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i think they can because why would GW change their name from hellguns (sounds cool) to hot-shot lasguns (not so cool) if they were not supposed to be able to utilize that order. also according to lore; hot-shot lasguns are Sniper variant lasguns with greater stopping power and range.

The Angry Commissar wrote:i think they can because why would GW change their name from hellguns (sounds cool) to hot-shot lasguns (not so cool) if they were not supposed to be able to utilize that order. also according to lore; hot-shot lasguns are Sniper variant lasguns with greater stopping power and range.

There have been several threads about this. The RAW argument is that since it is not a "Lasgun" but a "Hotshot Lasgun", then it cannot receive the rule.
RAI arguers say that it is quite clearly intended (as you have), but the problem is that this is speculation as to the intention.

Would I give it to my opponent? Sure.
But that doesn't make it RAW.

Firstly i think It would be nice if they could use FRFSRF, hell i even think i makes sense for them to be able to.

But they are not specifically mentioned in the rule so do not get an extra shot.

It is also a poor argument that Hell guns = hot-shot lasguns. Hell guns (cool name or not) are AP 5 lasguns, Hot shot lasguns are AP3, range 18.

I wish.

But no, it's definitely a different weapon and doesn't seem fair to apply FRFSRF to a weapon that isn't specifically described in the rule.

Then again, if all Rams are Tank Shocks...

DoW

I agree with "The Angry Commisar" as the rule just says that lasguns, hotshot lasguns are just an adapted version of it (though it could be quite an unfair advantage to you unleaseing potentially 30 AP 3 shots on your foe.) it would be great for taking down carnifexes and hive tyrants though

Tri wrote:Firstly i think It would be nice if they could use FRFSRF, hell i even think i makes sense for them to be able to.

But they are not specifically mentioned in the rule so do not get an extra shot.

This is my opinion (in both ways) as well.

Tri wrote: Hot shot lasguns are AP3, range 18 and Assualt weapons

This is incorrect though. They are Rapid Fire not Assault (luckily(?) Storm Troopers have Hot Shot pistols as well (and CC weapons too even))

Jack

ah forgive me ... I keep forgetting they have a pistol. (always seems they've got an assault 1 weapon as he never seems to rapid fire me. Just fires the pistol and charges)

A hot-shot lasgun has a different name and rules profile than a lasgun.

Seems pretty simple and obvious that it wouldn't be affected by the order.

The more I think about it, the more I think this is a very similar situation to the "special CCW are still CCW" argument.

Lightning Claws/Powerfists/Thunder Hammers may have different rules than normal CCW, but many would argue that any effect that applies to 'CCW' in general would apply to them as well.

Do Hot-shot Lasguns fall under the main category of Lasguns, albeit with special stats? Or are they to be considered totally separate?

If the former is the case, then I think we would have to accept that FRFSRF applies, if not, then it doesn't.

DoW

DogOfWar wrote:The more I think about it, the more I think this is a very similar situation to the "special CCW are still CCW" argument.

Lightning Claws/Powerfists/Thunder Hammers may have different rules than normal CCW, but many would argue that any effect that applies to 'CCW' in general would apply to them as well.

Do Hot-shot Lasguns fall under the main category of Lasguns, albeit with special stats? Or are they to be considered totally separate?

If the former is the case, then I think we would have to accept that FRFSRF applies, if not, then it doesn't.

DoW

What effects apply to only CCW? I'm unable to think of a single rule that effects them directly. Would you be so kind as tell me which ones, where i can find them, and/or the thread this was in?

I think that DoW has it in terms of how to define if a hot shot lasgun qualifies, unfortunately it will be up to GW to rule on it, and I am sure that they will only do it in a FAQ and not errata it so even then it will only be a soft rule other than a hard rule. I am honestly not sure how to answer this as there are sub-categories of different things in the world, but trying to subject real world similarities hardly solidify an arguement within the WH40k universe.

No.

Not the same.

In a perfect world perhaps, but this is GWs kitty, NOT a perfect world.

Tri,

Apparently there is an Eldar (or Dark Eldar?) wargear called 'Razorsnares' that affects models wielding two CCW and negates the +1 bonus attack gained. Whether that means two normal CCW or if it would work against all variants of special/normal CCWs was in dispute.

This all stemmed from the stationary ramming question (found Here) which asked a similar question regarding whether anything that affected a Tank Shock would also affect a Ram by virtue of Ramming being a 'special kind' of Tank Shock.

Hope that helps!

DoW

oh god wych weapons ... should have guessed it would be a Dark Eldar rule.

Dam that is tricky there's 2 lines of thought I can see coming from this

Ether they can only use 1 CCW at a time of any sort.

or the rule doesn't work since it doesn't specify Normal or Special CCW's

Personally I'd go with only 1 CCW since they're both sub types of CCW but I can see how the rule lawyer could argue it the other way.

Yes, Lasgun is a Lasgun. The rule says it only affects Lasguns with no wording limiting the types of Lasgun. Plasma and other gun types don't recieve the rule because the were excluded specifically by the wording.

Well, I was going to say:
A hotshot lasgun is not a lasgun, it has a different name and it has different rules. Having the word "lasgun" in its name does not define it as a type of lasgun.

But, you've taunted me, DoW
So, HURP! DURP! HS lasguns are a special type of lasgun and therefore benefits from the rule, just like a platypus.

my point was that why would they bother to rename it (other than GW flippancy) if they wouldnt be able to use the order?

I'd allow it. It might even help to redeem the unit after GW's policy of 'overprice AP3'. Just too bad Vespid and 1k sons can't FRFSRF.

Except platypi always fire 3 times!

But to be fair this is a situation where the same logic comes up with a pretty unrealistic result. No matter how 'heroic' an officer might be, I seriously doubt he can increase the firing range of a weapon just by ordering THAT IT BE SO!

Game-wise, I really don't think it's a valid ruling but if I suppose it *could* be argued as such.

DoW


Automatically Appended Next Post:

The Angry Commissar wrote:my point was that why would they bother to rename it (other than GW flippancy) if they wouldnt be able to use the order?

Because Hellguns still exist until they change the DH and WH codices.

On a related note, I say you should be able to equip your guardsmen with Triplex pattern Lasguns so you can dial up or dial down the intensity depending on the firefight. If Dan Abnett's guardsmen can do it, so can mine!

DoW

They changed them to hot-shot lasguns so people wouldn't be confused and try to argue that their old inquisitorial storm trooper hellguns were AP 3. They definitely cannot be given the FRFSRF order. They are not "lasguns". If I had an ability that made "bolters" shoot more, my heavy bolters would not benefit.

That argument doesn't really hold water given the TH/SS situation.

Jack

<irrelevant aside>

DogOfWar wrote:Except platypi always fire 3 times!

As a member of the relevant country, and seeing as how important nomenclature is on YMDC, I feel that I should point out that platypi is not the correct pluralisation - the root language is greek, not latin. Platypuses or Platypodes please, or else you won't be able to be clear on the rules that affect them
</irrelevant aside>

Also no, if they had meant to allow all weapons that have 'lasgun' in the name to FRFSRF they would have said pretty much that.

Please note that this has already been discussed to death. Unless some new information has come up, why are we having this thread?

EDIT: Speller'ing

RAW reason: "hot-shot lasguns" are not "lasguns".
Fluff reason: storm troopers don't fire in ranks. They run around shooting and accomplishing their special objective.
Rules precedent reason: the weapons lysander re-rolls are all listed (heavy bolters, bolters, storm bolters, bolt pistols), not just stated as "bolters". Same for vulkan and flamers/heavy flamers, meltaguns/multimeltas. If FRFSRF was to work with hot-shot lasguns it would have listed hot-shot lasguns.

additional comparison.

Necron codex:

Gauss Weapons only have Gauss in their names rather than in their type.

unistoo wrote:<irrelevant aside>
As a member of the relevant country, and seeing as how important nomenclature is on YMDC, I feel that I should point out that platypi is not the correct pluralisation - the root language is greek, not latin. Platypuses or Platypodes please, or else you won't be able to be clear on the rules that affect them
</irrelevant aside>

Wait, you're Greek? You should definitely get your flag fixed then!

In all seriousness, I was attempting to use the colloquial (and much more amusing) plural for comedic effect. But you do bring up an interesting point.

From a more linguistic point of view, English is one of the most dynamic and dialectic languages in the world and as such generates countless 'acceptable' alternatives for many different words in use today. After all, I doubt anyone would agree that Australian English, British English and American English are exactly alike, yet all are classified as the English language. Platypi is one of those accepted variations of pluralisation (along with shined/shone, ironic/ironical, etc) that often differ from country to country (and sometimes province to province/state to state) so while it might not be as correct when looking at the root language, I think it's perfectly acceptable to use in everyday speech.

This being said, if we were in a particular discussion about the roots of the English language, well then you'd be absolutely right in correcting me.
------------------------------------
Back to FRFSRF.

While I agree with you, ph34r, I think it's an important point that hot-shot lasguns aren't actually different weapons in the fluff. They're just loaded with beefier power packs. Not sure if this makes a difference to anyone's viewpoint (it certainly doesn't do anything to change the RAW), but it's like a Bolter loaded with Hellfire Rounds rather than regular rounds. It is technically still a Bolter.

DoW

ph34r wrote:They changed them to hot-shot lasguns so people wouldn't be confused and try to argue that their old inquisitorial storm trooper hellguns were AP 3. They definitely cannot be given the FRFSRF order. They are not "lasguns". If I had an ability that made "bolters" shoot more, my heavy bolters would not benefit.

Umm a hot-shot lasgun is a lasgun. Unless you also think that an assault terminator is not a terminator.

(quick everyone from my last thread. Jump all over these guys)

Timmah wrote:

ph34r wrote:They changed them to hot-shot lasguns so people wouldn't be confused and try to argue that their old inquisitorial storm trooper hellguns were AP 3. They definitely cannot be given the FRFSRF order. They are not "lasguns". If I had an ability that made "bolters" shoot more, my heavy bolters would not benefit.

Umm a hot-shot lasgun is a lasgun. Unless you also think that an assault terminator is not a terminator.

(quick everyone from my last thread. Jump all over these guys)

No, a hot-shot lasgun is a hot-shot lasgun. If it is a lasgun, I demand it follows ALL the rules for a lasgun and not just the ones you find convenient.

The specific ranges listed in the order is what gets me. If they meant it to include the hot-shot lasgun, then I would think it would use more generalized terms for the distances, such as something like "3 shots up to half the weapons range, 2 shots for over half the weapons' range" or something equally vague. The way they specify "3 shots for up to 12" and 2 for up to 24"" suggests that they never intended hot-shot lasguns to be included in this order. Rules as Written, it says simply "Lasguns", so I will only be using "Lasguns" for FRFSRF, not "Hot-Shot Lasguns".

Also, it refers to the Hot-Shot Lasgun as both a "hot-shot lasgun" and a "Hellgun" in its description in the IG 'dex. I quote:

"The hot-shot lasgun uses a more powerful, external energy cell. This allows the HELLGUN to project a much more powerful, and penetrating, shot."

This also implies to me that it was not meant to be included in the order. It could go both ways though.

Would I call another player on it if they wanted to use this rule against me? I don't really know, I guess it would depend on how much of TFG he was being. I would probably allow it, as long as he allowed me the same.

I would love it if they could as an IG player. I never thought they could but the thing that pretty much did it for me was when I hears someone say that " a heavy bolter is not a bolter, therefore a hot-shot las gun is not a lasgun" Totally put it in perspective for me.

I would love it if they could as an IG player. I never thought they could but the thing that pretty much did it for me was when I hears someone say that " a heavy bolter is not a bolter, therefore a hot-shot las gun is not a lasgun" Totally put it in perspective for me.