a vacuum. The honor guard would explode the orks with CR or butcher them in the following round on I.

Counter attacks are a concern with such pricey assault units. The lack of a good invulnerable save means a sacrificial unit can be thrown out to block them and set up for something nasty in the following turn (plasma, demolisher, Lash, etc.)

In terms of force projection, it will be tough to make up their points and leaves you with less army elsewhere. For large or Apoc games that may be okay (since people are just trying to fill space alot of time anyway), but I don't see it as being viable in regular games. And since command squads can do a similar trick for fewer points and don't require a chapter master....

jmurph wrote:
Counter attacks are a concern with such pricey assault units. The lack of a good invulnerable save means a sacrificial unit can be thrown out to block them and set up for something nasty in the following turn (plasma, demolisher, Lash, etc.)

In terms of force projection, it will be tough to make up their points and leaves you with less army elsewhere. For large or Apoc games that may be okay (since people are just trying to fill space alot of time anyway), but I don't see it as being viable in regular games. And since command squads can do a similar trick for fewer points and don't require a chapter master....

Uhm...that's exactly what we are all trying to say. For the same points as honor guard, you can have things that can whether the counterassault better. (TH/SS Terminators or Command Squad) Their lack of an INV save and their marine statline means that they lose out any time they can't get the charge.

And other races' heavy hitters are a concern since they will be trying to get a favorable matchup for themselves vs your honor guard. There are alot of heavy hitters in just about every army that will run up against honor guard. And this doesn't even include all the AP2 weapons that will be going your way.

Chaos
Khorne Berzerkers
Possessed
Chaos Terminators

Demons
Everything

Dark Eldar
Incubi
Wyches

Eldar
Seer Council
Banshees
Shining Spears

Demonhunters
Grey Knight Terminators

Space Marines of Any Flavor
Anything swinging alot of power weapons and furious charge

Tyranids
Anything with Rending Claws

The list goes on and on. The fact is, there are better choices than the honor guard, especially if you are going up against alot of AP2 or Power Weapons. They do just as well as terminators can against small arms and non power weapons (but the command squad is comparable, can have bikes and FNP for cheaper), and they can sweeping advance. However, once the going gets rough, you will wish you had terminators.

I always wish I had more assault terminators. And that they were scoring ;-)

Personally, I'm a believer int he unit, but I haven't nailed down a "prime" configuration yet.

Here's another question for the Dakka-At-Large. Since you do have to have a Chapter Master to run these, what do you think is the best Chapter Master to run with them?

Marneus in AoA (prevents Sweeping Advance, but it's the model that comes in the box with them, and he is a beast)

Marneus in PA - I can't get this model, but I could make a counts-as with dual PF. This seems like the best to me so far

Generic Master - Which weapons? TH/RB w DW? Twin LC? SS/PF? Toss out your thoughts on this, I think for the points, you could make a more efficient dedicated CC monster, but he won't have the awesome Calgar powers that makes your entire army laugh at LD checks.

I guess there's always the option of MC in AoA, and run him separately, since technically the unit doesn't have to accompany the Master....

Other SC Masters?

What's the general thoughts on this?

For me there too much of a point sink for a unit that can die easily. Also Calgar is too much of a point sink too. Vulkhan to me looks like the best 200 points for the ability to reroll failed misses for flamers and meltas and you get a solid Hq with it is worth the points.

An Attached Librarian with Force Dome and Null Zone is generally accepted to be the best resilience enhancement that this unit can get.

Care to justify your statement about Calgar not being worth it, or is that just a gut feeling?

I've used him to great success and would continue to do so if he was 300 points. He is both a absolute CC beast, and the only army-wide buff your Marines will ever need. Now he's got Orbital Bombardment, and can choose between PFx2 and Powersword in I5, re-rolling ALL fails to hit and wound.

I can understand not everyone loving him, but can you at least explain a bit more about why? Vulkan is nice, but what is all that Twin-Linking going to do for the Honor Guard? Nothing, really. If you're running Vulkan Marines, you'd want TH/SS terminators anyway since the TH are twin-linked.

As an alternative to Calgar for a good Master to run HG with, I'd say Vulkan is between sub-par and inefficient as a choice.

GeneralRetreat wrote:An Attached Librarian with Force Dome and Null Zone is generally accepted to be the best resilience enhancement that this unit can get.

Care to justify your statement about Calgar not being worth it, or is that just a gut feeling?

I've used him to great success and would continue to do so if he was 300 points. He is both a absolute CC beast, and the only army-wide buff your Marines will ever need. Now he's got Orbital Bombardment, and can choose between PFx2 and Powersword in I5, re-rolling ALL fails to hit and wound.

I can understand not everyone loving him, but can you at least explain a bit more about why? Vulkan is nice, but what is all that Twin-Linking going to do for the Honor Guard? Nothing, really. If you're running Vulkan Marines, you'd want TH/SS terminators anyway since the TH are twin-linked.

As an alternative to Calgar for a good Master to run HG with, I'd say Vulkan is between sub-par and inefficient as a choice.

Remind me again why Calgar rerolls all failed hits?

oddjustice wrote:

GeneralRetreat wrote:As an alternative to Calgar for a good Master to run HG with, I'd say Vulkan is between sub-par and inefficient as a choice.

Remind me again why Calgar rerolls all failed hits?

Calgar has a Master Crafted weapon, and Titanic Might. So he can re-roll one hit and all wounds, so not quite "all failed hits".

As for Vulkan, nobody said vulkan would be better to lead honor guard, they said Vulkan would be better than Calgar for most Marine armies because of his Melta/Flamer/TH buff.

whitedragon wrote:

oddjustice wrote:

GeneralRetreat wrote:As an alternative to Calgar for a good Master to run HG with, I'd say Vulkan is between sub-par and inefficient as a choice.

Remind me again why Calgar rerolls all failed hits?

Calgar has a Master Crafted weapon, and Titanic Might. So he can re-roll one hit and all wounds, so not quite "all failed hits".

As for Vulkan, nobody said vulkan would be better to lead honor guard, they said Vulkan would be better than Calgar for most Marine armies because of his Melta/Flamer/TH buff.

Ah, good to know. I wasn't paying attention to his mastercrafted weapons. Makes him even more intriguing as an HQ choice.

But the thread is about Honor Guard in the first place, making any discussion about Vulkan being better for "most" Marine armies a serious derailment.

I was skirting derailment with the question about a Chapter Master to use with them, but since it was still relevant, I told myself it was "expanding the topic".

Let me check my Codex on Calgar - you are correct sir, he re-rolls all wounding attempts in shooting and CC, not To Hit. My apologies on that. Still, I stand by my statement that he is still, in fact, a monster, and worth every point.

I like to joke with my friends by telling them that I'm going to show them the balance of the new Space Marine Codex by putting out two equal value models - and put down Calgar in AoA next to a Land Raider Redeemer with Extra Armor and Multi-Melta. 265 heavyweights, INDAHOUSE!

Calgar can not re-roll to hit. He is NOT equipped with a master crafted weapon. He has matched powerfists that have an AP2 storm bolter built in.

He has Titanic Might and that's it.

Even so he is still amazing in that he allows all of your units to choose Pass/Fail. Completely worth it for that alone, very much changes the game play experience.
He's also a monster in HTH with 6x PF attacks on the charge, or 5x Pseudo Lightning claw attacks(power sword with re-roll to wound). I currently run him in my Ultramarine list and am very happy with how he plays.

On topic.
I have played a bit with Honor guard simply because I love the models. Unfortunately from a tournament/competitive standpoint they really aren't worth it.
The things that really hurt them are:
No INV (as so many people pointed out)
Relative Intiative (going simo with most units)
High Cost (you want to take relic blades but at 50pts a model its insane)

The configuration I have been playing with is:
10x HG w/ Banner - 375
CM w/ Arti, SS, Relic - 185
Kahn - 160

This comes out to 62x S5+ I5+ attacks on the charge. The unit also has Hit & Run, Outflank, and rides in a Redeemer w/ EA & MM.

This all comes for the new low, low price of 995pts.

The objective is to engage as many units as possible and potentially wipe them out in 1 round of combat.

Sure the PW won't do great against a Seer Council but they will go at the same time and inflict more wounds w/ about the same survivability, 2+ vs 4+(4+)

If you are considering competitive play, there really is no point in taking HG, the unit above is the only thing I have tried that is competitive. It really does eat what ever they charge... Even T8 wraithlords and C'Tan.

GeneralRetreat wrote:But the thread is about Honor Guard in the first place, making any discussion about Vulkan being better for "most" Marine armies a serious derailment.

I was skirting derailment with the question about a Chapter Master to use with them, but since it was still relevant, I told myself it was "expanding the topic".

Let me check my Codex on Calgar - you are correct sir, he re-rolls all wounding attempts in shooting and CC, not To Hit. My apologies on that. Still, I stand by my statement that he is still, in fact, a monster, and worth every point.

I like to joke with my friends by telling them that I'm going to show them the balance of the new Space Marine Codex by putting out two equal value models - and put down Calgar in AoA next to a Land Raider Redeemer with Extra Armor and Multi-Melta. 265 heavyweights, INDAHOUSE!

he's been nothing but good to me. especially with his 2+ saving throw retinue. I tend to throw the tough saves on him; eternal warrior goes a LONG way toward improving the survivability of his surrounding unit.

I can recall a game where he and his honor guard tarpitted a 30 man boyz squad, a warboss, and a unit of meganobz as they piled in turn after turn. Killed the meganobz by HIMSELF in one shot, say hello to my dual powerfist friend.