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FoxPhoenix135 wrote:Geez, we're still arguing about this?

Maybe people are a little too concerned with the precedent, rather than the instance, of the rule.

In this INSTANCE, I don't think it was RAI to have the hot-shots use this order. It could possibly unbalance the game. Can you imagine a deepstriking unit, with an AP3 weapon, firing 30 times into the rear of a formation? Granted, its at str 3, but that could still wreck some SM's day. Of course... its not like GW has NEVER put out a broken unit before...

Whether its game breaking or not is not the question. For a long time chaos players had the option of a psychic power where you couldn't shoot or assault there Daemon prince.

What is the question is whether Hotshot lasguns are included in the rules. Precedent is the best way forward out of the stalemate. Since StormBolters do not equal a type of bolter (as far as the special ammo is bothered) nether should hotshot lasguns be effected by a rule for lasguns.

What exactly are the rules for FRFSRF and Hotshot-lasguns?

I've honestly got no clue what I'm fighting for. I'm arguing that Lasguns=//=Hotshot-lasguns.

Lacross wrote:additional comparison.

Necron codex:

Gauss Weapons only have Gauss in their names rather than in their type.

addition: the Gauss Weapons rule does not state that weapons with Gauss in their name are Gauss Weapons

Pika_power wrote:What exactly are the rules for FRFSRF and Hotshot-lasguns?

I've honestly got no clue what I'm fighting for. I'm arguing that Lasguns=//=Hotshot-lasguns.

without going mad and quoting word for word. Its an order, if passed the unit gets to fire its "lasguns" with an extra shot (+ wording about range because of rapid fire)

I see. Hotshot lasguns differ by AP and have shorter range?

there is no way i can see anyone claim hs lasguns would qualify .... look under the section weapons at the rear of the codex.

Lasgun and hotshot lasgun have seperate entries, therefore are different weapons, you cant just use the parts of the rules that are convininent for you, the fact they have seperate weapon lines is all you need to know that a hotshot lasgun in fact is NOT a lasgun, it is a hotshot lasgun.

just to add a little spice to this conversation.....

The Witchhunters codex defines stormbolters, bolters, Combi-bolter, and bolt pistol as being "Bolt weapons" for the use of Psycannon Bolts.

Any "Bolt Weapon" carried by the model with Psycannon bolts gets to use the special ammo. Does that qualify Bolt weapons as being a group..........wouldnt that make Las-guns a group, just like Necron "gauss weapons"

If a Combi-bolter counts as bolter then why isnt a HS lasgun a lasgun?

By the RAW logic I see here I can assume that I cannot use Commander Pask's Tank Ace ability no matter what tank I put him on as his ability only applies to the "Leman Russ" that he is in.......not a Leman Russ Battle Tank, nor a Leman Russ Punisher, or a Leman Russ Demolisher.....I would have to put him in a "Leman Russ" to use his ability......

Because they used a DIFFERENT TERM for the group - "bolt-weapons" to describe the class of weapons that fire rocket propelled mass reactive shells.

"lasgun" is the actual name of one of the entries, so cannot be the name of the group in this case.

Is "lasgun" the exact same as "hs lasgun"? No, then they are nto the same weapon.

DJ Illuminati wrote:just to add a little spice to this conversation.....

The Witchhunters codex defines stormbolters, bolters, Combi-bolter, and bolt pistol as being "Bolt weapons" for the use of Psycannon Bolts.

Any "Bolt Weapon" carried by the model with Psycannon bolts gets to use the special ammo. Does that qualify Bolt weapons as being a group..........wouldnt that make Las-guns a group, just like Necron "gauss weapons"

If a Combi-bolter counts as bolter then why isnt a HS lasgun a lasgun

Easy if they they tell you what can use it any of those bolter weapons, FRFSRF doesn't. Also should be noted that in the same codex there are 2 different versions of Psycannon bolts the infantry armoury ( which has stormbolters, bolters, Combi-bolter, and bolt pistol) and the vehicle armoury (which has storm bolters and heavy bolters).

Tri wrote:

DJ Illuminati wrote:just to add a little spice to this conversation.....

The Witchhunters codex defines stormbolters, bolters, Combi-bolter, and bolt pistol as being "Bolt weapons" for the use of Psycannon Bolts.

Any "Bolt Weapon" carried by the model with Psycannon bolts gets to use the special ammo. Does that qualify Bolt weapons as being a group..........wouldnt that make Las-guns a group, just like Necron "gauss weapons"

If a Combi-bolter counts as bolter then why isnt a HS lasgun a lasgun

Easy if they they tell you what can use it any of those bolter weapons, FRFSRF doesn't. Also should be noted that in the same codex there are 2 different versions of Psycannon bolts the infantry armoury ( which has stormbolters, bolters, Combi-bolter, and bolt pistol) and the vehicle armoury (which has storm bolters and heavy bolters).

I am quite sure the distinction was made because you cant put a bolt pistol on a tank, and if they haddnt of specified then people would claim it only affected the frist group listed and shouldnt work on Heavy bolters because they were not specificaly mentioned by name with little signs and a flag to announce the differance.

A combi-bolter shoots a different projectile than a Bolter.....even if it is only once, yet they are still "bolters"


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DJ Illuminati wrote:just to add a little spice to this conversation.....

The Witchhunters codex defines stormbolters, bolters, Combi-bolter, and bolt pistol as being "Bolt weapons" for the use of Psycannon Bolts.

Any "Bolt Weapon" carried by the model with Psycannon bolts gets to use the special ammo. Does that qualify Bolt weapons as being a group..........wouldnt that make Las-guns a group, just like Necron "gauss weapons"

If a Combi-bolter counts as bolter then why isnt a HS lasgun a lasgun?

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By the RAW logic I see here I can assume that I cannot use Commander Pask's Tank Ace ability no matter what tank I put him on as his ability only applies to the "Leman Russ" that he is in.......not a Leman Russ Battle Tank, nor a Leman Russ Punisher, or a Leman Russ Demolisher.....I would have to put him in a "Leman Russ" to use his ability......

No you can't put bolt pistols on a tank but ask your self what is a hurrican bolter? Thats right it 3 TL-Bolters ... that can't take the ammo because it says so.

Tri wrote:No you can't put bolt pistols on a tank but ask your self what is a hurrican bolter? Thats right it 3 TL-Bolters ... that can't take the ammo because it says so.

Fair enough, we shall see what the next FAQ says then......

DJ Illuminati wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
By the RAW logic I see here I can assume that I cannot use Commander Pask's Tank Ace ability no matter what tank I put him on as his ability only applies to the "Leman Russ" that he is in.......not a Leman Russ Battle Tank, nor a Leman Russ Punisher, or a Leman Russ Demolisher.....I would have to put him in a "Leman Russ" to use his ability......

Yes that rule is badly worded. In order to make it work we must assume that they mean all types of Leman Russ.

Tri wrote:

DJ Illuminati wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
By the RAW logic I see here I can assume that I cannot use Commander Pask's Tank Ace ability no matter what tank I put him on as his ability only applies to the "Leman Russ" that he is in.......not a Leman Russ Battle Tank, nor a Leman Russ Punisher, or a Leman Russ Demolisher.....I would have to put him in a "Leman Russ" to use his ability......

Yes that rule is badly worded. In order to make it work we must assume that they mean all types of Leman Russ.

by the same logic, can we assume that FRFSRF is a badly worded rule and to make it work we must assume it means all types of Lasguns.........

Each Leman Russ has seperate names and stats, its not hard to notice that each Leman Russ got its own entry in the Profile page in the back, as well as seperate entries describing each tank.

I understand the counter to my statement will be that they are all under the listing of Leman Russ Squadren, but both Lasguns are listed under the Wargear listings...is it realy any differant.

DJ Illuminati wrote:

Tri wrote:

DJ Illuminati wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
By the RAW logic I see here I can assume that I cannot use Commander Pask's Tank Ace ability no matter what tank I put him on as his ability only applies to the "Leman Russ" that he is in.......not a Leman Russ Battle Tank, nor a Leman Russ Punisher, or a Leman Russ Demolisher.....I would have to put him in a "Leman Russ" to use his ability......

Yes that rule is badly worded. In order to make it work we must assume that they mean all types of Leman Russ.

by the same logic, can we assume that FRFSRF is a badly worded rule and to make it work we must assume it means all types of Lasguns.........

Each Leman Russ has seperate names and stats, its not hard to notice that each Leman Russ got its own entry in the Profile page in the back, as well as seperate entries describing each tank.

I understand the counter to my statement will be that they are all under the listing of Leman Russ Squadren, but both Lasguns are listed under the Wargear listings...is it realy any differant.

Can not make the same jump as there is no such thing as a Leman Russ. There is however a Lasgun. Its one thing to go ... yep they must mean one of these types of Leman russ as there is no "Leman Russ" to use it on ... and quite another to go ... hay if i ignore hot-shot then its the same weapon and i can use the order on it.

===edit===

In fact I'd go as far as say if FRFSRF was meant to work with them then they would have got lasguns and a rule called hotshots.

Hot-Shots
Due to the demands faced by storm troopers they have modified their Lasguns to fire a much deadlier beam. All Storm Trooper's Lasguns count as being AP. However these modifications have also reduced the maximum range to 18"

"Can make the same jump as there is no such thing as a Leman Russ. There is however a Lasgun. Its one thing to go ... yep they must mean one of these types of Leman russ as there is no "Leman Russ" to use it on ... and quite another to go ... hay if i ignore hot-shot then its the same weapon and i can use the order on it."

How can someone assume on one rule and hold such blind faith to the wording of another....... So ignoring the lack of any name after "Leman Russ" is not the same as ignoring the HS from a HS lasgun? I still agree with another person on here that pointed out the fact that they went through the effort of renaming the gun an HS "LASGUN"....... I dont see why they would make such a move if it wasn't intentional. Some would say it is so that Inquisatorial Stormtroopers dont get the AP3.....but doesnt the Codex trump all else..... even if the IG got a AP3 Hellgun the GKs wouldn't because they are locked down with their codex wargear

Why is it hard to say " yep, they mean any type of lasgun, and it looks like they renamed a gun to fit that slot"?

If someone is going to play RAW then, IMHO, go full out, dont pick and choose what leaps of logic are permissable and which are bogus just because the book didnt spend the extra 3 pages it needed to quantify every possible view point of a rule.

Hellguns renamed to Hotshot Lasguns lets think about that for a second.
Hellguns are
Range 24" Str3 AP5 Rapid fire
Hotshot Lasguns are
Range 18" str3 AP3 Rapid fire

It looks more like GW has made a new gun and given it a new name. And include some fluff for long term games so we know what happened to the Hellgun, Which is the name use in all the fluff for storm troopers guns.

Tri wrote:Hellguns renamed to Hotshot Lasguns lets think about that for a second.
Hellguns are
Range 24" Str3 AP5 Rapid fire
Hotshot Lasguns are
Range 18" str3 AP3 Rapid fire

It looks more like GW has made a new gun and given it a new name. And include some fluff for long term games so we know what happened to the Hellgun, Which is the name use in all the fluff for storm troopers guns.

I dont see how fluff applies to a RAW point of view.......

Hotshot lasguns are Hell guns (according to fluff)

Hell guns are modified Lasguns (according to fluff)

ergo Hotshot lasguns are Lasguns.....(according to fluff)

Lets assume the SM have a rule just like FRFSRF...... would it be that all Boltguns get an extra shot.......what would you call a group/class of guns that all shoot lasers....."Lasguns" seems like a good name for that group of weapons, not just a singular weapon, much like how saying M16s refer to both the M16A1 and the M16A2

DJ Illuminati wrote:

Tri wrote:Hellguns renamed to Hotshot Lasguns lets think about that for a second.
Hellguns are
Range 24" Str3 AP5 Rapid fire
Hotshot Lasguns are
Range 18" str3 AP3 Rapid fire

It looks more like GW has made a new gun and given it a new name. And include some fluff for long term games so we know what happened to the Hellgun, Which is the name use in all the fluff for storm troopers guns.

I dont see how fluff applies to a RAW point of view.......

Hotshot lasguns are Hell guns (according to fluff)

Hell guns are modified Lasguns (according to fluff)

ergo Hotshot lasguns are Lasguns.....(according to fluff)

Lets assume the SM have a rule just like FRFSRF...... would it be that all Boltguns get an extra shot.......what would you call a group/class of guns that all shoot lasers....."Lasguns" seems like a good name for that group of weapons, not just a singular weapon, much like how saying M16s refer to both the M16A1 and the M16A2

and i went through that line of reasoning on page 2 with the others

Tri wrote:Ok if you don't want to use Heavy Bolters you want to use special ammo in your example. I will compare Storm-Bolters and Bolters. Storm-Bolters have the same range, strength and AP. The only difference is its Assault 2.

However you cannot use sternguard special ammo in a Storm-Bolter because it is not a bolter. It is a type of bolter in the same way a hot shot lasgun is a type of lasgun.

As far i'm concerned HotShot Lasguns are a completely new gun

Any "Bolt Weapon" carried by the model with Psycannon bolts gets to use the special ammo. Does that qualify Bolt weapons as being a group..........wouldnt that make Las-guns a group, just like Necron "gauss weapons"

If a Combi-bolter counts as bolter then why isnt a HS lasgun a lasgun?


Lasgun isnt a category of weapon, it refers to a 24" s3 ap- rapid fire gun. If FRFSRF said LasWEAPON, then yes you could use it.

But a hotshot lasgun is NOT a lasgun. You CANNOT ignore the fact they have seperate entries, that alone makes them different guns.

I guess we are at a stalemate until someone else can present something new to the conversation.........certainly gave me much to think about,......


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kill dem stunties wrote:Any "Bolt Weapon" carried by the model with Psycannon bolts gets to use the special ammo. Does that qualify Bolt weapons as being a group..........wouldnt that make Las-guns a group, just like Necron "gauss weapons"

If a Combi-bolter counts as bolter then why isnt a HS lasgun a lasgun?


Lasgun isnt a category of weapon, it refers to a 24" s3 ap- rapid fire gun. If FRFSRF said LasWEAPON, then yes you could use it.

But a hotshot lasgun is NOT a lasgun. You CANNOT ignore the fact they have seperate entries, that alone makes them different guns.

No because a Las-cannon would classify as a LasWeapon, and I am sure they didnt want that.....

the "seperate entries" train of thought was already shown to be flawed as Combi-bolters have seperate entries and yet are bolters, as well as every style of Leman Russ having a seperate entry, and yet all of them being classified as a Leman Russ

There is NOTHING to think about.

lasgun is NOT a category of weapons, it is one type of weapon.

The rule says lasguns.

Since lasguns ONLY refers to the aforementioned gun, i.e 24" s3 ap- rapidfire, it doesnt work for the entirely different gun, hotshot lasgun. Period.

Combie weapons are all boltguns with a single shot weapon built on. The weapon actually says that "bolter" can fire every turn.

kill dem stunties wrote:There is NOTHING to think about.

lasgun is NOT a category of weapons, it is one type of weapon.

The rule says lasguns.

Since lasguns ONLY refers to the aforementioned gun, i.e 24" s3 ap- rapidfire, it doesnt work for the entirely different gun, hotshot lasgun. Period.

That is a horrible simple minded approach to the matter.......it is no wonder that debates end with no resolution on these matters...... the point to these conversations is to present every possible angle and viewpoint to a problem and see what makes the most sense.

I am willing to at least consider both sides and be open to the chance that I might be wrong...........But if you are just going to blindly latch onto the version of the rules that does you the most good and instantly discount any opinion that might be different, then please just go play your game and let us do our thing without people shouting their opinions without contributing to the topic at hand.


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Tri wrote:Combie weapons are all boltguns with a single shot weapon built on. The weapon actually says that "bolter" can fire every turn.

and maby Hot Shot Lasguns are lasguns that are 18" with AP3........

still has seperate entries and stats from the weapons they are being compared to.......but you do have a point there.

I will send this out to GW and see what the reply says.......

DJ Illuminati wrote:

kill dem stunties wrote:There is NOTHING to think about.

lasgun is NOT a category of weapons, it is one type of weapon.

The rule says lasguns.

Since lasguns ONLY refers to the aforementioned gun, i.e 24" s3 ap- rapidfire, it doesnt work for the entirely different gun, hotshot lasgun. Period.

That is a horrible simple minded approach to the matter.......it is no wonder that debates end with no resolution on these matters...... the point to these conversations is to present every possible angle and viewpoint to a problem and see what makes the most sense.

I am willing to at least consider both sides and be open to the chance that I might be wrong...........But if you are just going to blindly latch onto the version of the rules that does you the most good and instantly discount any opinion that might be different, then please just go play your game and let us do our thing without people shouting their opinions without contributing to the topic at hand.


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Tri wrote:Combie weapons are all boltguns with a single shot weapon built on. The weapon actually says that "bolter" can fire every turn.

and maby Hot Shot Lasguns are lasguns that are 18" with AP3........

still has seperate entries and stats from the weapons they are being compared to.......but you do have a point there.

I will send this out to GW and see what the reply says.......

Good luck getting a reply

DJ Illuminati wrote:
That is a horrible simple minded approach to the matter.......it is no wonder that debates end with no resolution on these matters...... the point to these conversations is to present every possible angle and viewpoint to a problem and see what makes the most sense.

And he has thought about them, and is presenting the one that makes the most sense to him, as you are doing for yours. This entire forum is an adversarial system, not an inquisitorial one. If you want to change that, I don't recommend starting in a thread already in full swing. Perhaps try discussing the notion elsewhere.

DJ Illuminati wrote:I am willing to at least consider both sides and be open to the chance that I might be wrong...........But if you are just going to blindly latch onto the version of the rules that does you the most good and instantly discount any opinion that might be different, then please just go play your game and let us do our thing without people shouting their opinions without contributing to the topic at hand.

Adversarial system. This is how all the rules work, with some people jumping in and picking the side they believe is correct. I bet that over half of the people saying yes to the FRFSRF rule are guard players. We argue our point, you argue yours. If you bring up enough points that we are unable to address, you win. If we do, we win. If neither of us does, it's a stalemate and it's diced for every time it pops up until a FAQ or new codex comes out. It's the way this forum works.

DJ Illuminati wrote:and maby Hot Shot Lasguns are lasguns that are 18" with AP3........

And maybe Storm Bolters are Bolters that are assault 2.

Yes, they are. The thing is, they are now Hot Shot Lasguns as opposed to ordinary, run of the mill lasguns, meaning they do not get the rules for lasguns.

DJ Illuminati wrote:still has seperate entries and stats from the weapons they are being compared to.......but you do have a point there.

DJ Illuminati wrote:I will send this out to GW and see what the reply says.......

As with the Leman Russ argument, as well as the gauss, I have an answer. If a rule cannot be interpreted to target a specific weapon, any weapon with the terminology it refers to in its name gets it. This satisfies all rules to date. Leman Russ? Check. Hot Shot Lasguns? Check. Gauss Weapons? Check. Storm Bolters? Check.

And the DH codex decides to settle it by using purely internal rules, specifying what gets it, so it's irrelevant to our argument.

Pika_power wrote:
Adversarial system. This is how all the rules work, with some people jumping in and picking the side they believe is correct. I bet that over half of the people saying yes to the FRFSRF rule are guard players. We argue our point, you argue yours. If you bring up enough points that we are unable to address, you win. If we do, we win. If neither of us does, it's a stalemate and it's diced for every time it pops up until a FAQ or new codex comes out. It's the way this forum works.


As with the Leman Russ argument, as well as the gauss, I have an answer. If a rule cannot be interpreted to target a specific weapon, any weapon with the terminology it refers to in its name gets it. This satisfies all rules to date. Leman Russ? Check. Hot Shot Lasguns? Check. Gauss Weapons? Check. Storm Bolters? Check.

If it is a purely adversarial system, then let us all respond with a single blunt yes or no to the question and to hell with being open to understanding the other persons perspective. Shall I limit my thinking to simply assuming you are compleatly wrong if you dont agree with my first knee-jerk response to a rule, and nothing short of a new codex will change my mind. If that is the case then why bother to have a forum to discuss the issue at all. Lets just all wait for the next codex to come out as no matter what stance you or I take we are both wrong in each others eyes.

Adversarial systems are one of the fastest ways to turn a simple debate into a flame war.

I would like to see every possible aspect of the rule pondered and reviewed to the point that we have left no stone unturned........
Do I believe that GW changed the name for a reason.....Yes
Do I think the HS Lasgun is the same as a Lasgun...... no
Do I think it is possible that GW ment to have the term "lasgun" refer to multiple forms of guns (ie Bolt weapons).......yes
Do I think that RAW has gotten so ridiculous to the point that I could make the "Leman Russ" argument at a Tounament and expect to see my view upheld......yes

Where I get hung up on this rule is if Lasgun is a single weapon, or ment to be a group of simular weapons......much like a Leman Russ is a general term for all variations of the same tank. Many of the reasons that I have seen from bothsides of the debate refferance a common link between rules such as Stat profiles on the back page, or over analytical definitions of wording.

Yet many Codexs have rules that show that RAI may hold more credability than a poorly written rule that left a slight loophole.

Why would the call it a HS lasgun when Hellgun would be sufficient, or even to avoid confusion they could have called them Laser rifles, or Purgatus Carbines, or Blast Rifles, or some other name that has no relation to anything else in the codex. The fact that the name changed in the first place is what hold the most weight for me in my position.

as you can see an adversarial system is not effecient when the reasons for viewpoints are more complicated than a simple "No they cant" or "yes they can"
Maby through my long rant I may have shown someone a reason to believe what I see, or even to help others to explain to me better what it is that I am missing and why I am wrong.

I am just a simple RAI guy with RAW tendencies..........I am not saying you are wrong, just asking you to explain better why you are right........

Lol this is ridiculous.

Lasgun is an actual gun in the game. There is no RAW reason to believe any rule that applies to Lasguns should be extended to anything else without a specific clause stating such.

Edit: Similarily, rules that apply to only either Assault Cannons, Autocannons or Lascannons - despite all 3 having the word cannon in the name, cannot be extended to the others.

Dracos wrote:Lol this is ridiculous.

Lasgun is an actual gun in the game. There is no RAW reason to believe any rule that applies to Lasguns should be extended to anything else without a specific clause stating such.

Edit: Similarily, rules that apply to only either Assault Cannons, Autocannons or Lascannons - despite all 3 having the word cannon in the name, cannot be extended to the others.

I think were some of the confusion comes from is simple...... does a Twinlinked Assault Cannon count as an Assault Cannon??

It also has a different name and a different way of shooting....and thus is why so many of us are unsure as to how much a "Name" counts when figuring out what it is........can you see the logic jump that we see? An Assault Bike is a bike. An HK missile is a Missile, a Leman Russ Tank is a Tank.......could a Hotshot Lasgun be a lasgun by grouping???

Dracos wrote:Lol this is ridiculous.

Lasgun is an actual gun in the game. There is no RAW reason to believe any rule that applies to Lasguns should be extended to anything else without a specific clause stating such.

Edit: Similarily, rules that apply to only either Assault Cannons, Autocannons or Lascannons - despite all 3 having the word cannon in the name, cannot be extended to the others.

if you want to use that as an example then cite a rule that involves "cannons"


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Lacross wrote:
Counter Example:
Necrons: Gauss weapons:
note: gauss weapons do not have Gauss in their type but only in their name despite the change in profile.

there is precedent in GW not being through in their rules clarity.

Addition: The Gauss Weapons Rules do not specify that Weapons with Gauss in their name have Gauss Properties


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conclusion: I support this Argument