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I swear to god people really need to develop reading comprehension skills.

General Rule
p. 14 Models may not be placed in impassable terrain unless the models concerned have a special rule in their profile granting them an exception

General Rule
p. 13 Remember that other models, friends and enemies, also count as impassable terrain

Special Rule
p. 95 First place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position you would like the unit to arrive.

Deep strike is a special rule – it’s listed under the Mission Special Rules. EVERY sentence within the deep strike rule is special. Special rules make exceptions to general rules; this instance being that you can place a model anywhere on the table in contradiction of the general rule that you can place a model anywhere on the table outside of impassable terrain or within 1” of an enemy figure… that’s what ANYWHERE means. It means ANYWHERE.
What’s more, when this issue is FAQ’d, it will certainly be FAQ’d in the way I’m interpreting it. So, by all means, continue to waste your time on this argument. I’m done here. My gaming club will certainly be interpreting things correctly so, if you feel like enjoying your new Tyranid codex as it was intended outside the influence of a handful of players who fancy themselves lawyers;

http://www.legionsgames.com/phpBB3/calendar.php?view=event&calEid=419&sid=ee3b9a55e72941156aa804c95c9dbcb9

Your attitude is laughable Incarna.

Disagreeing is fine, but doing so in a rude way and holier than thou attitude is childish.

The term anywhere is not specific enough to grant an exception. If a rule could use non-specific phrasing to allow you to place models in impassible terrain, why bother to even state that a special rule is needed?

Under your interpretation, the phrase "unless the models concerned have a special rule in their profile granting them an exception" has no function. Without that phrase, special rules would still grant an exception using similar wording simply by the nature of the ruleset - specific rules override general ones.

If you interpret it as I do, that you need a specific statement in a special rule exempting it from the limit of not placing in impassible terrain, on the other hand does give function to that phrase.

NeoMaul wrote:I think paidinfull has very clearly laid out the RaW for this.

The Mawloc's special rules come into play not when you begin its deepstrike, but when it mishaps on an enemy model.

Models can only be placed on impassable terrain if they have a special rule allowing it. The mawloc does not have this. All it has is rules for handling a mishap if it actually occurs.

The only potential counter point to this is on page 95 where it says "place the model anywhere on the board". The key word I guess is anywhere. However this rule is in contradiction to the rule on page 14 which states models may not be place in impassable terrain unless they have a special rule for it (which the mawloc doesn't).

Agreed. Have the new nid codex in front of me, and nothing in it gives the Mawloc a special rule for how it deepstrikes. IF it deepstrikes and lands on a unit, it details how to handle the situation. But there are no special rules allowing you to place it over other models. Best you can hope for is a good scatter.


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incarna wrote:I swear to god people really need to develop reading comprehension skills.

Social skills are valuble as well.)

Dracos wrote:

Disagreeing is fine, but doing so in a rude way and holier than thou attitude is childish.

QFT. Users are reminded of the posting guidelines.

@mikhaila
Thank you for verifying for us, but if you would be so kind as to provide a quote for Subterranean Assault I would greatly appreciate it. You or I or theJuan, saying this is how the rule is worded isn't as helpful as having the RAW to compare. From what I remember it has the "USR" Deep Strike (Even though Deep Strike technically isn't a universal special rule) and Subterranean Assault as you've pointed out.

@Dracos
I agree with you that I do not feel the term "anywhere" is an exception to permit any model to be placed in impassable terrain that does not have a special rule that permits it. Before this I don't think any of us actually attempted to DS on impassable terrain so it hadn't occurred to me, but I had always had the impression you couldn't intentionally Deep Strike on enemy models or impassable terrain.

@Incarna
A question.
Prior to the Bug Codex coming out, would you have permitted your opponent to place a model on top of another model?
Would you permit your opponent to purposefully begin a Deep Strike move in impassable terrain?
How about a Drop Pod or Monolith? Can a Monolith begin it's Deep Strike move in impassable terrain? Neither a Drop Pod nor a Monolith may be placed in impassable terrain.
Here is a quote for the Monolith

By RAW neither a monolith or drop pod may target a point, to begin their Deep Strike move, that is considered impassable terrain. No model that I am aware of may, though it's possible skimmers can choose to "float over" impassable terrain and a couple skimmers have that rule.

An example of special rules that do permit models to be in impassable terrain are:


If you cannot see the above images please see Codex Necrons for Natural Law(C'tan), Wraithflight(Wraiths), Deep Strike(Monolith)... i'm just way too lazy to type all that up.

Gwar, to his own undoing, pointed out something that I feel even further supports the RAW, no model is allowed to be placed in Impassable terrain unless they have a special rule that permits it

BRB p.95 wrote:3-4 Misplaced Your opponent may deploy the unit anywhere on the table (excluding impassable terrain, but including difficult terrain, which of course counts as dangerous for deep striking units!), in a valid deep strike formation, but without rolling for scatter.

This clearly establishes a precedent that a valid Deep Strike placement is not achieved by placing a model in impassable terrain.

It's quite possible that the RAI for this Mawloc is as you and I first thought. TRY to Deep Strike onto enemy models. At this point the RAW doesn't indicate that, from what I understand, it only adjusts the Mishap result in the event you scatter onto enemy models.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Correction a Monolith could target Enemy Models as it is a skimmer, though the Monolith rule only seems to effect the Terrible Accident result on the Mishap table.

paidinfull wrote:A question.
Prior to the Bug Codex coming out, would you have permitted your opponent to place a model on top of another model?

Yes, the previous bug codex had spore mines as FA choices, pretty much for exactly that reason.

Please note that the spore mines you are referencing also follow the normal Deep Strike rules.
"Coming into contact for any reason" could make it an exception to legally being placed on the board first.

BRB p. 95 wrote:First place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position you would like the unit to arrive

Again, the normal Deep Strike process is to place a model on the table first. "Detonation" is a special rule that would allow it to be placed onto enemy models, but not in impassable terrain.

So you think it is not allowed to place models on terrain?

Or ruins?

Or one of those battle boards that is covering the table?

Or paint?


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Also, contact is made after the DS -- otherwise they could NEVER miss.

Not sure what your point is.
You quoted the rules so I'm confused why you are focusing on "paint"...

Would you be able to start a Deep Strike move with a Drop Pod by placing it in Impassable Terrain? No.
Would any model without a special rule that allows it to enter impassable terrain be considered legally placed if deployed/place in impassable terrain? No.

p13 Models = Impassable Terrain
p14 Models may not be place in Impassable Terrain
p95 First place a model anywhere on the table
p95 Your opponent may deploy the unit anywhere on the table (excluding impassable terrain)

It's pretty clear that unless a unit has a special rule that permits it, a RAW Deep Strike move may not begin if the model cannot be placed legally on the table.

You seem to think that placing a model on top of another model is legal, when by what you've quoted it's clearly not.


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#contact is made afterwards
If that is your sentiment then you are not able to begin a Deep Strike move with the Spore Clusters on top of another model.

Focusing on?

No.

You keep saying that models must be ON THE TABLE.

Not on things on the table.

Also, the Deepstrike move begins off the table. A model is placed -- on the table -- to represent where the move will take place. When the scatter is resolved, (even scatter of 0") the unit then moves to the location described.

DS allows placement "anywhere". Not "anywhere except in terrain". "Anywhere on the table" is easily read as an allowance to be placed anywhere on the table.

@Kirsanth
After your point of illustrating that models are impassable terrain and that models may not be placed in impassable terrain unless permitted, you are completely contradicting yourself.

You're attempting to twist the RAW to say something it isn't. Under the DS rules no model is allowed to begin it's DS move in impassable terrain, unless it has a special rule (Not DS) that permits it.
Does the Mawloc have a rule that allows the controlling player to place the model on top of another model or in impassable terrain?

The DS does not begin off the table.
You will notice the word FIRST indicates the point at which the move begins because that is the FIRST thing you do.
Nowhere within this text does it state as you have claimed
1) The model placed is a "marker" and should be ignored for all other purposes
2) That normal Deep Strike moves can begin by placing a model in impassable terrain
3) The Mawloc is an exception to the normal DS sequence

You will also note the sentence.
They may not DS directly inside a transport vehicle or a building which will count as impassable terrain as normal.

I really think this conversation is done unless you are able to provide a quote from Codex Tyranids that specifically permits a Mawloc to begin it's DS move by being placed on an enemy model. The only thing I have seen handles the event that the Mawloc scatters onto enemy models and then what to do instead of rolling on the Mishap chart.

And impassable terrain normally causes mishaps, normally.

Interestingly enough, there are models allowed to be placed on impassable terrain, normally -- so the caveat is letting you know that the DS cannot be resolved normally when impassable terrain is scattered into (even 0").

You will also note that the "may not deepstrike into" part is talking about the resolution of the DS, not the placement of models.

I started reading this with the belief a unit could DS wherever it pleased, there just was never a good reason to try to DS into a 'mishap' in general. After reading most of the arguments I believe Paidinfull has it 100% as far as RaW are concerned.

That being said, while I will point this out to my opponent so he is aware of the rule, I have every intention of allowing him to DS his Mawloc into my troops, transports et cetera if he chooses to as per TMIR (which is a rare appropriate application of that particular rule!).

Paidinfull,
You keep quoting the deepstrike rules, but are missing something about the Mawloc. I've put this in the earlier posts, but I think folks are missing it. I'm pulling the deep strike verbage from the rulebook quote you used (don't feel like retyping the whole thing).

Deep strike - you pick a point and place your model there. Scatter - then place the other models in the squad around it, with anyone who is closer than 1" away from an enemy model is treated as a mishap. Got it - no argument.

Mawloc - place a Marker anywhere on the board. Note - marker, not the model. Scatter. Resolve the large blast template at Str 6, AP2 with the center of the large blast template at the scatter point. Anyone in the blast is affected. Anyone who survives is pushed off the template. Anyone who can't be pushed off the template (per impassable terrain or other enemy models) is automatically destroyed. THEN the Mawloc comes in where the marker was.

I see everyones argument about the deepstrike rules and how it could apply to the Mawloc. Deepstriking though requires you to place your model at the point where you want to scatter off of, which would violate the impassable terrain rule if enemy models are there. The Mawloc model though, is not going on that point, which is why they specify the marker, then blast template, then moving enemy models, then placing the Mawloc. If they didn't include the portion with moving enemy units the minimum distance to get them off the blast template, I would agree with your logic.

Additionally, and as much as I hate to say it, the way they played it in the White Dwarf agrees with the argument I presented. I know they don't always get stuff right (reference Warriors of Chaos Eyes of the Gods rule), but in this case it makes sense.

@calypso2ts
Spot on. If you feel the intent is to play it that way please do. This is a social game and exceptions can be made at the table to improve the fun and game play for both players.

@Kirsanth
You're grasping at straws to keep your logic together. Believing that 3x separate instances that explain models don't belong in impassable terrain, now some how are irrelevant because you say so, is preposterous. Models don't belong in impassable terrain it's a simple fundamental rule in the game. The statement where "count as impassable terrain as normal" is referenced also, includes the fact that models are not allowed to be placed in impassable terrain, as when a player Deep Strikes, he treats impassable terrain as the unit normally would treat impassable terrain... meaning you can't be placed in it. You can't target a place you can't legal land, all of the rules are pointing to this conclusion.
Impassable terrain is just that, a place where your models cannot be placed.
Models cannot be placed or move or go or pass, into Impassable terrain unless they have a rule that specifically allows them to. The Deep Strike rules are not an exception to this, as there are instances in the rules for resolving Deep Strike that continue to support "Hey, it's impassable terrain... You don't belong there!"

It's gotten to the point where the RAW clearly doesn't support your claims and it's ridiculous for you to think that any model may be placed on top of other models, when that is made clear on p13 and p14 that they can't do that unless they have some rule that permits it. You've provided no quotes that support this exception, you haven't quoted the rules for the Mawloc which would be the only place that would permit such an action, and you have continued to contradict yourself.

Nothing supports your stance that you can place the Mawloc on top of other models for resolving a normal Deep Strike move.



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Mattbranb wrote:Mawloc - place a Marker anywhere on the board. Note - marker, not the model. Scatter. Resolve the large blast template at Str 6, AP2 with the center of the large blast template at the scatter point. Anyone in the blast is affected. Anyone who survives is pushed off the template. Anyone who can't be pushed off the template (per impassable terrain or other enemy models) is automatically destroyed. THEN the Mawloc comes in where the marker was.

I see everyones argument about the deepstrike rules and how it could apply to the Mawloc. Deepstriking though requires you to place your model at the point where you want to scatter off of, which would violate the impassable terrain rule if enemy models are there. The Mawloc model though, is not going on that point, which is why they specify the marker, then blast template, then moving enemy models, then placing the Mawloc. If they didn't include the portion with moving enemy units the minimum distance to get them off the blast template, I would agree with your logic.

Additionally, and as much as I hate to say it, the way they played it in the White Dwarf agrees with the argument I presented. I know they don't always get stuff right (reference Warriors of Chaos Eyes of the Gods rule), but in this case it makes sense.

Could you PLEASE PLEASE provide the quote? Man that's all I've been asking for. If it does specifically state that it follows a different Deep Strike process that is 100% fine. The logic that has been provided was that any model can start a Deep Strike move on top of another model which is totally wrong.

If you are indeed, placing a template first, rolling for scatter, then doing the subterranean assault moves, etc. THEN placing the Mawloc that of course would ignore everything I have said.

I think those arguing that the mawloc can initiate a DS in a unit are missing the meaning of the word "place".

According to Merriam-Webster online, to place is "to arrange something in a certain spot or position"; I don't know about you all but the average person does not have the fine motor control necessary to arrange something in a certain spot while still holding it (as your hand will move a bit).

Now let's discuss what "on the table" means because some of you are convinced that if the mawloc shares any place near the table that this verbage is satisfied. The same dictionary defines the preposition on to mean "in or into contact with".

Now, my point. If someone I'm playing were to be such an utter tool that they would try to exploit the vague nature of GW rules to such an obviously erroneous extent, I would be inclined to reciprocate by being a tool as well and demand that they satisfy that the model is "placed" meaning it will have to stand of its own accord in the place where the player wishes it to be AND it must be in contact with the table. If he/she can manage this miracle, they can proceed.

paidinfull wrote:I would contend that Deep Striking constitutes as a "move" in the movement phase, as per the wording "move any further", so a Deep Striking unit cannot be placed within 1" of an enemy. Placing the first model on the table on top of another model or base would also not be placing the model on the table.

There is a small problem with this. If deep striking is normal movement, then a mishap can never occur. Everything would behave like a drop pod.

Homer

Agnosto, by your definition of "Place", you can never place anything on the table unless you are using a completely flat, bare, unpainted table.

Gwar! wrote:Agnosto, by your definition of "Place", you can never place anything on the table unless you are using a completely flat, bare, unpainted table.

How so? The tables I play on have terrain added before the battle so they start flat; obviously if it's too steep for my models to stand on, in the game mechanics it would be too steep for them to climb thus the terrain rules for difficult/dangerous/impassable. If it can't stand on its own, it's obviously being affected by one of the different terrain types which means that of these, two of them preclude DS'ing.

I'm willing to even forego the obvious stupidity of this ability moving a vehicle.
"Gee your tiny Mawloc came up under my Titan and moved him an inch."

agnosto wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Agnosto, by your definition of "Place", you can never place anything on the table unless you are using a completely flat, bare, unpainted table.

How so?

Placing models onto a terrain piece not placing them on the table.

Placing them onto paint that is on a table is not the same as putting them on the table.

Gwar! wrote:

agnosto wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Agnosto, by your definition of "Place", you can never place anything on the table unless you are using a completely flat, bare, unpainted table.

How so?

Placing models onto a terrain piece not placing them on the table.

Placing them onto paint that is on a table is not the same as putting them on the table.

Actually the tables I play on are covered in model grass (whatever that green sand is). What, do you stand there and hold your models the whole game because they can't stay on a hill? Seriously, you're just being obtuse.

Actually, he is using an argument to discredit itself.

InquisitorFabius wrote:Actually, he is using an argument to discredit itself.

That usually happens when people continue an argument just to be argumentative.

It comes down to how you define the "table"

Is it the supporting structure?
Is the it the supporting structure PLUS the actual playing surface (e.g. citadel gaming boards)
Is it the playing surface plus any appropriate terrain?

Homer S wrote:

paidinfull wrote:I would contend that Deep Striking constitutes as a "move" in the movement phase, as per the wording "move any further", so a Deep Striking unit cannot be placed within 1" of an enemy. Placing the first model on the table on top of another model or base would also not be placing the model on the table.

There is a small problem with this. If deep striking is normal movement, then a mishap can never occur. Everything would behave like a drop pod.

Homer

Deep Striking is Deep Striking, so it's not "normal" movement per say, but it's definitely movement as I pointed out, and I'm sure most would agree with me.
Though how that relates to the Mawloc rules is completely separate.

At this point I have been requesting over and over again a quote of the Mawloc rules.
Right now, my point is that players claiming that you can place a model on top of another model when you begin your Deep Strike move clearly violates RAW.
If there is a separate sequence... IE you place the blast marker separately and resolve those effects first, then move the remaining enemy models then place the Mawloc, it is more than clear my objections were unwarranted.
If, however, it follows the normal Deep Strike rules, you first place the Mawloc model on the table, then if it scatters onto enemy models roll follow Subterranean Assault, then you absolutely, 100%, can not place the Mawloc on top of enemy models by RAW.

@nosferatu
It actually does not come down to how you define table. If a Mawloc either follows a different sequence for Deep Strike, as I listed above, or if he is permitted to be placed on top of enemy models or in impassable terrain, then my argument is irrelevant.

Wow guys, arguing about weather terrain features on the board count as being on the board is rather ridiculous. The terrain features become part of the board, as does any paint/flock etc. No one is going to ague about this IRL (I have some hope left in humanity), so lets not waste time and detract from the thread.

The pertinent information is that you may not place a model in/on impassible terrain, which is what enemy models are. DS allows you to place a model anywhere on the board, but it does not state this is an exemption to Impassible terrain. Therefore impassible terrain is still off limits unless you have a special rule that exempts you from the limit on impassible terrain.

nosferatu1001 wrote:It comes down to how you define the "table"

Is it the supporting structure?
Is the it the supporting structure PLUS the actual playing surface (e.g. citadel gaming boards)
Is it the playing surface plus any appropriate terrain?

I just got off the phone with Jervis. Couldn't really understand much, but from what I gathered, on a 4+ we have to grab some holy promethium and scourge the tabletop.

What happens when a model Deepstrikes onto terrain?
Oh, wait. They have a whole . . . table for that.

And it describes what "normally" happens.

The paragraph before let you know this.

Try to stay on topic please
And provide something substantial... I dunno... like a quote that says the Mawloc can either be placed in impassable terrain, on enemy models or follows a different Deep Strike process than normal.

paidinfull wrote:Try to stay on topic please
And provide something substantial... I dunno... like a quote that says the Mawloc can either be placed in impassable terrain, on enemy models or follows a different Deep Strike process than normal.

Why would it need to follow a different deep strike process?

The normal one lets you go right onto the enemy anyway.