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People read the rules the ammo has a profile BUT it can only replace a BOLTGUNs profile (including combi-weapons as mention in its rules)

Well sure, they both start with "las".

That makes as much sense as the rest of this, anyway.

( I still think we need a facepalm ork icon /)

hmm that makes sense. i think you should be able to fire them from from a certain storm bolters like captains, chaplains, etc. it would be legit but then you get the people who will buy all their sternguard storm bolters with hellfire which is total cheese.

The Angry Commissar wrote:hmm that makes sense. i think you should be able to fire them from from a certain storm bolters like captains, chaplains, etc. it would be legit but then you get the people who will buy all their sternguard storm bolters with hellfire which is total cheese.

One more time ....

Page "Special Issue Ammunition: Each boltgun-armed model in a Sterguard Veteran squad automaticlly comes with several special ammunition types. //use//. Each special ammunition type replaces the boltgun profile (including boltguns part of a combi-weapon) with the one shown here. //more use rule//"

Page 100 "Hellfire Rounds:
//fluff//. If a model carries hellfire rounds, replace their boltgun's profile (including a boltgun on a Space Marine bike) with the following. //profile//
Note that Hellfire rounds can only be used in boltguns"

... So to recap You CAN NOT use special ammo in stormbolters.

This thread should have been subdivided into 3 smaller threads ages ago...

So far, the topics have ranged from:
Hot-shot lasguns and FRFSRF

to

Terminators and Terminator Armor

to

Bolters, storm-bolters, heavy bolters, etc and special ammo

and
Lacannons and FRFSRF (Ok this one was a joke but still)

I think it is pretty clear- Stormtrooper's HS Lasguns cannot use FRFSRF. That should be end of the thread, if nobody can bring anything new to the table.

1 is this.
2 was done.
3 is simple RAW
4 is this.

The last bit is well... yea. YMDC.

We have been focusing upon the wrong words. I now offically change my stance and the Hot shots Do NOT get the FRFSRF Rule.

This is because the orders rules apply to guardsmen. Stormtroopers are not guardsmen but rather they are adeptus arbites. They are never reffered to as a guardsmen only as storm troopers.

Have fun.

The Angry Commissar wrote:my point was that why would they bother to rename it (other than GW flippancy) if they wouldnt be able to use the order?

I don't think they renamed it... They created the HSlas... Hellgun =/= HSlas. I don't even think hellguns would work with FRFSRF.

As to whether it applies, they say lasguns. So we go into the endless circular argument of RAI and RAW, and the square being a rectangle but the rectangle not being a square.

I personally don't think it applies, since a lasgun is a lasgun is a lasgun with STR3 AP0. A lasgun is defined as a weapon with aforementioned stats in the summary. A hotshot lasgun is not STR3 AP0 and therefore is not a lasgun in the strictest sense of the word.

That being said, I wash my hands of this weirdness.

Rico.

Edit: Fox said it. How did we miss it? Perhaps it was the endless backchatter...

focusedfire wrote:We have been focusing upon the wrong words. I now offically change my stance and the Hot shots Do NOT get the FRFSRF Rule.

This is because the orders rules apply to guardsmen. Stormtroopers are not guardsmen but rather they are adeptus arbites. They are never reffered to as a guardsmen only as storm troopers.

Have fun.

R.I.P.

pages 1-6

That is epic. Leave it to focusedfire to find the loophole we all missed. Case closed, Sherlock.

Beautiful. Can I get a quote to give to people?

How about-
Dakka YMDC: spending six pages of fighting over an issue that can be answered by a single post pointing out the one word in the rules you missed.

focusedfire wrote:We have been focusing upon the wrong words. I now offically change my stance and the Hot shots Do NOT get the FRFSRF Rule.

This is because the orders rules apply to guardsmen. Stormtroopers are not guardsmen but rather they are adeptus arbites. They are never reffered to as a guardsmen only as storm troopers.

Have fun.

You're absolutely right. It is the only order that does not say 'unit' when it gives the description of the command. Someone will still argue that Stormtroopers are a 'type' of Guardsmen, I'm sure. But I think it's a fair point.

------------------------------------
Nitpicking, but Stormtroopers are not Adeptus Arbites. Adeptus Arbites are the police force of the imperium, and not affiliated with the Imperial Guard. It's like comparing the New York Police Department and the 121st Infantry Battalion.

This being said, Stormtroopers, Adeptus Arbites, Commissars, etc. are all products of the same training facility. This is called the Schola Progenium, and is essentially where all the kids of rich/powerful folks get trained (as opposed to enlisting and going to Boot Camp).

DoW

DogOfWar wrote:as opposed to enlisting and going to Boot Camp

People enlist to the Imperial Guard? I always thought they just rounded them up and executed those who refused for Heresy.

I was lied to!

In addition to being the rich/powerful folks, you also get the orphaned kids of the rich and powerful folks in the Schola Progenium.

Gwar! wrote:People enlist to the Imperial Guard? I always thought they just rounded them up and executed those who refused for Heresy.

I was lied to!

'Enlisting' is the preferred terminology, of course...

In addition to being the rich/powerful folks, you also get the orphaned kids of the rich and powerful folks in the Schola Progenium.

You are absolutely correct, sir, I had forgotten that little tidbit. Actually I think it is very likely true that their parents might have to be dead, but I'm not certain.

By the way, do you think models with hotshot lasguns can be given the FRFSRF order?

DoW

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:Beautiful. Can I get a quote to give to people?

How about, "I was wrong."

DogOfWar wrote:Nitpicking, but Stormtroopers are not Adeptus Arbites. Adeptus Arbites are the police force of the imperium, and not affiliated with the Imperial Guard. It's like comparing the New York Police Department and the 121st Infantry Battalion.

Sorry about that. It is that they come from the same place and the Arbites wre represented in 4th ed by Iquisitional Storms. I sometimes slip like that. Thanks for the correc. tion

Hey no worries, thank you for finally finding an argument I find concrete enough to change my mind about FRFSRF. Much obliged!

DoW

DogOfWar wrote:By the way, do you think models with hotshot lasguns can be given the FRFSRF order?

DoW

What other Guardsman unit can take hotshot lasguns? Answer: None

Bolter drill (for lysander) lists each type of bolter out instead of just saying bolters.

Vulkan also specifically lists heavy and normal flamers as being twin linked instead of just flamers.

So hotshot lasguns =! lasguns


Ofc as always some problems with this:

Assault terminators would not be considered terminators then.

Yay GW rules.

Overall I would say that FRFSRF does not work with hotshot las guns.



BTW: Does anyone even use stormtroopers anyways? (I mean come on, they are terrible.)

Actually, we sorted the Terminator issue a while back. I can't be bothered explaining it, so feel free to trail through these seven pages looking.

Ironhide wrote:

DogOfWar wrote:By the way, do you think models with hotshot lasguns can be given the FRFSRF order?

DoW

What other Guardsman unit can take hotshot lasguns? Answer: None

I'm really hoping you're being facetious... because I certainly was.

If not, have a look-see at the title of the thread that started this 7 pages of fun!

DoW

Tri wrote:

The Angry Commissar wrote:hmm that makes sense. i think you should be able to fire them from from a certain storm bolters like captains, chaplains, etc. it would be legit but then you get the people who will buy all their sternguard storm bolters with hellfire which is total cheese.

One more time ....

Page "Special Issue Ammunition: Each boltgun-armed model in a Sterguard Veteran squad automaticlly comes with several special ammunition types. //use//. Each special ammunition type replaces the boltgun profile (including boltguns part of a combi-weapon) with the one shown here. //more use rule//"

Page 100 "Hellfire Rounds:
//fluff//. If a model carries hellfire rounds, replace their boltgun's profile (including a boltgun on a Space Marine bike) with the following. //profile//
Note that Hellfire rounds can only be used in boltguns"

... So to recap You CAN NOT use special ammo in stormbolters.

lol i understood i was just saying....

The Angry Commissar wrote:
lol i understood i was just saying....

I think i had just glazed over at that point and was attack any one going near the idea of them being able to fire it.

DogOfWar wrote:

Ironhide wrote:

DogOfWar wrote:By the way, do you think models with hotshot lasguns can be given the FRFSRF order?

DoW

What other Guardsman unit can take hotshot lasguns? Answer: None

I'm really hoping you're being facetious... because I certainly was.

If not, have a look-see at the title of the thread that started this 7 pages of fun!

DoW

Yeah. I figured the laughing ork would give it away. After 7 pages of arguing and then having someone point out the obivious miss, it's really funny!

Ironhide wrote:Yeah. I figured the laughing ork would give it away. After 7 pages of arguing and then having someone point out the obivious miss, it's really funny!

Amen, my transforming friend, amen indeed.

DoW

focusedfire wrote:This is because the orders rules apply to guardsmen.

There is no such limitation. From the "FRFSRF" special rule: "If the order is successfully issued, the ordered unit immediately shoots at any visible target..." Codex:IG p. 36 (emphasis added).

From the "Imperial Guard Orders" rules: "To issue an order the officer must declare which order he is attempting to use and select a single friendly non-vehicle unit within his command radius to carry out the order." Codex:IG p. 29 (emphasis added).

Neither rule limits this order to targeting units consisting solely of "guardsmen".

The reference to guardsmen comes from the fluff description of the order. It creates no limitation. If you argue that FRFSRF can only be used on units of guardsmen because of its fluff description, you must also be suggesting that the "Incoming!" order cannot be issued to a unit that is not in terrain modeled to represent trenches or foxholes.

-GK

GiantKiller wrote:

focusedfire wrote:This is because the orders rules apply to guardsmen.

There is no such limitation. From the "FRFSRF" special rule: "If the order is successfully issued, the ordered unit immediately shoots at any visible target..." Codex:IG p. 36 (emphasis added).

From the "Imperial Guard Orders" rules: "To issue an order the officer must declare which order he is attempting to use and select a single friendly non-vehicle unit within his command radius to carry out the order." Codex:IG p. 29 (emphasis added).

Neither rule limits this order to targeting units consisting solely of "guardsmen".

The reference to guardsmen comes from the fluff description of the order. It creates no limitation. If you argue that FRFSRF can only be used on units of guardsmen because of its fluff description, you must also be suggesting that the "Incoming!" order cannot be issued to a unit that is not in terrain modeled to represent trenches or foxholes.

-GK

True, but it is of note that this is the only order that specifically mentions 'guardsmen,' fluff or otherwise. That's a strong RAI argument in my book, but only if you feel the RAW isn't clear enough.

DoW

Tri wrote:

The Angry Commissar wrote:
lol i understood i was just saying....

I think i had just glazed over at that point and was attack any one going near the idea of them being able to fire it.

fair enough.

Why is this thread still going when the FAQ answers the question...???


Don't tell me Dakka didn't notice the IG FAQ...