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WARNING: THE CONTENT OF THIS POST IS BELIEVED TO BE OF A HIGHLY FLAMMABLE MATERIAL PRONE TO CAUSE WARS UPON COMBUSTION. PLEASE READ THE FULL CONTENTS OF THE POST BEFORE ATTEMPTING TO REACT TO ITS CONTENTS. Or at least i think I heard it could cause flame wars... Poll is to determine saturation of opinions in the thread.
Any way, first off I am well aware of the fluff issue that the Chapter's geneseed, female Marines are impossible. However, I might have found a loophole.
The Warp.
My query, could the Warp (namely the powers of Tzeench and Slaanesh) Corrupt a geneseed to the point to where females are viable marines, to the point where males are un-compatible? And what would the rest of the Imperium think of them, if using warp-stained gene therapy would even be allowed.
Possible means of Warp exposure I've thought of:
a) Prolonged travel through the Warp causing taint.
b) A Chaos assault resulting in corruption of geneseed.
c) Traitor chapter takes their seed with them to reinforce lost marines.
This isn't an excuse to have female Ultramarines, or one in every chapter. A female marine would be an isolated incident, or at the most a single chapter. Traitor chapters would be more likely to have females, but can the Warp even alter something so?
Honestly, The Warp can turn a chapter of Space Marines into super-soldier bunny rabbits. Being the realm of "unreality" there's not much limiting what it can do.
I think the real issue is whether it's a thematically good idea/how well it fits in stylistically with the rest of the universe.
Anuvver fing - when they do sumfing, they try to make it look like somfink else to confuse everybody. When one of them wants to lord it over the uvvers, 'e says "I'm very speshul so'z you gotta worship me", or "I know summink wot you lot don't know, so yer better lissen good". Da funny fing is, arf of 'em believe it and da over arf don't, so 'e 'as to hit 'em all anyway or run fer it.
Da Boss wrote:No no, Richard Dawkins arresting the Pope is inherently hilarious. It could only be funnier if when it happens, His Holiness exclaims "Rats, it's the Fuzz! Let's cheese it!" and a high speed Popemobile chase ensues.
- Marines have to give up their humanity, why should gender be of any use to them?
- the Emperor created the Space Marines "as is", changing his plans is utter HERESY - why space marines? There are payloads of possible females to do without need to justify them.
- Design. Enclosed Power armor does show you what about the wielder?
- inflammatory concept. Need to offend / get attention ?
- mutated geneseed does not allow to create new marines. Really want to do mutated creatures that cannot be identified as based on human beeings anymore? Maybe the IW'ws failure could hint on the reasons why chaos'marines' steal geneseed from the Imperium
instead of harvesting their own.
- the process of turning a human into a space marine isnt always successful and also only a few of the millions of humans are possible recruts.
Your solutions:
A) No. Warp travel is so common, such effects would be noticed.
B) Not impossible. But still good question: How? Corrupted geneseed tends to a) stop functioning; b) creates only mutants;
Willfully sabotage a loyal chapter so it may only recrut females wont stop them. With 50% of the populace at hand, there is no
really drawback. Plus if the imperials find out how to access 100% of all humans as possible candidates, chaos is totally screwed.
C) Funny. So the traitors stole geneseed, but can only use it with females?
Maybe => D)
-slanesshi marines ( renegades, traitors,... ) become something undefined like the demons of it?
loophole closed
Target locked,ready to fire
In dedicatio imperatum ultra articulo mortis.
H.B.M.C :
We were wrong. It's not the 40k End Times. It's the Trademarkening.
Ah, so my idea was right out the window before I thought of it. Didn't think of the geneseed itself presenting the problems. So no chick marines except in fanart... for the loyalists.
But, could you clarify your D option, I think your saying marines turning into daemonettes might be reasonable.
Any how, my main question was answered. Thanks to you all for your opinions.
My opinion: Its a Sci Fi fantasy game, so in "reality" you can do what-ever you want.
Those small minded individuals that scream "its not allowed"...well, aside from worrying about their grasp of reality outside their gaming rooms, you have to admit that even the current cannon for the WH40K universe allows for all kinds of "things" to happen.
The psuedo science used to explain half the things that happen in WH40K are no better than the suggestions the OP has come up with. However, you could probably have more fun by forgetting the Space Marines.......
What if someone like Fabius Bile chanced upon a genetic manipulation that worked on men but made them into abominations, but produced outstanding and stable super warriors from women!
He then raids numerous Imperial worlds to harvest female slaves for his experiments, and sets about getting corrupt Mechanicus Priests to construct armour suited to his new army!
In game terms, they would be the equal of the Marines in Strength and Toughness, but would be faster due to their armour! lets say they had an armour save of 4+ rather than 3+, they would have +1 attack on a standard Marine, and a Ld of 10 ( women focus better than men! )
Now, IMHO, that would make a much more interesting scenario then simply revamping the Astartes...cause less "friction" and ultimately gives you more modelling and design options.....I mean, they could be taller than Marines, like those Warrior women in the Eisenhorn and Ravenor books by Dan Abnett, which then, you could give them +1 to their strength.....
"Sisters of Chaos/Daughters of Carnage"
Indeed, Delephont, much more interesting than simple female marines. The only problems I *might* see would be the making a codex for them, but I might try if I get used to 40k and have the time and money to try.
If anyone can think of a more appealing/original name than the "Chaos SoB" I thought of, be my guest.
IIRC, now, in this time period, females cannot be riflemen under the Geneva Convention. I doubt this has changed much in the future (SOB are exempt because they aren't really soldiers, they are the bodyguards of the priesthood and the arm of the Emperor's Cult for hunting down witches/daemons) Chaos girl marines makes more sense to me. As some have said though, powered armor leaves a LOT to the imagination.
Arctik_Firangi wrote:Spelling? Well excuse me, I thought we were discussing the rules as written.
Don't worry, I'm a certified speed freek Know who else are speed freeks? and
I read somewhere that the reason for the Marines to be Male only is the fact that the male physiology has something to do with it. Something along the lines of a male only hormone or reaction to the gene-seed during their "transformation" is what prevents any females from gaining super-human status... and if i recal correctly it was either, 100% or ridiculously high rate of failure for females to accept the new organs and incorperate them in the same manor as their male counterparts...
So i do not believe it was a sexist call, but rather a practical one to save gene-seeds from being wasted/gambled on a low/very low chance of success.
Female soldiers are fairly common in the Imperial Guard.
The thing about the Space Marines is, they're very far removed from most of the Imperium. They were created by the Emperor himself eons ago, and they remain a largely separate branch from the rest of the Imperium (much like the AdMech).
The "elite soldiers" of the Imperium are the Stormtroopers, primarily. The Skittarri, Sisters of Battle, and Space Marines are all extremely rare specialists, who are partially outside of the Imperium's domain (being loyal first to the AdMech, Ecclesiarchy, and Chapter/Primarch, respectively).
Anuvver fing - when they do sumfing, they try to make it look like somfink else to confuse everybody. When one of them wants to lord it over the uvvers, 'e says "I'm very speshul so'z you gotta worship me", or "I know summink wot you lot don't know, so yer better lissen good". Da funny fing is, arf of 'em believe it and da over arf don't, so 'e 'as to hit 'em all anyway or run fer it.
Anuvver fing - when they do sumfing, they try to make it look like somfink else to confuse everybody. When one of them wants to lord it over the uvvers, 'e says "I'm very speshul so'z you gotta worship me", or "I know summink wot you lot don't know, so yer better lissen good". Da funny fing is, arf of 'em believe it and da over arf don't, so 'e 'as to hit 'em all anyway or run fer it.
I like the idea of a bunch of marines making a warp jump and when they leave the warp have all changed gender! The only problem with this theory is that before the ship could even enter an Imperial sector some inquisitor would have already called exterminus upon the chapter, its home world, its ship, probably the solar system the chapter reentered real space in and most deffinately every planet the chapter ever visited! The inquisiton always wins no matter the cost and the chapter of feminine marines would seem to have never existed!
"Innocence Proves Nothing... Except That You've Done Nothing Wrong"
Welcome to the Daemonhunters, the ranks of the exalted Ordo Malleus and their cannon fod....er, I mean, loyal allies. Remember...the only ones who need fear the righteous might of the Ordo Malleus are the Daemonic.
quote: Dashofpepper: ...sad rivulet of demon prince tears. He ponders for a moment, then lashes the demon hunters into him. He assaults them, kills a terminator or two....and then demon hunters being demon hunters....they proceed to wtfpwn him. Second player leaves the table...
I didnt even know there were 2 missing legions. Since when?
"Innocence Proves Nothing... Except That You've Done Nothing Wrong"
Welcome to the Daemonhunters, the ranks of the exalted Ordo Malleus and their cannon fod....er, I mean, loyal allies. Remember...the only ones who need fear the righteous might of the Ordo Malleus are the Daemonic.
quote: Dashofpepper: ...sad rivulet of demon prince tears. He ponders for a moment, then lashes the demon hunters into him. He assaults them, kills a terminator or two....and then demon hunters being demon hunters....they proceed to wtfpwn him. Second player leaves the table...
killkrazy, I just went on a strange and disturbing journey through the youtube as a result of that link.
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Kilkrazy wrote:It is a well know fact that the two missing legions of Sace Marines are women, being hidden for millenia by the Emporer for mysterious purposes.
Fact??
Missing legions? Who lost them?
Target locked,ready to fire
In dedicatio imperatum ultra articulo mortis.
H.B.M.C :
We were wrong. It's not the 40k End Times. It's the Trademarkening.
Delephont wrote:The biggest mistake I see happening here, are people trying to apply real world science and logic to a Sci Fi fantasy setting.
All this bull about how gene-seed can't be accepted by women...blah,blah,blah.....the truth! GW didn't want to do female Space Marines...period!
Both are true. Games Workshop wrote the finer points of background (Space Marine implants) to explain the overarching design choices (male Space Marines) they made. That's also why the background is made to accommodate ground battles with little orbital support, that's why technology has been designed to make close combat a realistic option, and that's why The Warp exists at all.
That doesn't make it any less a part of the background, though.
Is it a sexist call, who knows, it sure doesn't balance out considering the breakdown of gender in humanity does it?
From an in-universe standpoint or an out-of-universe standpoint?
From an in-universe standpoint it does make sense. Space Marines were created for the Great Crusade, which required a huge expansion of the human population. Sending a woman to fight reduces a population's ability to grow more than sending a man to fight does. Additionally, men build up more muscle and grow taller.
If the process for creating a Space Marine would need a great deal more research to be adopted to both sexes, choosing males makes more sense than choosing females, or attempting to apply it to both and risking gene-seed decay/mutation, abnormally high death rates at implantation, or a large delay in when the Crusade can begin.
From an out-of-universe standpoint, Space Marines certainly sell well in their current incarnation. I don't think Games Workshop would want to rock the boat with them.
I don't know enough about Games Workshop's marketing strategy to say anything for sure there, though.
Anuvver fing - when they do sumfing, they try to make it look like somfink else to confuse everybody. When one of them wants to lord it over the uvvers, 'e says "I'm very speshul so'z you gotta worship me", or "I know summink wot you lot don't know, so yer better lissen good". Da funny fing is, arf of 'em believe it and da over arf don't, so 'e 'as to hit 'em all anyway or run fer it.
If people want a boob army they should just play chaos or SoB. I don't get why people want to break the fluff over their knee when a viable option already exists. Fifty bucks thats the reason SoB was made anyway, to make for space marines with cleavage to sell to people who like the idea.
Truth be told I could care less, I just rather not play with those who ignore the setting in which the game is set.
The two unknown legions were most likely not female. There is a quote in The Lightning Tower that goes something like "Their separate tragedies had seemed like aberrations. Had they, in fact, been warnings that no one had heeded?"
This definitely does not imply that they could have been female.
Even if you did have female space marines, which couldn't happen for the reasons 1hadhq said, it wouldn't make any difference modeling wise because in all that armor and shaved bald heads for practical reasons, all the intense steroids that SM need to be SM would make the female marines look exactly like male for any modeling purposes. You would just say "my marines are female" and your opponent would look at you funny and say "uh sure, whatever".
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Given the what a male have to go through to become a space marine and the low chances of surviving and succeeding, would almost be guro fodder should the candidate be female. For the end result is some horribly muscled bound specimen who looks like it had been ingesting 10 or more kilos of human growth hormones daily for 10-20 years
IMO They are completly unfluffy, I mean cut and dry it says that the gene seed can only be accepted by males. Now throw in the warp and yeah you can have some female marines, but they could only ever be accepted by chaos cause everyone knows how The Imperium doesn't accept mutations which is what female Space Marines would be. And its not comparing real world science to sci-fi, its just going by fluff look it up only friggin males bodies can accept the friggin gene seed jeez lol. So Yes Female Chaos Space Marines, No Female Imperial Space Marines
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I totally agree. When I made the statement regarding real world science and Sci Fi, I was refering to people trying to justify the fact that Space Marines are male from a real world point of view.....what you've stated is quite correct, Space Marines are male cause GW wrote the fluff that way....period!
If people want a female alternative, they either go with what GW has provided, or create something different....IMHO, thats the end of the story.....next!
The one thing that repels me from female Marines is that they would be S4/T4. Have you looked at the things that have those stats?
Would you like your women to look like that? I'll stick with the S3/T3 girls, thank you.
Yeah, of course you could argue "My FEMELE SPESS MARHEENZ have geneseed even superior to that of puny NORMAL Space Marines and a much higher muscle density, therefore they look like this:"
Poll is to determine saturation of opinions in the thread.
HERESY 
loophole closed 
)
and 
about 1250
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