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Jackmojo wrote:You need to prove folks want Dark Eldar by buying loads of the existing stuff, not hoarding for the new though, that just makes them think its not worth producing DE at all.

So what you're saying is that I need to buy a second DE army so that I can convince them to put out new models so I can buy a third one?

Yep. Money talks, Bull**** walks and all that.

I'm not trying top be crass really (ok maybe a little), but its the truth too. Only by driving up sales of old armies will they be convinced to give you more for them.

Jack

Jackmojo wrote:Yep. Money talks, Bull**** walks and all that.

I'm not trying top be crass really (ok maybe a little), but its the truth too. Only by driving up sales of old armies will they be convinced to give you more for them.

Jack

If your logic held any water at all, the game would have become "Space Marine 40k" long ago....

If an army doesn't sell, all that says to GW is that they did a piss-poor job creating and marketing that army. You seem to think that making an unsuccessful army cool and appealing is nothing but a wild stab in the dark with no guarantee for success beyond current sales, and that's just not the way it is. Armies sell when GW does a good job with them, when they make them appealing through extensive and compelling fluff, and when they make a line of amazing miniatures. GW knows this. GW knows how to do this. This is precisely why, shabby though it's current fan-support may be, they are revisiting Dark Eldar. Same goes for Necrons and Tau. GW knows it's their own fault these armies don't sell. They don't expect US to fix that problem by buying crappy armies, they know that they have to do something extraordinary for that army if they expect to turn sales around. They know DE will sell as soon as they give DE fans a reason to buy...
They're not so naive as to think: 'One day, all the DE fans will rise up and spontaneously simultaneously buy tons of DE!... Until then, we mustn't update them!"

Gimme a break...

Archonate wrote:
If your logic held any water at all, the game would have become "Space Marine 40k" long ago....

The way some folks piss and moan you'd think this was already the case

In any case it clearly "holds some water" as certain armies held a stable fan base who continued purchases even when their support was at low ebb, IG and Orks being the obvious examples; both maintained steady sales numbers even with little to no new models or rules, hence both get ongoing support now.

Archonate wrote:If an army doesn't sell, all that says to GW is that they did a piss-poor job creating and marketing that army. You seem to think that making an unsuccessful army cool and appealing is nothing but a wild stab in the dark with no guarantee for success beyond current sales, and that's just not the way it is. Armies sell when GW does a good job with them, when they make them appealing through extensive and compelling fluff, and when they make a line of amazing miniatures. GW knows this. GW knows how to do this. This is precisely why, shabby though it's current fan-support may be, they are revisiting Dark Eldar. Same goes for Necrons and Tau. GW knows it's their own fault these armies don't sell. They don't expect US to fix that problem by buying crappy armies, they know that they have to do something extraordinary for that army if they expect to turn sales around. They know DE will sell as soon as they give DE fans a reason to buy...
They're not so naive as to think: 'One day, all the DE fans will rise up and spontaneously simultaneously buy tons of DE!... Until then, we mustn't update them!"

Gimme a break...

One word: Squats.

I imagine Games workshop, like most businesses, bases its predictions of customer actions on prior events, so unless they want to make an unfounded assumption (as you seem to encourage), they are basing their financial considerations on a Dark Eldar release on how the prior one did. Its a publicly traded business with a legal obligation to its shareholders to maximize profit per share, that makes there actions and motivations understandable and predictable, some folks just want to try and imagine them as a garage workshop doing it for love of the game and its fans, this is the assumption that holds no water.

Jack

Jackmojo wrote:In any case it clearly "holds some water" as certain armies held a stable fan base who continued purchases even when their support was at low ebb, IG and Orks being the obvious examples; both maintained steady sales numbers even with little to no new models or rules, hence both get ongoing support now.

Neither army started selling until after it was updated.

Jackmojo wrote:One word: Squats.

I imagine Games workshop, like most businesses, bases its predictions of customer actions on prior events, so unless they want to make an unfounded assumption (as you seem to encourage), they are basing their financial considerations on a Dark Eldar release on how the prior one did. Its a publicly traded business with a legal obligation to its shareholders to maximize profit per share, that makes there actions and motivations understandable and predictable, some folks just want to try and imagine them as a garage workshop doing it for love of the game and its fans, this is the assumption that holds no water.

Jack

Considering Orks and IG didn't start selling until after they were updated, I'd say there's nothing unfounded about the assumption that an updated army sells much better than a stale army with stale rules and stale models, despite what you seem to encourage.

I play daemon hunters with a few guard thrown in as inducted guardsmen.

Archonate wrote:Neither army started selling until after it was updated.

Considering Orks and IG didn't start selling until after they were updated, I'd say there's nothing unfounded about the assumption that an updated army sells much better than a stale army with stale rules and stale models, despite what you seem to encourage.

Do have any evidence for these assertions? Certainly IG and Ork never went direct-only like the DE.

But not all updates lead to rush in people building that army. I think there is a certain Organic demand for armies. To state that people will buy anything that's marketed is cynical and incorrect (new coke didn't sell, and it was pretty well marketed).

40k armies deal with Archtypes, and not all Archtypes are universally popular. 40k has various flavors of Space Marines, Mystical Aliens, High Tech Alien, Barbaric Aliens, Hive Swarm Aliens, and Space Humans. Armies like DE are less archtypical: Drow in space? That eat souls to avoid being detected by Slaanesh? It's neat, but they'll never be as popular as the others. Neither will Undead Aliens.

Look at how many people started Orks or IG, and how few started Demons.

deleted by the modquisition
G

Polonius wrote:new coke didn't sell, and it was pretty well marketed.

Tangent alert.

Actually New Coke did very well. Overseas. For whatever reasons, the US market reacted negatively while other markets didn't. Today if you buy Coca Cola in Europe it;s the New Coke formula. It's not all that different. You can tell it's Coke, not Pepsi (or RC), but if you do a side-by-side comparison with the original formula you notice that the New Coke is just a little sweeter.

deleted by a rapidly more ticked off modquisition

Green Blow Fly wrote:This thread has been tagged with teen angst butthurt.

G

You know, I remember when you were at least good at trolling. Now it's just sad watching you try.

No I am really serious.

* chirp *

You are right. Dark Eldar, for example, really need a new codex. But Necrons don't: they are sooo cool right now: perhaps, simply adding new units...
I love Chaos, Tyranids, Necrons and Orks, specially the first three of them. Odd, isn't it?

Arschbombe wrote:

Polonius wrote:new coke didn't sell, and it was pretty well marketed.

Tangent alert.

Actually New Coke did very well. Overseas. For whatever reasons, the US market reacted negatively while other markets didn't. Today if you buy Coca Cola in Europe it;s the New Coke formula. It's not all that different. You can tell it's Coke, not Pepsi (or RC), but if you do a side-by-side comparison with the original formula you notice that the New Coke is just a little sweeter.

OT I know but do any of you remember pepsi clear?

Archonate wrote:
Neither army started selling until after it was updated.

Considering Orks and IG didn't start selling until after they were updated, I'd say there's nothing unfounded about the assumption that an updated army sells much better than a stale army with stale rules and stale models, despite what you seem to encourage.

I don't have the sales numbers to hand but I've seen them before, and your belief is not correct.

Arschbombe wrote:
Do have any evidence for these assertions? Certainly IG and Ork never went direct-only like the DE.

Good point, if something doesn't warrant store shelf space it probably is unlikely to warrant design resources

Polonius wrote:But not all updates lead to rush in people building that army. I think there is a certain Organic demand for armies. To state that people will buy anything that's marketed is cynical and incorrect (new coke didn't sell, and it was pretty well marketed).

40k armies deal with Archtypes, and not all Archtypes are universally popular. 40k has various flavors of Space Marines, Mystical Aliens, High Tech Alien, Barbaric Aliens, Hive Swarm Aliens, and Space Humans. Armies like DE are less archtypical: Drow in space? That eat souls to avoid being detected by Slaanesh? It's neat, but they'll never be as popular as the others. Neither will Undead Aliens.

Look at how many people started Orks or IG, and how few started Demons.

Those sales facts are exactly why we're seeing IG, SM, Ork wave 3s before Daemon wave 2. Your analysis of army popularity does indeed appear to be correct as well (and its certainly reflects what I see in sales numbers), Dark Eldar, Necrons and the inquisition tend to appeal to players already steeped in 40k background and not really anyone else, making them bad releases from a growth perspective.

Jack

P.S. Wasn't it called Crystal Pepsi? Funny stuff in any case.

Modquisition on: Lets focus on whatever this thread is about. trolling and profanity and other 12 year old activities are not acceptable.

I don't know Fraz, swearing and trolling and acting like a 12-year-old are pretty much right up the 40K alley when I play.

Jackmojo wrote:

Archonate wrote:
Neither army started selling until after it was updated.

Considering Orks and IG didn't start selling until after they were updated, I'd say there's nothing unfounded about the assumption that an updated army sells much better than a stale army with stale rules and stale models, despite what you seem to encourage.

I don't have the sales numbers to hand but I've seen them before, and your belief is not correct.

You seriously expect me to believe that IG and Orks sold better and were more popular BEFORE they were updated?... All the sudden nobody liked them anymore when they got new stuff? They sold like crazy up until they got a new codex? I'm afraid I'd have to see 'the sales numbers' in order to believe that.

Arschbombe wrote:Do have any evidence for these assertions? Certainly IG and Ork never went direct-only like the DE.

I thought common sense dictated that newer, cooler armies sell better... Can you prove that IG and Ork sales took a dive when they were re-released? Mackjojo seems pretty sure they did as well. Maybe I'm completely mistaken. Maybe fresh new rules and sweet new models are a detriment to GW sales...

Polonius wrote:But not all updates lead to rush in people building that army. I think there is a certain Organic demand for armies. To state that people will buy anything that's marketed is cynical and incorrect (new coke didn't sell, and it was pretty well marketed).

40k armies deal with Archtypes, and not all Archtypes are universally popular. 40k has various flavors of Space Marines, Mystical Aliens, High Tech Alien, Barbaric Aliens, Hive Swarm Aliens, and Space Humans. Armies like DE are less archtypical: Drow in space? That eat souls to avoid being detected by Slaanesh? It's neat, but they'll never be as popular as the others. Neither will Undead Aliens.

Look at how many people started Orks or IG, and how few started Demons.

I'm not denying that there are varying degrees of popularity. All I'm saying is that an army's sales will increase when that army is given attention. How large an increase depends on how generous and appealing the attention given. Honestly, I didn't expect so much opposition to such a simple principle.

And you'll have to humor me, though I'm a DE player, I have no idea what 'Drow' is...

Archonate wrote:Can you prove that IG and Ork sales took a dive when they were re-released?

Who has made that claim? AFAIK no one has stated that an army will sell less when it gets a new codex. All we are saying is that the specious "guarantees" bandied about saying how GW will make a mint because there is this huge untapped market for new DE stuff is bollocks. The DE didn't sell very well before and they're unlikely to set sales records when they do get updated which is why they aren't a priority for GW.

And you'll have to humor me, though I'm a DE player, I have no idea what 'Drow' is...

Really? They were the original (AFAIK) dark elf archetype developed during the early day of AD&D.

I don't really mind the delay in releasing new stuff for Dark Eldar honestly. More genestealers for the arenas of Commoragh I suppose Then again I haven't played too much recently, and Ive never been a big fan of the lance spam. Still don't really get why people hate the Dark Eldar models so much, they look like the eldar essentially, but spiky. Probably not the most exciting I suppose but everyone acts like they're the worst things in the world.

Archonate wrote:You seriously expect me to believe that IG and Orks sold better and were more popular BEFORE they were updated?... All the sudden nobody liked them anymore when they got new stuff? They sold like crazy up until they got a new codex? I'm afraid I'd have to see 'the sales numbers' in order to believe that.

You've misunderstood me, I'm saying they sold better then the Dark Eldar ever did. IG and orks have consistently moved units across the timespan of third edition to present, even when not recently updated (Orks is the golden example here, going for 9ish years (July 99 to January 2008) between army books, assuming Wikipedia has the release dates right).

Archonate wrote:

Arschbombe wrote:Do have any evidence for these assertions? Certainly IG and Ork never went direct-only like the DE.

I thought common sense dictated that newer, cooler armies sell better... Can you prove that IG and Ork sales took a dive when they were re-released? Mackjojo seems pretty sure they did as well. Maybe I'm completely mistaken. Maybe fresh new rules and sweet new models are a detriment to GW sales...
I'm not denying that there are varying degrees of popularity. All I'm saying is that an army's sales will increase when that army is given attention. How large an increase depends on how generous and appealing the attention given. Honestly, I didn't expect so much opposition to such a simple principle.

Common sense has no relationship to business predictions, you base your assumptions about future sales on what has occurred in the past, the past Dark Eldar releases clearly have not generated then enough revenue to warrant pouring a lot of effort into them, and much like the Squats before them, the older they get the more effort they need to get up to current standards and the less likely it becomes that anything will ever happen to them. Personally, I would not be surprised if we never see Dark Eldar get redone properly, but that Games Workshop Public Relations has decided that tossing off a few dribs and drabs for them (in the form of DE specific stuff in books like Planet Strike and Apocalypse, which costs them little to no resources compared to a dedicated miniature line) will help them avoid the negative reactions they got from folks over doing away with an exisiting army.

Given that, I don't actually disagree with your premise that the attention and advertising helps generate some sales, but its all investment versus reward, Space Marines and other more popular armies are going to make them more money then Dark Eldar, no matter what they do to them in all likelihood.

Jack

In all likelihood, you are correct. DE won't outsell SMs. GW can't base it's releases on whether or not they expect the release to do as well as SMs though. There will always be the non-SM player market. PlatuanAth (who claims to have seen the new DE minis) is ready to drop 1000$ the day DE get released. I plan to spend at least that much on the new DE just as immediately. We might be a minority but I promise we're far from the only two who feel this way. There is money to be made from new DE. Money which GW will miss out on if all they do is wave SM in everybody's faces. I'm not saying DE will muscle SMs off the shelves, but I know people who will drop SMs and other armies like a bad habit once DE come back. I believe DE are a worthwhile investment for GW. That believe is based solely on what I hear in local game stores and on half a dozen 40k forums from 'Sleeper DE players' (if you will.) They want to play DE, and will, but not until the army becomes more respectable. These folk are invisible to GWs sales radar. And they exist in large numbers.

As I've stated elsewhere, not all 40k armies are equal in GW's eyes. Some 40k armies (i.e. vanilla SM) are more equal than others. Other 40k armies (i.e. Dark Eldar, Space Wolves) are less equal.

Now, if you jump the fence to WFB, the Army Book releases appear to be much "fairer" (unless you play Chaos Dwarves or Dogs of War). WFB armies appear to update far more evenly by comparison.

The idea that somehow releasing every army under a perfectly "fair" progression works best belies the fact that 40k is GW's most successful and most profitable game.

Now if WFB started to massively outsell 40k, and its success was easily attributable to the "fairness" of the Army Book releases, then I'm sure GW would adjust their Codex release model.

That hasn't happened, so GW is just going to plod along with their successful, "unfair" Codex releases.
____

Polonius wrote:Look at how many people started Orks or IG, and how few started Demons.

In WFB, where Daemons are ridiculously overpowered, a *lot* of people have started Daemons...

I'm not at all convinced that massive Codex creep is a desirable thing for 40k

Stop whining and deal with it

pr0t011187 wrote:Stop whining and deal with it

QFT.

I think IG needs another codex because they removed Ibram Gaunt and Yarrick cant issue orders :[[[[[[

Archonate wrote:These folk are invisible to GWs sales radar. And they exist in large numbers.

Exactly, that's precisely why I was saying they need to spend some money, so they can be visible.

Ennkay wrote:I think IG needs another codex because they removed Ibram Gaunt and Yarrick cant issue orders :[[[[[[

Yeah thats sort of odd, given his history as an army commander letting him issue orders (even if not all of them) would have been appropriate, he's still pretty good though.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Now if WFB started to massively outsell 40k, and its success was easily attributable to the "fairness" of the Army Book releases, then I'm sure GW would adjust their Codex release model.

Don't Space Marines by themselves widely outsell fantasy, let alone 40k as a whole? Certainly the relative number of plastic releases supports the idea that 40k is the more commercially successful venture.

Jack

It is widely understood that 40k easily outsells Fantasy by a wide margin, and that SMs alone outsell the entire Fantasy line.

And that "success" is precisely why GW isn't going to tinker with the GW Codex release model in any great way.

Without SMs, nobody gets updates.