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So Tyranids are getting a new codex. Looks sick, right? That Trygon is epic looking. Why is GW giving Tyranids a new codex, though? I hate to say this, but there are armies out there that seriously need a new codex, and some of the armies recieving new ones didn't really seem to need them. For example, Space Marines did not, in any way, need a new codex for any reason. And IG, while a little outdated, seemed to be doing just fine. Space Wolves, so far, are the only army that really needed the 5th edition codex it got.

There are certain armies out there that need new codecies far more than the ones that have gotten them so far. As a Tau player, I'm a little biased, but it's hard to argue that Tau don't need a new codex. Dark Eldar also seem to need a new one really bad, as do Daemonhunters, Witchhunters, Dark Angels, Black Templars, and I've heard some people say Necrons, too. So why's GW giving the new codecies to the armies that don't need them? They did three Imperial ones in a row, two of which should have been for different armies, even if they were still Imperial armies (Codex: Inquisition, anyone?). And now that they seem to finally be getting to xeno codecies, why are they making a new Tyranids one, when a good chunk of the other xeno armies are in serious need of updates?

Is there some kind of method to Games Workshop's madness? Are they trying to boost sales of certain armies, which they didn't need to do for SM or IG? Are they trying to cater to the most commonly played armies? Space Wolves weren't exactly popular before the new codex. Is it based on sales at all, or is GW honestly trying to please its fans, and doing a really bad job? Because, logically the only reason to update a codex is to keep all of the armies competative. They will boost the sales of any army they update, so it doens't matter which one they choose in that respect. If you ask me, they will make more money off of updating the codecies that need to be updated since it will rejuvinate that army's fanbase and bring back all the people that dropped the army when the codex was nerffed.

Let's face it: there wouldn't be a single Tyranid player in the world right now that would look at a new Necron codex and think "Gee, that really should have been my army." But I'll bet there are plenty of Dark Eldar players out there that are pretty pissed about the Tyranids getting a new codex.

Because Tyranids have HUGE problems with competitiveness. Tournament gamers who are also fans of 'Nids wouldn't stop whining because their only reliable anti-tank in 5th edition is from MCs, which aren't exactly the fastest bugs on the board. Necrons, at least, have jetbike-mounted lascannon equivalents and get a lot of easy glancing hits. Tau also have their annoying Fish o' Fury tactic, Mech SoB are pretty damn good, Dark Eldar are still competitive, and the Space Marine sub-armies are still Space Marines.

The only army with a real problem is Daemonhunters, which not many people play nowadays.

THIS ISN'T NEWS OR A RUMOUR.

All I read was..

blah blah blah "dark eldar and necrons"

Kirasu wrote:All I read was..

blah blah blah "dark eldar and necrons"

Dark Eldar are squatted in all but name. It's the same old story, try to introduce a fantasy army into 40K, struggle with the concept, silly figures, the years go by and no one can work up the energy to do anything with them or have any ideas on what to do with them. They don't even sell them in the shops any more.

Method is money.
There will be a new Space Marine codex every few years because SM pays the bills!
Dark Eldar, Deamonhunters, Witchhunters, DA, and BT will all get something eventually but these armies never sold super well even when they were new and shiny!

People have voted with their wallets which armies get more love. So tested good sellers will always get a fresh coat of paint every now and then before these others will.

Oxfordseth wrote:Method is money.
There will be a new Space Marine codex every few years because SM pays the bills!
Dark Eldar, Deamonhunters, Witchhunters, DA, and BT will all get something eventually but these armies never sold super well even when they were new and shiny!

People have voted with their wallets which armies get more love. So tested good sellers will always get a fresh coat of paint every now and then before these others will.

*Nods

1. Tournament crowd whining (also... staleness of play at that level) as has been said before
2. Swarm army mega-nerf in 5th (no retreat being a complete about face from the outnumbering rules... miserable sods)
3. No vehicle killy power at range worth mentioning. It's mech 2.0 time, so nid players (which I ceased to be about five months ago) are really rejoicing about this one
4. Majorly overpriced base troop choices

People would be playing necrons/inqui/DE though if they remade the freaking codices. No excuse GW, no excuse. If you make it, they will buy.

Yorick_of_Tau wrote:So Tyranids are getting a new codex. Looks sick, right? That Trygon is epic looking. Why is GW giving Tyranids a new codex, though? I hate to say this, but there are armies out there that seriously need a new codex, and some of the armies recieving new ones didn't really seem to need them.

You have just realized this?

And heres another one lol

These pop up often when non imperial players end up getting sick and tired of all the super shiny Space Marine codices. I dont blame ya, but Im an Ork first, and we got ours first (basically)
It is annoying seeing the way they put out dexes. Its stupid really. And I am a firm believer in the "if they redue them, they will sell" logic. Seriously if they just remade the DE minis, with at LEAST a decent codex, I guarantee those would sell like hot cakes.

There's a little phrase called "Strike while the iron is hot". Tyranids and (presumably) Blood Angels are coming as they follow the Space Hulk release.

Yes, that was a while ago, but I never said GW was any good at striking while the iron was hot, only that they were trying to.

...how about GW striking the iron when they really do not need to?

Honestly the armies that have gotten Dex's so far really DID need them (Other than marines of course but they are always de-faulted the first dex)

SM-Flagship army always get 1st dex
IG- had major issues with being competitive, which has been fixed with mech vets
SW- Had a relic 3rd edition dex, they needed an update
Nids- As stated above, lacked any real form of AT support outside of MC. Which are very slow (except from a winged tyrant)
BA?- don't even have a real codex, just a half-ass whitedwarf dex. Need a major update with cost and competitiveness

H.B.M.C. wrote:There's a little phrase called "Strike while the iron is hot". Tyranids and (presumably) Blood Angels are coming as they follow the Space Hulk release.

Yes, that was a while ago, but I never said GW was any good at striking while the iron was hot, only that they were trying to.

GW strikes the iron when no one wants them to, instead of making things that SHOULD be made, and when they do, at least they USED to tell you what they were making.

Now? They treat it like some kind of "Secret of the Gods"

KingCracker wrote:And heres another one lol

These pop up often when non imperial players end up getting sick and tired of all the super shiny Space Marine codices. I dont blame ya, but Im an Ork first, and we got ours first (basically)
It is annoying seeing the way they put out dexes. Its stupid really. And I am a firm believer in the "if they redue them, they will sell" logic. Seriously if they just remade the DE minis, with at LEAST a decent codex, I guarantee those would sell like hot cakes.

Of course having your codex first means that after a while you'll be at the bottom of the pile competitive-wise due to codex creep and looking at an eternity before a re-release.

Tyranids are in the same spot as the Tau right now. Both armies are floundering due to age and rules changes. Tyranids definitely do need a codex.

Daemonhunters, Dark Eldar, and maybe Necrons are the only armies that need an update more than Tyranids. Dark Eldar are all but abandoned, and would need a huge revamp to be successfully redone. Daemonhunters are probably going to need a significant revamp, along with the Witch Hunters, if all Inquisitorial forces are going to be consolidated into one army. Necrons could use some new model sculpts (and some new fluff, in my opinion).

Dark Angels are part of the new generation of MEQs, and while they have their problems it's not an army that's likely to be updated. Black Templars are quite good in 5th edition, although their codex has some rules issues. Witch Hunters have good enough builds (but will most likely be combined with Daemonhunters, as mentioned before).

The Lost and the Damned could use a codex, but they're not going to get one (ever).

I've been in the hobby long enough to realize two things about any discussion about "who needs a codex update most."

1) The discussion rotates mostly around what traits you look for the most in a codex, be it competitivenss, populariity, variety of builds, etc.

2) It's very easy to look at somebody else and say "you're doing fine, but my codex really needs an update."

Traditionally, GW updates Space Marines first with every new edition. This time, GW has a better reason: the eliminiation of the traits system. In late 3rd, early 4th edition, GW replaced dozens of sublists with complicated systems for building rules a la carte. In late 4th, GW started eliminating them, starting with Eldar (Craftworlds gone), then DA (no seperate DW or RW lists), then famously stripping them from Chaos, the ork book elimated the clans rules, and the current SM and IG eliminated the last of the traits/doctrines systems left.

With the success of the current Ork book, I think GW has seen that there is plenty of pent up demand for competitive, flexible books for old favorites, and IG are appealing. DE, Necrons, and DH simply don't have the organic support that Orks and IG do. Tau have quickly become a major race, but updating that book so quickly would be a tacit admission that they screwed up (even though they didn't).

So, I think the factors are:
1) how competitive/strong is the current book (only chaos was replaced while top tier)
2) How many viable builds are available out of the current book?
3) How much demand is there for the army?
4) quite simply, how stale is the current book?
5) Is this codex a "boutique" list, meant to appeal to veteran and hobby gamers?

Polonius wrote:A bunch of thoughtful things.

Very well said. I agree.

Polonius wrote:So, I think the factors are:
1) how competitive/strong is the current book (only chaos was replaced while top tier)
2) How many viable builds are available out of the current book?
3) How much demand is there for the army?
4) quite simply, how stale is the current book?
5) Is this codex a "boutique" list, meant to appeal to veteran and hobby gamers?

I like this, and think it is a fairly legitimate, and mostly true, way of looking at this. Be that as it may, I would like to disagree with number 3. I think that they would make far more money by updating the codecies that no one plays. The really popular armies, like IG and SM, already have people playing them. The best way to fix up armies with sagging fanbases is to revamp them and make a big deal out of them. I can sort of understand the new SM codex, but for any other time I think they should always update the oldest codex possible. This way it keeps the game even, and all armies are always playable.

Yorick_of_Tau wrote:

Polonius wrote:So, I think the factors are:
1) how competitive/strong is the current book (only chaos was replaced while top tier)
2) How many viable builds are available out of the current book?
3) How much demand is there for the army?
4) quite simply, how stale is the current book?
5) Is this codex a "boutique" list, meant to appeal to veteran and hobby gamers?

I like this, and think it is a fairly legitimate, and mostly true, way of looking at this. Be that as it may, I would like to disagree with number 3. I think that they would make far more money by updating the codecies that no one plays. The really popular armies, like IG and SM, already have people playing them. The best way to fix up armies with sagging fanbases is to revamp them and make a big deal out of them. I can sort of understand the new SM codex, but for any other time I think they should always update the oldest codex possible. This way it keeps the game even, and all armies are always playable.

Well, by demand I wasn't simply referring to current demand, I was referring to potential demand for a good book. Even with realtively equally good rules and models, some armies will always be more popular than others. Vanilla Marines are obviously the largest, with Eldar, Chaos and Orks forming the big four. The next rung are IG, Nids, and more recently Tau, with Space Wolves making an appearance in the past, and maybe again soon. The other marine sub lists, BA and DA are hard to categorize, simply because people can use those books/lists in many different ways. Necrons and DE never caught on like Tau did (or the other RT era armies), the Inquisition books were always meant to be niche armies, and Daemons are completely new.

So, I think GW correctly decided that they could make more money with an IG book, tapping into current, lapsed, and potential players, than they could with, say, Dark Eldar.

I started my IG army after new new dex came out.

Yorick_of_Tau wrote:I think they should always update the oldest codex possible. This way it keeps the game even, and all armies are always playable.

That's a nice goal, but it will never happen. The rules and the state of balance amongst the armies are strictly secondary considerations to the need to sell miniatures. Nids sell so it's a no-brainer for GW to chase that revenue and put them in the release schedule as soon as possible.

Kirasu wrote:All I read was..

blah blah blah "dark eldar and necrons"

na i totally agree

Chill. Tau were nerfed by 5th edition yes, but half the tyranid army's wargear no longer has any effect. They did yes have a few competative lists but they were still in bad need of fixing. Space marines.... well the GW poster child must never be a non competative beat your opponent to mush army. IG codex was older than dirt. Complicated, and needed fixing. Space wolves needed to be brought back. Relaxe sometime within a year we might be getting a codex if 2010 turns out to be the xenos year. After all we got Space marines, space wolves and IG, which would be the imperial year.

Oxfordseth wrote:Method is money.

Correct, everyone who wants a new DE codex needs to prove it by ordering a couple a grand of DE stuff so GW believes them.

Oxfordseth wrote:People have voted with their wallets which armies get more love. So tested good sellers will always get a fresh coat of paint every now and then before these others will.

Precisely

Slackermagee wrote:
If you make it, they will buy.

Prove it, they can either support known existing demand, or gamble on phantom/potential interest for less popular armies.
(Note: by prove it I mean spend enough money to convince them)

KingCracker wrote:And I am a firm believer in the "if they redue them, they will sell" logic. Seriously if they just remade the DE minis, with at LEAST a decent codex, I guarantee those would sell like hot cakes.

Your guarantee is meaningless, unless you're prepared to back it up with money.

I suspect that if GW was run using the above theory of release management, they would have gone out of business long ago. They give people what they want/buy already, and with the occasional risk on new armies, but its a calculated risk and they abandon them quietly if necessary.

Jack

In all honesty, the army that needed a codex the least for any reason, I think, was Space Wolves. Sure, a lot of people wanted them, but they have all the actual luster of Deamon Hunters, they just seem to be more playable.

But my opinion always leans farther away from having more codices for Space Marines. I'm more of a "buildable" type player anyway, and would prefer to see sub-codices come out for such things.

Skinnattittar wrote:In all honesty, the army that needed a codex the least for any reason, I think, was Space Wolves. Sure, a lot of people wanted them, but they have all the actual luster of Deamon Hunters, they just seem to be more playable.

But my opinion always leans farther away from having more codices for Space Marines. I'm more of a "buildable" type player anyway, and would prefer to see sub-codices come out for such things.

Space Wolves have always been one of the best selling Space Marine lists (outselling BA/DA/BT) and they had a relic of a codex from the late 90's. They definitely needed it, and it was a way for GW to make more money from a "safe bet" army. Space Marines pay the bills and let them take bigger risks with xeno races, so I fail to see any reason to complain.

Jackmojo wrote:

KingCracker wrote:And I am a firm believer in the "if they redue them, they will sell" logic. Seriously if they just remade the DE minis, with at LEAST a decent codex, I guarantee those would sell like hot cakes.

Your guarantee is meaningless, unless you're prepared to back it up with money.

Having seen the resin masters for the new Warriors sculpted by Jes Goodwin, I'm more than prepared to back it up with money.

To the point where once we have a more defined view of when the release will happen, I will start saving and be ready by release day to swoop down upon a store with around $1000+ dollars and buy nothing but DE.

Their new models are THAT good.

What i want to know, is why would they release a new codex, hoping to lure new people to the race Then redo the battleforce and make it a steaming pile of dog **** in regards to the old force?

Platuan4th wrote:
Having seen the resin masters for the new Warriors sculpted by Jes Goodwin, I'm more than prepared to back it up with money.

To the point where once we have a more defined view of when the release will happen, I will start saving and be ready by release day to swoop down upon a store with around $1000+ dollars and buy nothing but DE.

Their new models are THAT good.

You need to prove folks want Dark Eldar by buying loads of the existing stuff, not hoarding for the new though, that just makes them think its not worth producing DE at all.

kill dem stunties wrote:What i want to know, is why would they release a new codex, hoping to lure new people to the race Then redo the battleforce and make it a steaming pile of dog **** in regards to the old force?

In (marketing) theory, those new customers know nothing about the old options. Just as they don't worry Marine players are pissed at missing the RTB01 box of 30 Space Marines for $20 from 1989.

Jack