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Do you feel paying 10 points for a combi weapon is worth it in tactical squads?

It allows you to double up on special weapons, but as states is pricey.
Another thing: is there a way of taking a combi weapon and still getting the extra attack for 2 CCWs on the sergeant?

I usually always run them when taking power fists, because the attack loss was inevitable.

Your thoughts?

Only for cmeltas and cflamers.
More likely for cflamers as they never 'miss'.

It's a great way to open up their presence on the board when getting off a pod or out of a rhino.

Sanctjud wrote:Only for cmeltas and cflamers.
More likely for cflamers as they never 'miss'.

It's a great way to open up their presence on the board when getting off a pod or out of a rhino.

That is exactly how i am playing them currently; i was just wondering if anyone else had differant methods.

I almost never noticed the cplasma, probably because I've never seen it used (if you want plasma, you can pay 5 more points for the pistol, which at least won't go away after one shot, and lets you get an extra attack.)

The melta is the best way to break tanks, and the flamer won't miss. These weapons also have synergy with the special weapons the squad can get. I suppose the combi-plasma could be usefull if your squad was carrying a plasmagun....but who uses plasmaguns these days?

Well, why chance losing the fist and the ld 9 to a plasma weapon?
/shrug.
I think the risk far outweights the rewards in that situation, that' what I think is the reason they are not frequent.

I don't take them in my tactical squads.

I reserve the use of combi weapons for ICs or sergeants in squads that will attract a bit more attention from deepstriking units or quick vehicles.

Oh, and I voted for Flamers and Meltas.

Yes to meltas and flamers provided you are running vulkan.

I definitely think the combi-flamer and combi-melta are worth it. I don't favor plasma guns, so I'm not sure whether the combi-plasma would be worth its cost, but it seems like it's certainly a better option than the plasma pistol for a Sergeant.

There are a lot of variables here... IMO, the most common answer is that they're not worth it, but for some lists they can be.

If the Sarge has a PFist, they're more likely to be worth it. No lost attack for having it.

If it's a Vulkan list, Flamers and Meltas are much better, and thus more for your 10 points.

If it's a list that's deploying via Drop Pod, and thus very, very likely to get the first shot, from an advantageous angle, it's more worth it.

If you're struggling for a way to fit tank killing (melta) or horde killing (flamer) then it may be a necessary purchase.

The specific choice of weapon, IMO, should match up with whatever special weapon is chosen for the squad.

All Combi-weapons are decent choices, due to the consistent 10 point cost. This is a bit steep for a flamer, but they're very useful as they synergize with the rest of the squad's shooting, and are assault weapons. By comparison, combi-plasma doesn't seem to synergize with the squad's shooting all that well, but it's the same 10 points for the most expensive special weapon so you're getting more expensive shooting for the same cost.

IMO, Tactical Squads are a bit feeble overall. I find that they exist mostly just to stay alive on objectives, so adding punch to them is a waste of points. Better off putting points in the models you're using to kill the guys your opponent has on his objective.

I'm more for Combi-Flamer, so I can fit Melta-Multi Melta if I had too.

Plus, I ain't missin'

Tac squads are only tolerable if you keep their costs down.

Adding 10pts to a sgt in a tac squad is not a way to keep the tac squad cost down.

I used to run a pf and combi-melta on all my tac squad sgt's.

I stopped, saved the points and haven't missed them one bit.

If you take 3 tac squads, that's a savings of 105pts or a basic dreadnought.

Keep the tac squads cheap.

I think it depends alot on whether or not you are, or even think it's worth taking a PF on the sergeant.
Cheap squads should have neither, useful squads should have both, atleast that's how i see it.

@ imweasel:
Surely it's worth upping your tactical squads' strength. You pretty much have to pay 205 for the squad, that can do very little, for 40 or so points more you MAKE the squad effetive, considering its near compulsory to take tacs, surely paying a mere 40 points is worth it, when it comes to making an already 200 point squad worth something.

There is a huge difference between paying 10pts for a combi melta, which essentially doubles the squads ability to bust tanks; and 25 points for a fist which turns a lousy combat unit into a mediocre combat unit. Tactical squads are shooting squads, and playing to that strength can be a good thing.

Tactical squads are shooting units, yes. expensive ones at that.

The PF is definatly worth it IMO. I'm not saying go all out reckless assault with your tactical squad, they should be shooty in all but the most extreme examples. but it definalty goes a long way in making the unit suit the name.
Without that 25 point upgrade, what do you do against a greater deamon? against a wraithlord? against other marines? against a deamon prince? against anything with furious charge?... rapid fire them and wait for their charge? no, you let your pistols/meltas fly then try finish it off with a charge of your own. -Without one, you die, it's as simple as that really.
not to mention if your trusted meltaguns miss a tank? A PF on the charge is a reasonable back-up plan should this occur.

Expensive, yes. But would you really rather have one more sterngaurd? Doing that would likely improve the sterngaurd's effectiveness by what, 15% max? A PF in a Tac Squad makes them a threat in all nealry spheres of the game.
Be honest, how many marine vs marine face-offs have you seen? probably many. Think about the differance they make.

adielubbe wrote:I think it depends alot on whether or not you are, or even think it's worth taking a PF on the sergeant.
Cheap squads should have neither, useful squads should have both, atleast that's how i see it.

@ imweasel:
Surely it's worth upping your tactical squads' strength. You pretty much have to pay 205 for the squad, that can do very little, for 40 or so points more you MAKE the squad effetive, considering its near compulsory to take tacs, surely paying a mere 40 points is worth it, when it comes to making an already 200 point squad worth something.

3 combi-weapons and 3 power fists on 3 tac squads equal a basic dreadnought.

If you are doing your job, you won't need the 3 power fists and 3 combi-weapons.

Adding 40pts to a 200pt squad does not equal making them worth something.

Combi meltas rock on termis. On tac squads... well unless its an assault marine squad or something, its not worth it. Or a tank hunter squad.

Combi flamers, on the other hand, rock. They're great anti-horde, and sure they're a one shot wonder, but that one shot can help a lot when the inevitable CC comes.

Polonius wrote:There is a huge difference between paying 10pts for a combi melta, which essentially doubles the squads ability to bust tanks; and 25 points for a fist which turns a lousy combat unit into a mediocre combat unit. Tactical squads are shooting squads, and playing to that strength can be a good thing.

I can go with this for combi-melta or flamer IF you are running vulkan.

Vanilla space marine lists are very tight on points. You HAVE to get the most out of your points that you spend.

Yes for meltas and flamers, but only in drop pods.

It isn't a bad idea to put combi-meltas into a 5-man combat squad of tactical marines, coupled with another melta, for that one-time, extra armor-defeating punch. Putting them in transports helps keep that the squad from being diced up before making it into melta range.

I don't often take combis on my tac sgts. But for certain situations, like when I play against necrons I combat squad up a few tac squads and put a combi plasma on the sgt and run him with a plasma gun marine in his squad. I like using maximum plasma against necrons.

augustus5 wrote:I don't often take combis on my tac sgts. But for certain situations, like when I play against necrons I combat squad up a few tac squads and put a combi plasma on the sgt and run him with a plasma gun marine in his squad. I like using maximum plasma against necrons.

They will most likely get a cover save, if the necron player is worth a dime. So by going with plasma, you take a 3+ save and make it a 4+ cover save and they still get WBB.

Not very cost effective way of fighting necrons...

imweasel wrote:Tac squads are only tolerable if you keep their costs down.

Adding 10pts to a sgt in a tac squad is not a way to keep the tac squad cost down.

I used to run a pf and combi-melta on all my tac squad sgt's.

I stopped, saved the points and haven't missed them one bit.

If you take 3 tac squads, that's a savings of 105pts or a basic dreadnought.

Keep the tac squads cheap.

I disagree. Tactical squads are supposed to be versatile. As is, they are only good for sitting on an objective. The combi-melta + melta + PF allows them to deal with armored threats that contest that objective. The hidden powerfist is fantastic. More times than I can count, it's won games for me by beating problems off the objective.

By cheaping out on units, you're essentially putting more kill points out there to get shot up. I like the odds of 3 tooled out Tac squads over 3 'nilla Tac squads and a dread. One PF has just as many attacks, is cheaper, and can't be singled out.

That Dread also can't be 3 places at once...

NuggzTheNinja wrote:

imweasel wrote:Tac squads are only tolerable if you keep their costs down.

Adding 10pts to a sgt in a tac squad is not a way to keep the tac squad cost down.

I used to run a pf and combi-melta on all my tac squad sgt's.

I stopped, saved the points and haven't missed them one bit.

If you take 3 tac squads, that's a savings of 105pts or a basic dreadnought.

Keep the tac squads cheap.

I disagree. Tactical squads are supposed to be versatile. As is, they are only good for sitting on an objective. The combi-melta + melta + PF allows them to deal with armored threats that contest that objective. The hidden powerfist is fantastic. More times than I can count, it's won games for me by beating problems off the objective.

By cheaping out on units, you're essentially putting more kill points out there to get shot up. I like the odds of 3 tooled out Tac squads over 3 'nilla Tac squads and a dread. One PF has just as many attacks, is cheaper, and can't be singled out.

That Dread also can't be 3 places at once...

No, but my list can be 4 places at once. Anyone that worries about kp's over building an effective list should rethink their worries.

A melta/mm in a rhino allows that squad to deal with armored threats as well. Powerfists are great if you a) get locked in combat by a dreadnought or b) get locked in cc that you should not be involved with in the first place.

Powerfists and combi-weapons for sgt's are spent just in case you are forced out of your rhino bunker. I would rather spend points on things that will allow me to avoid that situation altogether.

imweasel wrote:

NuggzTheNinja wrote:

imweasel wrote:Tac squads are only tolerable if you keep their costs down.

Adding 10pts to a sgt in a tac squad is not a way to keep the tac squad cost down.

I used to run a pf and combi-melta on all my tac squad sgt's.

I stopped, saved the points and haven't missed them one bit.

If you take 3 tac squads, that's a savings of 105pts or a basic dreadnought.

Keep the tac squads cheap.

I disagree. Tactical squads are supposed to be versatile. As is, they are only good for sitting on an objective. The combi-melta + melta + PF allows them to deal with armored threats that contest that objective. The hidden powerfist is fantastic. More times than I can count, it's won games for me by beating problems off the objective.

By cheaping out on units, you're essentially putting more kill points out there to get shot up. I like the odds of 3 tooled out Tac squads over 3 'nilla Tac squads and a dread. One PF has just as many attacks, is cheaper, and can't be singled out.

That Dread also can't be 3 places at once...

No, but my list can be 4 places at once. Anyone that worries about kp's over building an effective list should rethink their worries.

A melta/mm in a rhino allows that squad to deal with armored threats as well. Powerfists are great if you a) get locked in combat by a dreadnought or b) get locked in cc that you should not be involved with in the first place.

Powerfists and combi-weapons for sgt's are spent just in case you are forced out of your rhino bunker. I would rather spend points on things that will allow me to avoid that situation altogether.

Annihilation comes up 1/3 of the time, so you should prepare to deal with it. KP's don't take precedence over building a useful list, but any good player should always take them into account.

You can't always avoid close combat with your tactical squads. Maybe in a fantasy land where everything always goes your way, but in real life, things go wrong even with the best laid plan. 25 points is well spent giving your Tac squad a serious edge.

I haven't had any problems with spending 50 points, at 1,500, to give a powerfist to each of my sergeants. Everything in the army does what it's supposed to, but you're kidding yourself if you really think that a good opponent won't force you into combats that are problematic. A good player recognizes that some things are unavoidable and plans accordingly. Hence a powerfist. There's a reason it's called "Warhammer" and not "Mathhammer": sometimes a melta gun and a multimelta isn't enough to fix the problem.

I think throwing down fists and combimeltas is a horribly waste of points for tacticals. They aren't good in close combat and with combat tactics you can always leave it. Besides the space marine army list is chokefull with excellent tankhunting units and assaulters.

Also the "good opponent" argument never held water. Because a good opponent can kill all your tacticals with lascannons and powerfist with a single gretchin.

Maybe you can take a combimelta in a vulcan army.

Well, if your Tactical Sergeant gets a power fist,
the best choice for the secondary weapon is a combi-weapon.
These weapons are hit or miss, especially the combi-melta,
while the combi-flamer is a no-brainer.

wuestenfux wrote:Well, if your Tactical Sergeant gets a power fist,
the best choice for the secondary weapon is a combi-weapon.
These weapons are hit or miss, especially the combi-melta,
while the combi-flamer is a no-brainer.

QFT. If you can't benefit from the +1 attack anyway, a combi-melta is a good compliment to a meltagun squad for the turn you really need to crack a high AV target while the combi-flamer gives you alot of versatility.

This thread has proven two things:
-take a combi if you are taking a PF
-it is a highly debatable, and intersting topic as to whether that should be the case

adielubbe wrote:This thread has proven two things:
-take a combi if you are taking a PF
-it is a highly debatable, and intersting topic as to whether that should be the case

except that your second statement is wrong and imweasel is right should be in it's place. Tacticals are not worth upgrading i ran mine with power fist combi flamer melta guns and after play testing and play testing and play testing i think trading all that for my ac/las pred was a way better investmentI just took 2nd in a 2250 tournament but I ahd the most points over all as general but my painting score made me miss first place by 2 points.

My list was as follows

Chaplin Cassius 125

librarian 100 poitns
nullzone/avenger

6assault terms 500pts
6Th/ss
LR crusader
multimelta

2x Dreadnoughts 250pts
2x dual TL autocannon

3x10 tactical squads 630pts
melta-gun
Multi-melta
rhino

1x2 land speeders 180pts
Hb/Typhoon

2x1 Speeders 140
MM/HF

2xpreds 240 points
autocannon/lascannon

1x pred 85pts
auto/heavy bolter

and you want to know how many tactical squad i lost?
1 whole squad in one game and i think thrhoughout the 3 games i lost a total of 3 rhinos

and 2 of the missions had kill points as an objective one was the primary and one was the secondary.

when your opponent loses steam faster than you because he made his squads expensive ya it hurts that much more when you lsoe them.

I am talking more about a 1500 points scenario. Not 2250