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Frazzled wrote:

dogma wrote:There is a strong aesthetic link between the fantastic and the divine, which often creates an associative problem for the true believer. Taking care to be inoffensive: its difficult for many deeply religious people to draw the line between fantasy and reality.

Thats both insulting and lacking support in any way, shape, or form.

I don't see why, the concept of faith involves believing despite a lack of evidence. When you structure a belief system on things that do not exist physically, then I don't see how it's hard to have other things (posession through dnd being the impetus for the topic) get in there.

Manchu wrote:I think, dogma, people get wound up in your phraseology and even your clarifications are obfuscating unless people put a LOT of effort into following your line of thought.

I think I should start ending all my posts with "...that doesn't mean its bad." because my indifference to conventionally negative concepts never seems to come off.

Whenver Imperial Space Marines fight Chaos it is a battle for your very soul and I'm not kidding either. Use the fork.

G

dogma wrote:

Manchu wrote:I think, dogma, people get wound up in your phraseology and even your clarifications are obfuscating unless people put a LOT of effort into following your line of thought.

I think I should start ending all my posts with "...that doesn't mean its bad." because my indifference to conventionally negative concepts never seems to come off.

I'd go with "not that there's anything wrong with that!"

That tract is pure manipulation, and I would go so far to say it is an outright lie. While it is certainly possible that someone who practiced witchcraft/occult to be involved with D&D. That tract tries to manipulate the reader into believing that EVERYONE that is a dungeon master is a leader of a coven, or at the very least is somehow a gateway into the occult.

Utter garbage. Jack Chick does make some descent tracts, but garbage like that makes his whole ministry look like buffoonery.

GG

In Utah, a group of parents and anti gamers types had a rally, and a church official told them not to hate what they consider the devil more than they love God.
That comment shut 'em down right quickish.


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I know some of the people that wrote the original D&D manuals and they are the most religious people I know.

Jack Chick does make some descent tracts, but garbage like that makes his whole ministry look like buffoonery.

Thats like saying the westboro baptist church has some nice sermons. Jack Chick is a pure douche.

dogma wrote:

Frazzled wrote:
Thats both insulting and lacking support in any way, shape, or form.

As Manchu said, the statement can be applied equally to anyone who spends most of their time using their intellect. There's a reason that highly educated people tend to be lacking in social graces, and it isn't simply a matter of insufficient familiarity.

In all fairness, I know a high number of well educated people, and far more are quite social and courteous than are not.


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ShumaGorath wrote:

Jack Chick does make some descent tracts, but garbage like that makes his whole ministry look like buffoonery.

Thats like saying the westboro baptist church has some nice sermons. Jack Chick is a pure douche.

I'm Mormon and his tracts on Mormon religion crack me up with the ignorance displayed.

Another religion debacle thread in progress. I thought this forum has rules.

G

ShumanGorath wrote: westboro baptist church

Those people are sick, they go to death soldiers funerals with signs saying "Thank god for dead soldiers" etc.

Green Blow Fly wrote:Another religion debacle thread in progress. I thought this forum has rules.

G

The fact that you are still around should tell you it doesn't.

I've had no problems with religion and gaming to them I could be doing worse things like drugs or being in a gang shooting people

Green Blow Fly wrote:Another religion debacle thread in progress. I thought this forum has rules.

G

Evidently not. Its become open season on people of faith, especially christians. I'm debating shifting only to read only mode for Dakka.




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ShumaGorath wrote:

Green Blow Fly wrote:Another religion debacle thread in progress. I thought this forum has rules.

G

The fact that you are still around should tell you it doesn't.

And yourself.

Lord-Loss wrote:

ShumanGorath wrote: westboro baptist church

Those people are sick, they go to death soldiers funerals with signs saying "Thank god for dead soldiers" etc.

I'm pretty sure they do that stuff as a money making scheme, hoping to generate a law suit from a family member socking them one.

GG

I'm semi-religious, so here's my take on it.

40k/Fantasy obviously have some ideas that clash with Catholicism.

Here's the word I use every time: "So?"

I mean, I don't WORSHIP the damn game, it's not like I believe it is real, I can actually separate fact from fiction, and I honestly don't see how it is a sin.

I can still believe in God and play Warhammer. Those who do not believe so are blind.

And yourself.

You fall under that heading too. Honestly if you banned all three of us half this forums flamewars would disappear and 90% of its spam threads.

generalgrog wrote:Utter garbage. Jack Chick does make some descent tracts, but garbage like that makes his whole ministry look like buffoonery.

You should see his one on Catholicism . . .

MeanGreenStompa wrote:
My granma belonged to an Evangelical church (speaking in tongues, faith healing etc) and one day whilst at her house for dinner after school, her church friends arranged to 'intervene' with me, basically they all showed up and took my books out of my college bag and started waving them about and speaking in tongues and pointing at me and crying out that that my soul was in peril and that they had been warned about the darkness contained in the games I was playing.
My Gran then pleaded with me to stop reading the books or playing the games (all of which were dungeons and dragons as far as her friends were concerned) and cried because the most fervent in her church had convinced her I would be going to hell or possessed.

A friend of mine, who's parents moved from their regular methodist church to this same evangelical church took all his books, figures and posters and burnt it all and again they too tried to 'intervene' with his friends and take our books and figures from us.

Talk about traumatic experiences; holy cow!

I really don't think its necessarily religion or being religious thats the crux of the issue; rather its those people's inner-demons so to speak. They seem to have loathsome personality traits and a need for power and control over young family members such as yourself; sure religion may help justify or rationalize their actions but acting that way is the very opposite of the core tenets of Christianity. Hell, you were basically persecuted over toy soldiers!

Also might have to do with people not really understanding whats going on with young ones and their hobbies just like how Elvis and rock and roll music was thought to be "the devil" back when that stuff was new to the scene. However it definitely doesn't help that Games Workshop stuff is the epitome of grimdark and has daemons and anarchist/satanist-esque iconography and armies; nor does it help that its a bunch of long haired druid-looking people called nerds that play the game which might add on even more to their negative perception. The GW hobby could also be seen as a gateway/slippery-slope to social and religious ideas that they don't approve of and likely don't really understand either.

You can always try and talk to the preacher about such a situation; chances are he'll side with the GW nerd and might even address the malicious naysayers especially if you ask for his help rationally and politely.

I'll echo the opinions of few others here. I grew up in a religious home, my mother was (and still is on the lookout for my eternal soul. When I started playing D&D she was concerned, esp w/ the whole Dark Dungeon thing in the news and what not. I explained to her that is wasn't different from Conan, etc and she was okay with it as long as I kept my grades up. The only time her moral compass stopped me from gaming was preventing me from buying Blood Bowl in the late '80's due tot he violent name.

I've played nearly any RPG that came out in the late '80's and early '90s, and there's nothing wrong with it as long as you are mentally stable. The only cases of RPG related stupidity could be directly related to mental instability on the part of the perp.

I will say that it has influenced my choices in characters and armies. I usually play the good guys or the trickster. My armies are Tau, Arbites, and UltraMarines.

It has less to do w/ the game and more to do w/ the person. As to the OP's experience, oh dear Lord.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Green Blow Fly wrote:Another religion debacle thread in progress. I thought this forum has rules.

G

The fact that you are still around should tell you it doesn't.

troll is obvious troll.

G

Forgive me for having not read the rest of the posts, because I'm afeared that things have gone South. (har har).

One of my jobs is to be a Youth Leader at a United Church near my house, here in Alberta (considered the most redneck province in Canada).

I grew up going to church each Sunday (when I wanted to, which waxed and waned until High School, when it became a really good source of support for me and lured me in every day). The churches I'm familiar with are all a part of the overarching United Church of Canada. We're Christian, though technically Presbyterian or something similar. I'm not 100% sure how to brand us.

Now, I do know one way that we're branded. Even though my faith is a part of my life and it's even part of my livelihood, to a large majority of Christians in North America, I'm going to hell. I believe a lot of things that 'The Church' (if people are going to keep up the pretense that it's a single overarching thing) considers to be, quite frankly, heresy. We United Churchgoers are a particularly liberal (used without any relation to US partisan politics) group of folks. Quite frankly, a lot of the things I see and hear coming from evangelical Christians scare the gak out of me. Ever seen the movie Jesus Camp? It's a documentary which, (and this is the scariest part) the people who are the subject of it love, and think is a great demonstration of what they're about, and which also scares people who don't have the same beliefs. But I'm digressing.

So, with this as a background, no, my gaming hasn't been a problem for me, and I've never once in my life feared that it would become a theological issue. The way people spend their free time is up to them. I don't believe in the Old Testament God who destroys cities, culls the world with floods, and turns wimmin into salt. Really, the God I believe in thinks it's great that people have such good imaginations. Is it a problem if someone without a good grip on reality does unpleasant things that could have been motivated by something like Warhammer, yes. Is it the material's fault, or the Devil's fault?

No.

I actually tend to think of Satan as a the four god of chaos combined (not in a obsessed with 40k or anything but just as a way of explaining to my friends why i keep muttering blood for the blood got LOL i am a 40k satanist)

Lord-Loss wrote:Why do you go to church if you are not Christian?

I have often asked myself the same thing. I sometimes tell myself that I go out of respect to my parents, which is true to some extent. I don't grind my heels in the dirt or anything to upset them. However, I was given the choice Go or Get Out. As I'm still in school, doing my HSC next year and not quite ready to set up shop myself, I've decided to play along for now.

If a troll tells the truth is it still a troll?


I'm a Pastafarian and my dad isn't a very devout Christian, so I've never had a problem. A friend of mine is part of a devout Catholic family though, and I now he's had some problems with his parents about 40k. Might have something to do with me yelling "Blood for the Blood God!" when I was at his house.

The only issue I have ever had is not letting my Dad's side of the fam. see any of the games I play (dnd, magic, 40k and such). My dad is just worried about the grimness, Hes a teacher so hes seen the worst case of letting this stuff take over, but the rest of fam are the hard core chirstians.
I think its people choice to decide what they belive in and thats all there is to it.

Emperors Faithful wrote:
I have often asked myself the same thing. I sometimes tell myself that I go out of respect to my parents, which is true to some extent. I don't grind my heels in the dirt or anything to upset them. However, I was given the choice Go or Get Out. As I'm still in school, doing my HSC next year and not quite ready to set up shop myself, I've decided to play along for now.

When I was still living at home I was in a similar position. My father is a minister, and while he didn't really care whether or not I attended, his congregation generally did. So I had to get up every Sunday (at least on the Sundays when I didn't have wrestling practice) in order to appease the more vocal members of the flock. What's interesting is that I still go to Church fairly often, though its more of an exercise in research and networking than it is an affirmation of my beliefs (that aren't there).

Well I was raised as Catholic,but people had never done those things to me.My religious studies teacher has been actually impressed by mine sketches of liveries,space marines,heavy bolter,eldar etc.....
I never had those experiences and before I wasn't regular at going to the church,but now I am.

ShumaGorath wrote:

And yourself.

You fall under that heading too. Honestly if you banned all three of us half this forums flamewars would disappear and 90% of its spam threads.

Well.. i kinda like everyone on here who is cantankerous. I dont think id come back if you three upped sticks.

moral panics simply happen. There was a huge one with D&D in the 80's and, much like american music, American moral panics take longer to reach the corners of the globe. I'd guess that people in certain sects, particularly those that see the devil as a real force in the world, can sometimes get caught up in the fervor of slugging it out with demonic forces.

I think this is where Dogma's point comes in. I wouldn't say that the deeply religious have a hard time telling reality from fantasy, but it's more of a "when all you have is a hammer, all you see are nails" sort of situation. They have an assertive faith, and so they start to see enemies of that faith in the shadows. It's human nature.

Polonius wrote:

I wouldn't say that the deeply religious have a hard time telling reality from fantasy, but it's more of a "when all you have is a hammer, all you see are nails" sort of situation.

I've never heard that saying before, but it makes sense.