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Is the Mawloc allowed to place its original deep strike position on top of units to take advantage of its ability?

In the white dwarf it says that a mawloc arrived directly below a terminator unit and killed 2 of them.

The Mawloc doesn't have any specific rules allowing it to deep strike onto an enemy unit, but if my memory serves me correctly there wouldn't be anything preventing it normally anyway.

Drunkspleen wrote:The Mawloc doesn't have any specific rules allowing it to deep strike onto an enemy unit, but if my memory serves me correctly there wouldn't be anything preventing it normally anyway.

Agreed.

Correct, actually any DS unit could place the first model over an enemy unit, it would just mean they would probably Mishap. However the Mawloc has specific rules that tell you it doesn't roll on the Mishap table, and you place the blast marker instead.

I don't think it can deploy there but maybe it can come out on turn one?

It can ds into enemy units and when it does instead of checking for mishaps you place a large blast template over and all under take str 6 ap 2 hit. Also he may go back under and repeat the process though he can't go back under the same turn he deeps strikes.


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For those interested I can send you the rule from the codex.

On top of that any thing that survives the str 6 ap2 hit (unit, and vehicles are always hit on the rear armour) gets pushed out of the way, then the mawloc comes up, if they cannot be moved the min distance away from Impassable or w/e they are destroyed.

He is pretty nasty, but his big bro is a wee bit worse, In my opinion. (trygon!)

What makes him work well is he also has hit and run with I 4. So he can break CC and burrow his turn. And I fully agree Trygon = nastier.

Peronally, I think the Mawloc is a pretty good answer for things like Long Fang Packs or other heavy weapon squads tucked away in cover. The ability to run and hide to save a kill point or contest an objective late game is being under appreciated, in my mind.

I don't know.
You can't place the initial model of a DS on impassible terrain.
Enemy models count as impassible terrain.

Now if the Mawloc has its own rules about it then it's all good, but I don't think you can aim the first model on an enemy model....you have to place the model on the board.

So...you'd have to scatter onto the enemy, at least that's how I remember the DS rules.

There's nothing in the DS rules that say you cannot place a DS model on another one, it just says that if you do land there you will have to roll on the Mishap table. However the Mawlocs rules say you place the blast template instead of rolling on the Mishap table.

If you couldn't place the Mawloc on enemy units, there wouldn't be any point to him causing a blast template when he pops up, unless your hoping to catch a few guys on the outskirts of it.

Mawlocs ignore the normal deepstrike rules - they can pick whatever point they wish and deepstrike there (Mawloc special rule). The point where they land, you place the large blast template and everyone touched by it suffers a Str 6, AP2 hit. Then you place the Mawloc there. Anyone who is not killed by it is moved 1" away from the Mawloc, still maintaing unit coherency. If units are not able to be moved 1" away from it (like if it was surrounded by other enemy models, then it would be destroyed. Vehicles touched by it take a Str 6 hit on their back armor, even though it is a blast template there are no partial Str hits.

Where I'm a little fuzzy on the rule interpretation is if it touches enemy units in CC. The rules state they need to stay in combat with the unit they are already in CC with, but still take the damage (like if a blast weapon scattered). But everyone still needs to stay an inch away from the Mawloc, so I'm guessing the entire combat will need to be moved to maintain the distance? I didn't see anything in there about placing the template near a CC that would affect enemy models in CC - I'm wondering if that would be allowed or considered a bending of the rules, as Mawlocs don't have to abide by the usual restrictions for deep striking. I could see players getting a unit of Space Marine Terminators tied up in combat for a round, then deep striking their Mawloc right next to it so the blast template would catch them and affect them in CC (and the resulting argument that would ensue).

Sanctjud wrote:I don't know.
You can't place the initial model of a DS on impassible terrain.
Enemy models count as impassible terrain.

Now if the Mawloc has its own rules about it then it's all good, but I don't think you can aim the first model on an enemy model....you have to place the model on the board.

So...you'd have to scatter onto the enemy, at least that's how I remember the DS rules.

When he DS on top of your units they either die to a str 6 ap2 large blast template or any that are not killed by that are forced to move outside the radius template allowing the room for the Mawlok to arrive in place of the large blast template. Also if you don't have room for your unit OR vehicles, because of the proximaty of enemy units or impassible terrain, to move outside the large blast template then they are destroied as well.

That sounds fun, but from what I've read in the bat reps, it's been 'so-so' so far.

@Airmang:
I'll just have to look when I get back home.
For normal DS, you must PLACE the model on the board... you can't put a model physically on an opponents', it's not said that's allowed in the rulebook .

As for the Mawloc, as expected it has its own rules.

Yes, he can. Simple really

The Mawlocs special rules don't come into play when you deepstrike, they come into play when you mishap.

So doesn't that mean you must follow all normal deepstriking rules up until that point?

In the deep striking rules it says you have to "place" the model on the board. It can be within 1" of an enemy if you want but it has to be actually "placed" on the board. If you want to put it on top of enemy models shouldn't you only be able to do it if you can actually "place" it there on top of the enemy models?

Might be a bit tricky given all the pointy sword bits many models have...

Also if the inability to place the mawloc ontop of enemy models makes you think it is somehow useless, remember that it doesn't work like a normal blast marker. Any unit with a model under the template suffers a number of hits equal to the models in that unit.

So the best way to use it is to place your mawloc within 1" of an enemy unit forcing an automatic mishap (edit: if you actually hit on the scatter dice).

NeoMaul wrote:In the deep striking rules it says you have to "place" the model on the board.

No. You use the model as a marker for where the unit will land. Once you scatter, you deploy the initial model and then form concentric rings. If any of those models land in a no-no place, it causes a mishap. There is no prohibition to deliberately causing a unit of yours to mishap. If there was, there would be no need to explicitly forbid it in the "Misplaced" result (which forbids an opponent doing it to force multiple mishap checks).

TheJuan wrote: Also if you don't have room for your unit OR vehicles, because of the proximaty of enemy units or impassible terrain, to move outside the large blast template then they are destroied as well.

This is the part that worries me, that is so easy to abuse to murder units without saves, wounds or anything else coming into play to defend them. You should never be able to kill things without any recourse like that (not even an I check like the much maligned Jaws of the World wolf)

As to the rules query, the Deep Strike rule require the model to be placed "anywhere on the table" I'd certainly be prepared to argue that that does not permit one to set them on top of opposing models. It can certainly be placed in base to base or within one inch freely, but on top of other models is not on the table top.

So unless the Mawloc's rules change that I'd argue "permissive ruleset, no option listed for placing on other models."

Jack

Gwar! wrote:

NeoMaul wrote:In the deep striking rules it says you have to "place" the model on the board.

No. You use the model as a marker for where the unit will land. Once you scatter, you deploy the initial model and then form concentric rings. If any of those models land in a no-no place, it causes a mishap. There is no prohibition to deliberately causing a unit of yours to mishap. If there was, there would be no need to explicitly forbid it in the "Misplaced" result (which forbids an opponent doing it to force multiple mishap checks).

I didn't say that there is a prohibition to deliberately causing a mishap, what I said was that the rules are quite clear that you need to place the first model on the actual board. It doesn't say put a marker there and then place the model when it scatters.

The rules actually say "place one model from the unit anywhere on the table in the position you would like the unit to arrive". It says place the model on the table. Technically by raw you can place it anywhere right? But are you actually placing it down? Or are you cheating by just holding it over the pointy spikey squad of bloodletters with swords and banners going everywhere? Placing it down means somehow balancing it on those models.

NeoMaul wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

NeoMaul wrote:In the deep striking rules it says you have to "place" the model on the board.

No. You use the model as a marker for where the unit will land. Once you scatter, you deploy the initial model and then form concentric rings. If any of those models land in a no-no place, it causes a mishap. There is no prohibition to deliberately causing a unit of yours to mishap. If there was, there would be no need to explicitly forbid it in the "Misplaced" result (which forbids an opponent doing it to force multiple mishap checks).

I didn't say that there is a prohibition to deliberately causing a mishap, what I said was that the rules are quite clear that you need to place the first model on the actual board. It doesn't say put a marker there and then place the model when it scatters.

The rules actually say "place one model from the unit anywhere on the table in the position you would like the unit to arrive". It says place the model on the table. Technically by raw you can place it anywhere right? But are you actually placing it down? Or are you cheating by just holding it over the pointy spikey squad of bloodletters with swords and banners going everywhere? Placing it down means somehow balancing it on those models.

Wobbly Model Syndrome.

Next!

Also I agree with jackmojo. If your mawloc is somehow balancing ontop of a model (possible with a rhino), has it actually been placed on the board as per the rules?

Its not on the board, its on the rhino which is on the board. Which isn't the same thing.


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Gwar! wrote:

NeoMaul wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

NeoMaul wrote:In the deep striking rules it says you have to "place" the model on the board.

No. You use the model as a marker for where the unit will land. Once you scatter, you deploy the initial model and then form concentric rings. If any of those models land in a no-no place, it causes a mishap. There is no prohibition to deliberately causing a unit of yours to mishap. If there was, there would be no need to explicitly forbid it in the "Misplaced" result (which forbids an opponent doing it to force multiple mishap checks).

I didn't say that there is a prohibition to deliberately causing a mishap, what I said was that the rules are quite clear that you need to place the first model on the actual board. It doesn't say put a marker there and then place the model when it scatters.

The rules actually say "place one model from the unit anywhere on the table in the position you would like the unit to arrive". It says place the model on the table. Technically by raw you can place it anywhere right? But are you actually placing it down? Or are you cheating by just holding it over the pointy spikey squad of bloodletters with swords and banners going everywhere? Placing it down means somehow balancing it on those models.

Wobbly Model Syndrome.

Next!

Works only for terrain, not enemy models.

NeoMaul wrote:Works only for terrain, not enemy models.

Enemy models count as Impassible Terrain. Nothing stops you deep striking into Impassible terrain if you really really want.

Jackmojo wrote:

TheJuan wrote: Also if you don't have room for your unit OR vehicles, because of the proximaty of enemy units or impassible terrain, to move outside the large blast template then they are destroied as well.

This is the part that worries me, that is so easy to abuse to murder units without saves, wounds or anything else coming into play to defend them. You should never be able to kill things without any recourse like that (not even an I check like the much maligned Jaws of the World wolf)

As to the rules query, the Deep Strike rule require the model to be placed "anywhere on the table" I'd certainly be prepared to argue that that does not permit one to set them on top of opposing models. It can certainly be placed in base to base or within one inch freely, but on top of other models is not on the table top.

So unless the Mawloc's rules change that I'd argue "permissive ruleset, no option listed for placing on other models."

Jack

He has special rules in the codex that allow him to ds on top of an enemy unit. It is basically a assault 1 large blast str 6 ap 2 shooting attack that has no BS so subtracts nothing from the deviation and can only be used every other round starting with round 2 IF I repeat IF you roll high enough for him to come in on turn 2 from reserves. So yea not quite as great as it might seem.


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Oh and to clarify it a little more the blast happens before he is placed. The Mawloc is not placed until all wounds from the blast are resolved and any surviving units are pushed the minimum distance outside the large blast marker while keeping the same facing.

TheJuan wrote:
He has special rules in the codex that allow him to ds on top of an enemy unit. It is basically a assault 1 large blast str 6 ap 2 shooting attack that has no BS so subtracts nothing from the deviation and can only be used every other round starting with round 2 IF I repeat IF you roll high enough for him to come in on turn 2 from reserves. So yea not quite as great as it might seem.

Yeah this is fine, I have no issue with nasty blast weapons, its that little caveat about things being automatically removed if they cannot move off the template...surround 3 sides of a land raider with gaunts, strike in Mawloc, dead tank. If its' not as bad as all that, by all means let me know.

TheJuan wrote:
Oh and to clarify it a little more the blast happens before he is placed. The Mawloc is not placed until all wounds from the blast are resolved and any surviving units are pushed the minimum distance outside the large blast marker while keeping the same facing.

This resolves the rules interaction with Deepstrike fine then. I have no issues with this (beyond my general dislike for things which move your opponents units beyond their control).

Jack

I've always played that you can't deep strike on top of impassible terrain.

BGB p.14 wrote:IMPASSIBLE TERRAIN
Models may not be placed in impassible terrain unless the models concerned have a special rule in their profile granting them an exception

BGB p.95 wrote:DEEP STRIKE
First place a model anywhere on the table, in the position you would like the unit to arrive

I do not believe the language of Deep Strike is explicit enough to provide an exception.

Okay, So alot of Thinking based off the Mawloc, but lets face it, he cannot burrow and "resurface" in the same turn, and if you are going to Burrow him/deepstrike him in, you have to rely on Reserve rolls if you "hold" in reserve, so at the best, VERY best, he can come in on turn two, and Cause some damage, or if you deploy him, then again, Turn two, Now, If i am correct, Deep striking just states that you try to place you're model Via marker on the table, then roll you're scatter dice to determine where you wish for him to "hit" if he hits impassable terrian or within an inch of an enemy Marker, then he suffers "Deep strike Mishap" this is where the Mawloc is Different, his specific rules state that he dosn't suffer mishap for Hitting enemy units, that they suffer a Str 6 ap2 hit (not a shooting attack i belive, just a "hit", with an Ap value) Vehicles are hit on their Rear armour, and you roll the number of hits for the Number of models under the large blast template (i know there is no offical rule for that Gwar! bear with me!) anyhow. The survivers, even immobilized vehicles are "pushed" out of the way, the min distance and if they cannot, for example, surrounding the units, or they are pushed back to the edge of the table and impassable terrien, then they are Destroyed outright. Horrible i know. But lets take a look at all probabilities. First, he comes in on turn two, at best, so thats one Blast hit. A nasty one i know, but chance of not doing anything is still there, its not str 10 or nothing, it wounds on 2's mostly, but still. Now, he can still scatter "off" target as well, thus negating his effectivness all together (im sure some SM players who's Vinidcators missed with the Dem cannon can attest to how crappy -that- can be) anyhow. so one turn three, he can burrow again, then turn four, he comes up again, so far thats -two- overall chances of hitting. Turn five he can drop below again, and if it ends, he is destroyed (he is still in reserve when the games ends, thus he is considered a "lost" Unit, ie gives a kill point and all that jazz, if i am still correct) if the game continues to turn six, he gets a third, and final chance to do a str 6 ap2 large blast hit on probably a single unit, or something. Now. He costs about 170 points, base. is that -really- worth it for 170 points? he has 6 S 6 T and 6 W but a 0 BS 3 WS and 2 Attacks? (maybe 4 i can't remember off the top of my head) and thats without any fun upgrades. Yeah he is a Nasty thing to try and kill, but put one group of Power fists/thunder hammers on him and he is toast! and yeah he has Hit and run, but what if he fails to break, he just lost even more usefulness.

So in Review, he is expensive, has at the very best, with alot of risk only 3 chances of doing a S6 AP2 Large blast hit, he isn't to terrible awesome in close combat, nor is he terribly awsome for bringing in reserves, or well, being nasty. He has waaaaaay to many "risk" Factors, like, what if he scatters? he just lost one of a possible three chances to do anything.

Im just saying, id rather spend the 30 points for his big Bro, Mr. Trygon or Trygon Prime (200 and 245 points respectfully) for a close combat monster from heck, who is terribly nasty in close combat (7 attacks on the charge, and always able to reroll failed hits in close combat? str6? T6? 6 wounds?! OUCH!) and his Deepstrike lets him stop the min distance away from "mishap" and then his hole can be used by other infantry in you'r army to come up withing 6 inchs of it! great for a "sneaky back attack" on some of those "Devistators" or "Imp. Gaurd arty"



Just my humble opinion

I'm not exactly sure why everyone thinks that the deepstrike rules apply to the Mawloc. You pick a point - scatter. From there, you place a large blast template. Everyone hit, takes a Str 6 AP2 hit. Whoever survives, moves off the template. Then you place the Mawloc there. There aren't any models for him to land on, as they have already moved away from the large blast template if they survived.

Yes it could be abused by surrounding a land raider with gants and forcing it to have to move, but the chances of that happening and everything lining up are still pretty small. Of course, SM had the same problem in the last edition with the automatic disembark that had to happen when vehicles were damaged and the entry points were blocked by horde armies.

Something everyone is forgetting, when they say that you have to be lucky with your reserve rolls to bring it in. Start it on the board Turn 1, burrow down Turn 1 at the end of the movement phase, then you auto pop up Turn 2 - no requirement to roll for reserves then.

even if you cant place him on an enemy model [impassable terrain], you can place him in Base to Base with an enemy model, resolve the template then they get pushed away.

since at the end of the movement he will not be within 1" of the enemy model.

Mattbranb wrote:I'm not exactly sure why everyone thinks that the deepstrike rules apply to the Mawloc. You pick a point - scatter. From there, you place a large blast template. Everyone hit, takes a Str 6 AP2 hit. Whoever survives, moves off the template. Then you place the Mawloc there. There aren't any models for him to land on, as they have already moved away from the large blast template if they survived.

He is outright immune to Deepstrike mishaps (either from enemy models or in general)? Depending on orientation he could still indeed end up within 1 inch (5 inch long oval/5 inch diameter round template no?).

Does hiding in cover provide some protection from him or has the anti drop pod/deepstrike tight formation been rendered unusable if the mawloc is in play?

Mattbranb wrote:Yes it could be abused by surrounding a land raider with gants and forcing it to have to move, but the chances of that happening and everything lining up are still pretty small. Of course, SM had the same problem in the last edition with the automatic disembark that had to happen when vehicles were damaged and the entry points were blocked by horde armies.

Previously they had to beat the transports armour at least. This can be done just with clever use of reserves and lictors (without the lictors with some luck). When you can auto remove an opponents models simply based on the order you deploy deepstriking reserves (for example), that's a bit to much for me.

Jack

It is not a shooting attack so no cover saves

Not immune to mishaps, scattering off the table would surely generate a mishap - the wording for the trygon is exactly the same as for a drop pod.