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**IMPORTANT NOTICE** This thread has been created by me to ask a question of folks of a Church-going nature, it is NOT to be hijacked for digressive attacks on people's religious views. DO NOT BASH CHRISTIANITY IN THIS THREAD.

So, many moons ago, a young Stompa (merely a killa kan back then) bought the realms of chaos books, they detailed dark gods, daemons and mutated cultists.

My granma belonged to an Evangelical church (speaking in tongues, faith healing etc) and one day whilst at her house for dinner after school, her church friends arranged to 'intervene' with me, basically they all showed up and took my books out of my college bag and started waving them about and speaking in tongues and pointing at me and crying out that that my soul was in peril and that they had been warned about the darkness contained in the games I was playing.
My Gran then pleaded with me to stop reading the books or playing the games (all of which were dungeons and dragons as far as her friends were concerned) and cried because the most fervent in her church had convinced her I would be going to hell or possessed.

A friend of mine, who's parents moved from their regular methodist church to this same evangelical church took all his books, figures and posters and burnt it all and again they too tried to 'intervene' with his friends and take our books and figures from us.

I don't hear the same anger and fears from the Church nowadays, has the fear that D&D is a portal to demonic possession now subsided?

Do those gamers who regularly attend church ever get challenged on their gaming? Is there ever a conflict between the two parts of your lives?

Have others also experienced negative behaviours from those acting under the auspices of religion?

AGAIN, PLEASE DO NOT ATTACK RELIGION HERE. JUST WANT TO HEAR ABOUT PEOPLE'S EXPERIENCES.

The U.S. christian institution, the evangelical church especially is very prone to being sheepishly guided towards demonizing certain movements or practices. DND used to get a hell of a lot more guff then it does now, for the most part they've moved on to targeting other things (the political christian movements have taken up more and more of the average evangelicals time these days, gays have replaced demons).

Have others also experienced negative behaviours from those acting under the auspices of religion?

I grew up in a somewhat secular household, so I've been pretty well without religious intervention in my life. Most of my experience is through the lens of modern political christianity, something I developed a strong distaste for early. That said, no one ever took my magic cards from me and spoke in tongues. I get the distinct impression that that anything similar happening to me these days would incite quite a bit of anger in me.

Y'know...I can't really think of any point in time where I've been challenged about the hobby on a religious point of view. When I was a wee lad(12), I did get a sheepish look from my father because of the Dark Elf witches...but that was all that ever came of it.

And I think the fear of Dungeons and Dragons being a portal to demonic possession has subsided. Now they get all up in arms about people who take even the slightest interest about the paranormal, whether it be just going to a historic or supposedly haunted site and leaving a trap camera running all night, or doing EVP sessions.

Now they get all up in arms about people who take even the slightest interest about the paranormal, whether it be just going to a historic or supposedly haunted site and leaving a trap camera running all night, or doing EVP sessions.

I think thats more because ghost hunters is a really stupid show and people expect better than it does with christianity.

MMMM I have recieved mixed feelings towards this topic. Some of my friends feel that I am worshipping demons and what nots, but I have a number of fellow born agains who actually play warhammer. Heck years ago I had a priest walk into my gw store I worked at to buy templars for his nephew, and he had no problem with everything. Honestly it comes down to the person because in the end this is just a game, and if people really want to argue it and compare it to the book I have a number of great examples in the bible that shows how inherantly evil we can be.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Now they get all up in arms about people who take even the slightest interest about the paranormal, whether it be just going to a historic or supposedly haunted site and leaving a trap camera running all night, or doing EVP sessions.

I think thats more because ghost hunters is a really stupid show and people expect better than it does with christianity.

I won't go into a debate about the merits of Ghost Hunters or other paranormal shows(Most Haunted can suck my left nut, however)...but there's a reason there's an interest in Ghost Hunters.

The afterlife, and proof of it, is something that always nags at some people. It's a way to scientifically validate faith, as stupid as that may sound. A lot of the opposition that crops up in regards to TAPS and other paranormal groups isn't claims of hoaxes(although they do get their share of hoax claims. Including skeptics who use footage from the Queen Ann investigation, where a bedsheet was turned down on camera. They actually debunked that footage while on site, due to finding out that someone had snuck into the room, paused the camera and then turned the sheet down after getting into position. And yet...skeptics leave that part off. They just point out there's a "time lag in the footage, of just long enough for someone to move into position and pull the sheets down) but claims from religious groups that TAPS is in league with the Devil and corrupting the Good Christian Youth by getting them to start investigating the paranormal.

Should see the trolls they get on their forums sometimes. Makes Gwar! look tame.

I was playing D&D starting in '79, and we ran a campaign one weekend from Friday night till Sunday afternoon, napping when necessary (oh, for my lost days of youth!). On Sunday morning one of my friends was idly flipping channels on the TV, all six or seven of them, when he found an evangelical church show on. Lo and behold, the preacher man's sermon was about the evils of, you guessed it, Dungeons and Dragons!

He was really in a froth about the sins and temptations of role playing, with all the demons and devils and such. The kicker though, is when he started in about how role players rub their dice on the breasts of their sinful girlfriends for lucky rolls. I turned to my friends. "No wonder we're having such a tough time in our adventures, we need some girlfriends!"

I was raised as a Jehovah's Witness BTW, and I never would have gotten away with roleplaying or minis, if I hadn't been 17 and able to go to my friends to play. By the time my mom or grandma were able to form an opinion of the games, it was less critical than other things (girls, rebel youth, etc.) going on in my life. I think they were happy I had smart, polite friends, which most gamers are.

When I was first going out with the future Mrs MDS, she was only seventeen and her Step mother was a born again Christian.

There where more than a few discusssions about the fact she was going to a RPG group, but her father wasn't willing to ban her outright even though I'm pretty sure he would have liked to.

About four months into the relationship while hanging out at her family home, we found some panphlets about RPG's, gamers etc from the local Church she belonged to. Can't remember why we found them, we where looking for something else.

Basically they had some of the oddest things and most blatent lies in them and I was actually partially appauled, yet ammused at the same time. There was even a big section on Chaos for GW, and it was considering a rising danger.

I think my feelings of 'don't force your ideals' onto others was founded in steel on that day.

Nearly thirteen years later, I've gone from being the 'demon spawn' corrupting the innocence of the step daughter, to a loving husband and father of the grand kids, and maybe the gaming isn't all that bad after all.
She's even stopped trying to covert my wife everytime she comes around now as well, which is a bonus.

Things are a lot healthier in our family relationship, I can tell you. Even though her dad is now a member of the church and so on, although he's never been big on forcing anything onto anyone, he just has his faith.

Which is cool, I'm happy for him and as long as he's happy for us and how we live, then brilliant, life goes on. We do get on much better these days, which I can only take as a positive.


Of course I'm not suggesting all Christians are pushy with their faith, but those who are, would not be the kinda folks I'm interesting in knowing.

M..M...Must.... remain.... silent.......

I haven't had much problems with people telling me I'm gonna go to hell or be possessed, of course i only started playing 2 years ago.

The only time I have ever had any problems were from my parents who were not terribly pleased with my choice in hobbies as a child. They thought anything DND, MTG, or the like, was demonic, but they never banned me outright. The whole "anti RPGs, etc" thing of the modern church is a direct descendant of the Literal Fundamentalist movement...it really is quite sad...yay CoE!

No i have never have problems. but then again my parents arent to nosy into my likes.

Kids in my school long ago decided that I was demon possessed for some odd reason, resulting in being ostricized and being
left to my own devices, for better or for worse.

When they saw me reading the books, they have taken it a step further, and many kids have come up and told me "I'll pray for you/ your soul."

My response is usually "Cthulu shall devour your soul!", or "Don't bother. I have no soul."

It's worth the look on their faces.

I was raised Christian the first eight years of my life, till we stopped going to church.

My parents are actually more worried about the fact that i listen to metal then playing games.

Krak_kirby wrote:

He was really in a froth about the sins and temptations of role playing, with all the demons and devils and such. The kicker though, is when he started in about how role players rub their dice on the breasts of their sinful girlfriends for lucky rolls. I turned to my friends. "No wonder we're having such a tough time in our adventures, we need some girlfriends!"

I would like to see what kind of dnd that guy was watching.

garret wrote:

Krak_kirby wrote:

He was really in a froth about the sins and temptations of role playing, with all the demons and devils and such. The kicker though, is when he started in about how role players rub their dice on the breasts of their sinful girlfriends for lucky rolls. I turned to my friends. "No wonder we're having such a tough time in our adventures, we need some girlfriends!"

I would like to see what kind of dnd that guy was watching.

Probally FATAL.

mattyrm wrote:M..M...Must.... remain.... silent.......

Hush, we've already heard about how Minarets interrupt your DND sessions with their loud noises.

I was in Catholic school until college. The only thing I'd heard about was an English teacher who proclaimed Magic cards were the devil.

We even asked one of our religion teachers to be the moderator for a gaming club, and she agreed if we could get the school to approve the club(they didn't because they felt the Chess club was enough for the same type of thing).

I can answer this, being that I attend one of those evangelical tongue speaking Churches. I think the main problem is that most evangelical Christians have a huge misunderstanding of what D&D and other fantasy games are about. To be honest I don't like playing with Chaos miniatures just because of the references to the demonic(But that's my choice).
Now, I realize, of course, that this is "just a game", and THAT chaos miniature could just as well be a fluffy bunny and use the same game mechanics. I don't believe that playing a game with a demonic related theme, is a door to posession because I know that it's pretend and fantasy.

The problem comes from the misunderstanding that a lot of Church people have towards fantasy. They don't understand that it's pretend and fantasy, they think you are really "toying" with the demonic and that's why they react the way they do.

I have heard that the game "Chaos in the old world" is a great game. I won't buy it or play it however, because it goes a little too far overboard towards the demonic for my taste. (Like having stretched human skin as the paying area for instance). I wouldn't want to play a game with pornography in it either.

When I first became a Christian one of the guys from my Church came into my house and saw all of my D&D miniatures and other stuff and recomended that I get rid of all of this stuff because he thought it could "open a door" to demons. Because I was a new Christian, and didn't know any better, I listened to him and "purged" my house of all the D&D stuff. I realize now that, that advice was misled(although good intentioned).

Demons are real, but there is a big difference between a hobby wargame(fantasy) and actually going around drawing a pentagram circle and praying to demons(reality).

GG

There is a strong aesthetic link between the fantastic and the divine, which often creates an associative problem for the true believer. Taking care to be inoffensive: its difficult for many deeply religious people to draw the line between fantasy and reality.

dogma wrote:There is a strong aesthetic link between the fantastic and the divine, which often creates an associative problem for the true believer. Taking care to be inoffensive: its difficult for many deeply religious people to draw the line between fantasy and reality.

Thats both insulting and lacking support in any way, shape, or form.

I went to a very conservative Catholic (I'm using these as two different and unrelated adjectives) law school and regularly played D&D with two groups there. One was all Catholic and the other was a mix of Catholics and Protestants. The first group was more culturally Catholic, with two members having actually practiced Wicca or Santeria (before basically giving them up as silly), and the idea that D&D could be anti-Christian or soul-imperilling never, ever came up except as a joke.

In the other group, one gent (a Catholic, to my shame) eventually said he felt like he needed to stop playing as he was not comfortable with the idea of clerics and gods, etc. He has since started playing again. Other members of that same group were once rolling up characters for arena-style combat while chilling at a hotel (they were out of town for a moot court competition, I think) when one of our fellow students (also Catholic, to my shame) gave them an unsolicited sermon about them going to hell.

I'll echo dogma's sentiment about religious people having trouble distinguishing between fantasy and reality. I'll only quibble with one point: it's not just the religious. I've met plenty of self-described agnostics and atheists who subscribe to all sorts of conspiracy theories, belief in ghosts or aliens, etc, etc.


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Frazzled wrote:

dogma wrote:There is a strong aesthetic link between the fantastic and the divine, which often creates an associative problem for the true believer. Taking care to be inoffensive: its difficult for many deeply religious people to draw the line between fantasy and reality.

Thats both insulting and lacking support in any way, shape, or form.

I disagree with both parts of your assessment, Frazz. I'm not offended at all by it as it perfectly fits my own experiences. I've often found that my co-religionists think of human history as a great cosmic battle between good and evil (which isn't even a Christian notion, you damn Zoroastrian heathens!) with "evil" being anyone who doesn't agree with them about contemporary political issues.

I go to Church with my family every Sunday, but I am not a Christian. It's a pretty full on church, praying in tounges and faith healing ect. I sometimes get a little disturbed when I see people collapse and start shaking. (And no they don't have epilepsy)

My parents are often worried when they see things like Codex front pages involving deamons and the like. They often tell me that they're worried about what I'm 'washing my brain' with. They've said the same about Dakka. Despite this, I've never had a group of strange people rush into my room and start praying for me. I would find that incredibly freaky.

Frazzled wrote:
Thats both insulting and lacking support in any way, shape, or form.

As Manchu said, the statement can be applied equally to anyone who spends most of their time using their intellect. There's a reason that highly educated people tend to be lacking in social graces, and it isn't simply a matter of insufficient familiarity.

Why do you go to church if you are not Christian?

Coming from a more liberal perspective and an anglican church, I've played Chaos Daemons against a vicar (A necron player).
I lost.
Exorcism?

I'm a Southern Baptist (fairly evangelical/fundamental Christian), and I play 40k and have played DND/Roleplaying games in the past. While I remember seeing some of the crazy DND=the Devil tracts way back when, I'd say most people in the church are more likely to look at you funny for the amount of money we spend on 40k and stuff than the actual content. I do think a lot of the hoopla was because of ignorance of what roleplaying is, as mentioned by generalgrog.

It's funny this discussion has come up, as I've been thinking of starting a new army and I'm bouncing between Chaos Demons and the new Nids. I think the mechanics and units of Demons would be fun to play and paint, but I'm not sure how I feel about the whole fluff thing. I personally believe that demons (just not the GW variety) are real, and having an army inspired by them is probably just a bit outside my comfort zone. That's just a personal thing, though, and I would never think of trying to impose my views on anyone else.

Gornall wrote: I think the mechanics and units of Demons would be fun to play and paint, but I'm not sure how I feel about the whole fluff thing. I personally believe that demons (just not the GW variety) are real, and having an army inspired by them is probably just a bit outside my comfort zone. That's just a personal thing, though, and I would never think of trying to impose my views on anyone else.

That's pretty much the way I think as well. Being outside my confort zone is well put. I always liked the nurgle theme, but never could get past the idea of playing as a demonic force.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

dogma wrote: There's a reason that highly educated people tend to be lacking in social graces, and it isn't simply a matter of insufficient familiarity.

I disagree with this, as I find it a sign of high intelligence that you understand your fellow man enough to develop social graces. (Aspergers syndrome not included, because I know they can't always help themselves)

Your comment sounds like more of someone looking for an excuse for being a jerk. I would classify that as an enabler.

GG

Speaking of tracts . . .






















Courtesy Jack Chick

GeneralGrog wrote:I disagree with this, as I find it a sign of high intelligence that you understand your fellow man enough to develop social graces. (Aspergers syndrome not included, because I know they can't always help themselves)

Your comment sounds like more of someone looking for an excuse for being a jerk. I would classify that as an enabler.

You're conflating intelligence with education, and interest. The only reason those concepts should ever be associated is one of personal desire: ie. you want to believe 'intelligence' denotes only those people who think as you do.

That said, explanations are both excuses, and enablers for most people. Though, again, that's a matter of emotion rather than logical classification. It doesn't matter that someone is a jerk because he has asperger's if all you care about is eliminating jerkish behavior.

I think, dogma, people get wound up in your phraseology and even your clarifications are obfuscating unless people put a LOT of effort into following your line of thought.