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Recently I've come to the conclusion (as some of you may already be aware) that I miss my Squats . I know they got retconned consumed by the Tyranids after the big intergalactic U-turn invasion from outside the galaxy. But for the sake of some quick fluff, let's say one of those small worlds that got sucked into the warp during the Age of Isolation was a deep-space resource extraction rig, and they've been caught in a warp-based if-then loop for the last several millenia. Maybe a few hundred years have passed for them inside the warp, and in the meantime, they've collected a few space-hulky bits to add to their station so they could get a functioning warp-drive (and a nice little fortress to boot ). Insert appropriate fluff involving Geller-fields and minimal psyker presence or such to allow for not being all Chaosy. Fast forward the material universe and "poof" there's a bunch of Squats firing up the warp-drive to return to real-space, followed by a lot of celebratory drinking, followed by quite a bit of "what the hell happened while we were gone?"

My question revolves around the army list, not the fluff. Fluff is relatively easy (and the typical result is usually going be "cool" or "how dare you violate canon" while scratching your eyes out) and would be better suited for an article if I decide to go this route. Model conversions I already have a set of guidlelines for (although I wouldn't turn down any helpful thoughts either). Barring going through every codex in existence and doing a "pick and choose" as either an APOC list or custom 'dex, what (currently "legal") codex (with or without allies) do you guys think would best suit the general tone/composition of the Squats? I have a few ideas of my own, mostly based on how the stats compared to other races "back in the day", but I'd like to hear what everyone else thinks just to get some fresh input. I have already accepted that nothing is going to be a perfect match-up, but I'd like to get it in the ballpark so it's easier to drag around to pick up games.

Thoughts?
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Quick edit so everyone knows the Squats I'm referring to. If you don't remember the Space Wolf fortress (based on Lucan and presided over by Enoch) being "typical" for a marine chapter, you probably don't recall them as I do. (yes, I am that much of a dinosaur). The squats I'm referring to could wrestle with SM's, gunline with the IG (Imperial Army at the time) were tougher than SM's and while only having a "normal" human strength were so stocky they could hump around multi-meltas and plasma cannons, and didn't even break a sweat over heavy bolters or missle launchers. And that was without power armor. They were less likely to break and run than even SM's and they could be found in any branch of the Imperium (except the SM, but including the Inquisition if you can believe that from the modern fluff), although usually the army. The drawback was they didn't move as fast as other troops (slower movement rate and initiative), and psykers were wussy on the rare occasion one popped up. Later on, the boys at GW decided that squats who lived past the normal lifespan of 400 yrs suddenly became Living Ancestors and developed mondo defensive psychic powers, but I'm not worried so much about that, I'm looking a little earlier. The pictorial/miniature "fluff" seems to show a predilection for projectile weapons, especially stubbers and bolters, as well as artillery and tanks. If you go on to the fluff that was generated after the initial RT release, they didn't change much, except to ass the aforementioned Living Ancestors, Exo-Armor (Terminator suits), warbikes/trikes (including exo-suit/trikes). Epic added the thing with the "super-heavy" fortress crawlers as their "titan" equivalent.
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You know, the more I look at this, the more I think they may have killed off Squats because they were too OP...

I'd go with Imperial Guard. Squats were all about the big warmachines if I recall, which fits with the tank-heavy aesthetic of the IG. Use Squat bikes as rough riders, Squats in exo-armor as stormtroopers or Ogryn, and Thudd guns as... autocannons?

Somebody on Dakka has a Squat Guard army. You should be able to find them in the gallery.

Guard if you want to keep things simple. Guard w/ Inquisition Allies if you don't.

Yep, Daemonhunters units seem most appropriate, exo-armour 'HearthGuard' squats as GK termies, all the tanks you can eat from Imp G units, standard squat units used as guardsman units. Bikes from the GK choices.

Do you have a pic of squats? I keep hearing about them but never seen 'em.

MGS I thought you had a deep seeded hate for squats

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squat_(Warhammer_40,000)

Thanks that explains a lot.

Frenzied Potato wrote:MGS I thought you had a deep seeded hate for squats

The squat adeptus mechanicus was one of my all-time favorite minis. Some of it was daft though esp the exo armour (which I liked) on bikes (the combo of which was stupid).

I don't remember saying I hated them?

Excellent, Brothers in Arms. My stunties are the military arm of my RT era Rogue Traders force (Even his flagship is captained by a squat pirate). I am currently getting my head around 5th and have chosen to go for a counts as IG force as this seemed the simplest route. If you use them primarily as Veterans it gets around the being better than the average guardsman problem and means you can have more special weapons (sigh) and slightly techy-er feel. My Exo chaps will be ogryns, Hover boarders as Rough Riders, Mole mortars as squad mortar teams etc. Luckily my RT force is substantial and so I can lift the bits out I want for 5th. Unfortunately all my chaps are bolter armed for RT but I'm figuring this won't be a problem.

I put a few picks up yesterday of WIP (have been playing rogue trader with them unpainted until I finish all the converting) and these should give you a feel of what I'm going for.





I'm going for more of a hard sci-fi look but you can never get away from the comic 80's GW space opera look entirely (although this seems to irritate some!)

meant to ask....are you converting your own, using (and probably having to convert) the older plastics or selling your first born for metals? Maybe you're someone crazy enough to still have them from the eighties like me. (I believe this is why my chaps survived Hive Fleet Buffet as they couldn't be found in the back of my cupboard ).

Oh and squat sentinels are easy and cool looking.

You could always just play the original Rogue Trader, there are still a few of us out there who do just that... Or use the IG list as people have already suggested. Another option is to use the Ork list, being cut off for so long maybe they have regressed a bit?
Mick

Have to side with Mick. If you have a couple of opponents (or one with a range of forces) who already play or you could convert to RT then I'd do that. My force was designed and has been re-assembled for RT (I owned some in the late eighties but mainly played WHFB, Bloodbowl and Epic) I started playing RT a couple of years ago and as long as you are willing to put in some effort you can get great rewards. The only reason I'm working out my 'counts as' force is so I can enter the doubles tourney (and show the world that not all the squats dissapeared) and play against one of my friends who has forsaken the old ways and turned to 5th (and of course meet new opponents who weren't around in the good old days....sigh). RT is different but much more to my taste and will always be my game of choice. The ability to create and adapt units and truly develop your forces really appeals to me and my playing style.

@Dances with Squats: Some good-looking figs you got there. Unfortunately, during my "hiatus" from gaming, I gave away my figs to a newcomer to the hobby to get them started, so I'll probably be starting over from scratch which probably means heavy conversion to newer plastics.

Playing RT would be great, since I have access to the Squat army list in the Compendium, and as you pointed out, you can mod your units to be what you want. But as I'm just getting back into things, I'm looking for something "legal" to use for pickup games until I have a core gaming group again. I did give some thought to the Ork codex, as well as the SM codex (and variant).

IG seemed like a logical first choice for me as well, with some DH/WH allies, but when I started really thinking about it, there were a fair number of inconsistencies.
WS: 4, T: 4 and Ld 9. Mech-wise, if I recall correctly, when they started developing the Squats for Epic, it seemed like their vehicles fell into "fast attack" and superheavy, without much in between.

Statwise, Orks look pretty close at first glance, except for the crappy BS and Ld. But digging deeper, the lack of armor and just plain "strange" tech doesn't quite fit.

SM look to be a good match at first as well (techmarines w/ servo-harnesses, drop pods = termites, thunderfires, fast attack vehicles, land speeders = gyrocopters, termies = exo-suits, etc). My concern there is that ends up making them a little too OP, and doesn't leave much in the way of "line troops" (although scouts + DH/WH stormies might make that up).

I'm not in a financial position to do a "backup" army until I can find a group that might let me get more creative, so I'm trying to work out something that can at least "counts as" until then. I know I'm going to have to give up something in terms of matching the squat "ideal". I don't think IG quite reflects that they are good at getting stuck in if they have to, and SM's overdo it (I can hear the cries of "cheese" from the other side of the table already). That's about where my thinking had gotten me to when I made the post. Which is basically "stuck". Thanks for the feedback, and any other ideas would be welcomed.

This makes me all warm inside. I had to dig out my old red RT-compendium and read a bit. *happy* Maybe represent them with the rules for a shooty tyranid army? Tyranid warriors will represent the hearthguard in exoarmor and the MCs will be bigger vehicles and robots. Excellent leadership (until the brainbugs are dead at least...). Good Toughness. Nasty shooting. Some pretty moveable units to represent the bikes etc (and winged/leaping warriors = exoarmor on bikes). Zoanthropes as thuddguns.

Cons: No useful deepstrikers (so no moles), suboptimal troop choices (nothing that _really_ fits the flavour unless you start ) and a lot of CC-only units that you can't easily use.

@Mellon: Hadn't taken a look at the Tyranid 'dex yet, I'll see if I can scrounge one up from the local used book store. Might take some pretty fast-talking to slide that past as a "counts as" though.

jinshiryuu wrote:
Playing RT would be great, since I have access to the Squat army list in the Compendium, and as you pointed out, you can mod your units to be what you want. But as I'm just getting back into things, I'm looking for something "legal" to use for pickup games until I have a core gaming group again. I did give some thought to the Ork codex, as well as the SM codex (and variant).

That's understandable, I'm aiming towards a 'counts as' because I mainly only play against one opponent at the moment (someone I've been playing against for my entire wargaming hobby) and I wanted to increase the number of new friends/opponents and enter some tourneys. I wanted to use my chaps as something more pokey than IG but decided it was easier not to; due to the amount of irrational squat hate out there (If they are slightly underpowered I figured more people would accept them). Also the original models didn't have PA but Flak instead so it would have taken extreme converting (on my 80-odd infantry) and they are already keeping me awake at nights!

jinshiryuu wrote:if I recall correctly, when they started developing the Squats for Epic, it seemed like their vehicles fell into "fast attack" and superheavy, without much in between.

Yep this is a problem. I'm currently making an epic force and the original (2nd ed) did have this problem. Luckily I discovered NetEpic and this has balanced them out slightly. I have a converted predator, Landraider (so WIP its still in its box) and Landspeeders in my RT force and couldn't work out how to shoe horn them into 5th. I've also got Trikes and Thudd Guns that are unusable as IG. I may have to consider the SM's as an alternative and swap them around from time to time.

Its going to be interesting to see what you come up with as I've been trying to get my head around it for some time.


This was my first model attempt after a hiatus of 10-12 years (with some occasional gaming but no real army building) and inspired me to wave the Squat Flag. Now my Avatar.



My new Veterans Lanspeeders (although I'd like to make enough to mechanise my whole force.) because if you're a Squat walking everywhere sucks.

sorry not trying to highjack (this is the first time I've showed anyone outside my constant opponent or my wife anything I've done). Can't wait to see you WIPs for converted squats. Might help motivate me more.

Oh and tyranids? Mellon.....Thats brilliant......if slightly sacrilegious (are we fighting from inside their stomachs?) That may be interesting, will have to see what the new dex in the new year brings.

Dances with squats you have to get htat GW squat mini .. get the subscription then get the mini than cancel the subscription. Anyways cool squats.

Cheers for that.

Is the subscription mini the white dwarf in space suit I saw on another thread?

mmmm tempting.........

It's the one with the servo-arm holding up the Black Gobbo dressed as a "gray". I love the mini, but I'll keep an eye out for it to pop up on eBay or something once the dust from the initial stampede settles. I'm not interested in a subscription to WD, I've got plenty of TP already.

Don't sweat the "hijack", go ahead and show them off. I'm looking for ideas and inspiration. If anyone else has pics to share, please do so. Anything to spark the imagination and discussion is great.

I briefly entertained using the space puppies (since Squats are good at getting "stuck in") with some WH allies to represent the Squat version of "Whiteshields". Then I realized I'd probably be slathered in cheddar and bodily removed from the premises. And what is with all the Squat hating? I know I was out of the hobby for awhile, but is everyone so in bed with the canon that fielding an army of Squats violates their sense of propriety?

And the Squat in the sentinel rocks. I am so stealing that idea. Even if I go SM codex, I'm doing one (maybe a tad more armored, but open enough to see the driver) with something like the assault drill from FW and calling it counts as dread.

SW may be the way forward. Does mean you can have proper Devastator squads again.....Ah Squat tactical squads where any or all of them could take a heavy bolter. How you are going to mount a squat on a giant wolf though........

What ideas do you have for converting them? I've seen various ideas from fantasy dwarves to stuntifying cadians.

Firstly, kudos on the project, I've been missing the Squats myself too, they've been away far too long. You're definitely right they deserve a resurgence.

I agree the IG stats will be easier to pass but as said earlier it leaves the squats underpowered.

I do like the idea of using the scout profile, it can cover troops and also bikes. Take the AT bike profile for the trikes.

Was not in the hobby long enough to remember the Squat profiles properly but what about using Thunderfire profiles for Thudds and Mole mortars combined, ie one gun two roles. May be wrong but just an idea?

@dances with squats, forgot to say love the LS conversion BTW, so much better than the storm.

Dances with Squats wrote:Ah Squat tactical squads where any or all of them could take a heavy bolter.

And could move and fire with them...maybe I should ask each opponent before game if he's ok with the whole army having the slow and purposeful rule...

Dances with Squats wrote:How you are going to mount a squat on a giant wolf though........

Roller skates and long reins. I'll probably do some sort of trike or quad "counts as" if I use those at all. Anything that doesn't make sense I'll just pretend isn't in the 'dex.

Dances with Squats wrote:What ideas do you have for converting them? I've seen various ideas from fantasy dwarves to stuntifying cadians.

Assuming I go SW, I'll use shortened marine arms/legs and maybe (shortened) Cadian torsos so the short arms still reach. A lot of grey stuff and sanding after that to bring the lines together. I'll probably track down some "beards and braids" for character heads and sculpt a helmet with the Squat faceplate and cast my own in resin. A lot of the Space Wolf decorations can be used as well, since GW started using the "saxon" imagery for Squats back when the pups were still what would be called a "codex" chapter now.
[EDIT] I just went and looked at the new SW models with a critical eye and I have to say, I'm not impressed. I'll probably be looking to fantasy dwarves or chaos marauders for extras. As well as looking to see what bitz might be available from other sources.

I'll probably mod some of the standard vehicles to make them a little more "mobile fortress" looking but I think I'll end up scratchbuilding epic-style gyrocopters for the landspeeders. And like I said earlier, I'll probably do some "mining drill" conversions on some sentinels for dreads. As Lennysmash pointed out, I'll probably do something with the TF Cannon for Mole Mortars.

Going with either the vanilla SM or SW codex is sounding more and more like what I need to do, I think I'll drop by the FLGS and leaf through the C:SW and see how it looks. Then maybe I can get started converting. I'll probably make a few resin casts of some stuff I have to test the procedure before I start chopping up styrene.

Found this over at rafm while I was looking around. Praetorian Squat anyone?

Lennysmash wrote:
Was not in the hobby long enough to remember the Squat profiles properly but what about using Thunderfire profiles for Thudds and Mole mortars combined, ie one gun two roles.

I seem to remember a sly nod to the much missed squat artillery in the WD designers notes when this came out.

jinshiryuu wrote:
A lot of the Space Wolf decorations can be used as well, since GW started using the "saxon" imagery for Squats back when the pups were still what would be called a "codex" chapter now.

Seem to remember something about the SW being one of the few SM chapters that had any respect for the abhumans (only squats though) because of their drink/fight/eat style. This may have been waffle by other forum goers or something random I remember from an ancient WD. Like the idea though. Barbarians in space fits well, as long as people realise this doesn't mean "backward" but rather fierce, professional/competent and brave. When the Norse (Viking being a Verb i.e to go Viking meant raiding and expedition-ing and was simply picked up and used in later history texts as a noun) were prominent they were a force to be reckoned with (my surname is proof as it still exists in england and it's etymological root means "spear carrying chosen bodyguard of the lord" from the anglo-saxon/norse languages). Just because you're violent and angry doesn't mean you're stupid. My force are professional mercenary raiders, we wouldn't last in a protracted fight (I've discovered this trying to take hills through footslogging against the namby pamby eldar) so the hit hard, fast and decisively is something I see as a key Squat strategy.

I'm all excited now...going to have to read the SM codex and see what I think. Oh and I've been toying with the idea of using a sentinel cab as the front of a gyrocopter for RT. Easy to add to, squats fit and has the sort of look I'm going for. The fantasy dwarf range has some faceguards that are suitably archaic looking if thats any use.


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Oh and have a look at unite all actions squats at

http://s55.photobucket.com/albums/g141/uniteallaction/40k/My%2040k%20Squats/

just found them, they're a different take on the theme to mine but interesting (more inline with what GW were starting with 2nd - slayers etc)

@Jinshiryuu and Dances: Thanks for the acclamation. It's greatly appreciated! As far as representing goes, there have been some very creatve "counts as tyranids" armies presented here on dakka over the year I've been here. My favourite was an army of giant robots in a clear animemecha/transformers style. Couldn't find the creators name now though :-/ Most players are concerned with only four things when facing a counts-as-army. In descending order:

1 Be creative and consistent (and not too cheezy) in your army. This will be very easy to achieve with a fully converted squat force.

2 The same size of base. Important for CC, Blasts, deployment, movement etc etc. Easy to achieve.

3 Easy to understand what is what. For example: every model with a squat grenade launcher counts as having a Deathspitter. This can be greatly helped by a clearly written "what is what", maybe even including pictures, on the armylist you hand to your opponent.

4 Roughly the same size of model overall. Important for cover, targeting etc. Easy to achieve with a little thought ahead.

Generally speaking, most players outside of very competitive tournaments enjoy playing against a lovingly built and converted army so much that they can live with a bit of confusion.

Please keep posting your pics. I'm enjoying this thread :-)


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Aha: Found it: Migsulas T.W.A.R.-system, counts as tyranids: Here is the awesome 12-page thread. Last page got pics of the completed army.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/175638.page

Mellon wrote:4 Roughly the same size of model overall. Important for cover, targeting etc. Easy to achieve with a little thought ahead.

This was actually something I was thinking about earlier today while I was jotting down some rough ideas and sketches. I want to shorten them up enough to make it obvious they are Squats, but at the same time, I've never been fond of the way minis (for gaming anyway) look when they're on built-up bases. But without that, I'm concerned some players may have "complaints" about being able to make better use of cover. With the new cover rules, it's really less of a cover issue and more of an LOS issue, which I feel is going to be a two-edged sword, and should balance out (eg: "What's going on out there?" - "Shall I describe it to you? Or would you like me to get you a box?").

Found this over on CMoN. This is similar to what I had in mind...

I wouldn't worry too much about if your models are 27mm high instead of 33mm. It is rarely an issue, even in very hardore competitive play. Most armies are modded in one way or another so exact model size and shape is not really a factor.

The key here is "roughly". You could have a 6" high mechanical monstrosity with several arms with mining drills, a bulky frame and a handful of big guns and say "This is a Rockdriller XVII hazardous environment mining vehicle modified for combat purposes. It counts as a carnifex" and most people would say "sure, I can clearly see that". On the other hand if you take an average squat infantry model with a big beard and says "This is my venerated ancestor. He counts as a hive tyrant." people will be more reluctant to agree. Just keep things reasonable and you should be fine.

Most people will enjoy playing against a creative and wellcrafted army so much that they will not be bothered in the least about your infantry squad being completely out of LoS behind that low hedge. Just get ready to recieve some box-related puns when fighting eldar :-)

Mellon wrote:I wouldn't worry too much about if your models are 27mm high instead of 33mm... Just keep things reasonable and you should be fine.

Thanks for the response on that. I'm coming back into all of this after a long hiatus, and things have gotten a lot more competitive than when I left. Although I'm starting to see that a lot of that may be a vocal minority and most players are still pretty laid back.

Mellon wrote:Just get ready to recieve some box-related puns when fighting eldar :-)

That's ok, that's what venerable dreadnoughts are for.

I'm leaning more and more towards going the SM codex route, and thinking whirlwinds might make good self-propelled Thudd Guns" (with the right conversions of course), and using TF cannons for Mole Mortars.

Stunty marines are brilliant but the simple level of converting I'm doing now is almost making me cry. Just the sheer numbers.....hehehehehe

jinshiryuu do you have a points limit target for this project or is it going to just keep expanding as you go along?

jinshiryuu wrote:I'm coming back into all of this after a long hiatus, and things have gotten a lot more competitive than when I left. Although I'm starting to see that a lot of that may be a vocal minority and most players are still pretty laid back.

Yep this worries me too being an oldy (wow thats strange to admit, I still get ID'd when buying drinks) but I think there is a strong difference between what/who you see in the average GW and alot of players.

Mellon wrote: I wouldn't worry too much about if your models are 27mm high instead of 33mm... Just keep things reasonable and you should be fine.

Thinking about this the average guant probably doesn't stand much higher than a squat, and I'm no fan of built up models unless they're for display. I amused myself for hours when true LOS came out thinking of all the poor people who had to rip apart their favourite mini's and re-base them. My regular opponent told me I wasn't allowed to make a squad of veterans wriggling forwards on their stomachs

You've inspired me and hopefully I'll have enough time this weekend to finish the Landspeeder crew and consider painting them. One question...where do you guys stand on the squat colour scheme? I like the original earth/natural colours idea (and secretly love bright coloured helmets) but want them to be slightly more gritty. I'm considering washed/highlighted Gnarloc green with red helmets and maybe grey flak. Will be based on grey as my epic/confrontation (fore-runner to necromunda) models all are and its shows up mini's beautifully.

IG or Marines are the way to go. A friend of mine made a great plastic Squats army a few years ago (in 4th ed), using a mix of dwarf plastics and SM plastics, and played them as counts-as Space Marines. He used the regular guys as Scouts, thus representing the worse armor. He modeled his Devastator squads with mobile fortifications to represent their better armor.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/core/gallery-search.jsp?p=1&dq=squats&ll=3&auction=0&unapproved=0&coolnesslow=0&coolnesshigh=10&paintjoblow=0&paintjobhigh=10&sort1=7&sort2=0&skip=30&en=&st=&utype=&start=60