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Nosferatu is right - people who think they are just going to stand back and shoot with devastator squads and stuff like that - beware the Mawloc!

Seriously though it's GW and you know when they come out with a nice new expensive model, they're going to come up with great rules for it. Its just the people who want to find loopholes (i.e. autodestroying landraiders and the crew inside) that abuse it.

Mattbranb wrote: Its just the people who want to find loopholes (i.e. autodestroying landraiders and the crew inside) that abuse it.

This is like claiming that people who put scoring troops in a landraider and park it on an objective are using a loophole to claim the troops are scoring.

Not sure this ability would affect vehicles as nothing else pushes a vehicle, not even other vehicles.

Grabbin' Klaw or A Word in Your Ear.

+ others

I stand corrected. Does the lash of submission move vehicles?

No, that specifies "non-vehicle".

CKO wrote:Is the Mawloc allowed to place its original deep strike position on top of units to take advantage of its ability?

In the white dwarf it says that a mawloc arrived directly below a terminator unit and killed 2 of them.

The real kicker: You can scatter into your own units and do the same damage to your own units. Or so it seems from the wording.

The real question:
What if you scatter into an assault?

agnosto wrote:Not sure this ability would affect vehicles as nothing else pushes a vehicle, not even other vehicles.

I can't remember, but doesn't the Monolith's special rules as pertains to deep striking move enemy models out of the way if it would otherwise land on them?

agnosto wrote:I stand corrected. Does the lash of submission move vehicles?

Pavane of Slaanesh can move walkers (Since "they can dance")

It is not a shooting attack, therefore nothing is wrong with scattering into an assault

work out which models are hit from each side, roll saves etc and push them away. They would have to maintain coherency but i can see them potentially being pushed out of combat, depending on terrain

CKO wrote:Is the Mawloc allowed to place its original deep strike position on top of units to take advantage of its ability?

In the white dwarf it says that a mawloc arrived directly below a terminator unit and killed 2 of them.

yes thats kind of the point.


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Che-Vito wrote:

CKO wrote:Is the Mawloc allowed to place its original deep strike position on top of units to take advantage of its ability?

In the white dwarf it says that a mawloc arrived directly below a terminator unit and killed 2 of them.

The real kicker: You can scatter into your own units and do the same damage to your own units. Or so it seems from the wording.

The real question:
What if you scatter into an assault?

no the real question is:

can i abuse this rule to break combat for my units of 'going to die guants'

I believe the Mawloc has rules regarding units in Combat, and tells you to place as many back in BtB as possible.

Yes his blast affects vehicles (Str 6 on the back armor - no MC bonuses though to it) and vehicles are pushed to at least 1" away from it. They maintain the same orientation though (not spinning it around or something weird like that). Note - vehicles only have to be touched to take the full Str 6 - no partials or anythign like that for half strength.

Yes it affects units in CC - same as if a blast weapon scattered into combat. Models are still moved but must try to maintain coherency. This prevents it from popping up and being in BTB contact with a unit (and then be able to assault).

I’m astounded at how much more reasoned this discussion went here at Dakka Dakka as opposed to Warseer.

I think there are some people over at Warseer who fantasize that they’re lawyers destined to thread the needle through cherry-picked rules resulting in a game-breaking epiphany.

is there anyone out there who really believes a Mawlock can not deep strike on top of your opponents units?

It's cheesy but I don't doubt it's true.

BRB p95 wrote:First place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position you like the unit to arrive, and roll the scatter dice.

BRB p3 wrote:A model is considered to occupy the area of its base

BRB p11 wrote:To keep this distinction clear, a model may not move within 1" of an enemy model unless assaulting.

BRB p95 wrote:In the movement phase when they arrive, these units may not move any further, other than to disembark from a deep striking transport vehicle.

From what I know of the Bug book its wording is to the extent of:
If the Mawloc Deep Strikes into an enemy model do not roll on the mishap table... do yadda yadda yadda.

I would contend that Deep Striking constitutes as a "move" in the movement phase, as per the wording "move any further", so a Deep Striking unit cannot be placed within 1" of an enemy. Placing the first model on the table on top of another model or base would also not be placing the model on the table.

I think the intent is to place the Mawloc close so that you have the opportunity to scatter and create the effect but not specifically target as you are "burrowing underground" with only a general idea of where things are.

I'm also of the opinion that by RAW you couldn't place the first model on top of another model in order to start the Deep Strike move.

Unless the Mawloc rule for Subterranean Assault specifically permits the model to be placed ON TOP of other models then it won't work to start the Deep Striking process.

paidinfull wrote:

BRB p95 wrote:First place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position you would like the unit to arrive, and roll the scatter dice.

So the unit has not arrived yet?

i agree that unless the rule says you may place the template centered on a model you cannot pick a model, however you can pick the center of the template to be in base to base with a model since at no point in time would the mawloc move within 1" of the model due to the fact its movement comes from below the table, and by the time the mawloc would be placed in base to base RAW the models are moved to the edge of the template and what was within 1" is no longer within 1" so it ends its move not within 1" of an enemy model and at no point of its move was within 1".

I considered that thought.
"It's not arrived yet so it can be placed anywhere" per Deep Strike.

That's in part why I included the other relevant quotes.

Do you feel that placing a model on top of another model to be the same as placing it on the table?

To clarify I originally thought the intent might be to target a unit, sort of like a Grenade Pack. I do feel that the RAW says other wise per those quotes.



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blaktoof wrote:i agree that unless the rule says you may place the template centered on a model you cannot pick a model, however you can pick the center of the template to be in base to base with a model since at no point in time would the mawloc move within 1" of the model due to the fact its movement comes from below the table, and by the time the mawloc would be placed in base to base RAW the models are moved to the edge of the template and what was within 1" is no longer within 1" so it ends its move not within 1" of an enemy model and at no point of its move was within 1".

When you Deep Strike you are placing a Model, not a template... a valid point none the less.

Deepstrike is movement -- few contend otherwise. Until the DS is resolved, the models are placed only to figure where the movement will occur.

Placement of the model on top of something that is on top of the table should satisfy the issue or area terrain would be disallowed; as could ruins, rubble, rivers, difficult/dangerous/impassible terrain or oh, say . . . paint.

kirsanth wrote:Placement of the model on top of something that is on top of the table should satisfy the issue or area terrain would be disallowed; as could ruins, rubble, rivers, difficult/dangerous/impassible terrain or oh, say . . . paint.

That's a pretty big stretch to say that there is a similar comparison between a piece of Terrain and an opponent's model, hence why I posted

BRB p3 wrote:A model is considered to occupy the area of its base

I don't pretend to know the intent behind the rule, as it's not out yet, but prior to this I wouldn't have let an opponent place a model on top of my own and claim it as "on the table". Your logic would also permit a player to deploy one model on top of another... say a marine standing on a rhino. "why he's on the table?" a player could claim.

The rule for Deep Striking says a model must be placed on the table. In game play for ease of play we don't always do this, we use a template or a die, but RAW specifically states

BRB p95 wrote:First place one model from the unit anywhere on the table

If you do not place the model on the table then you are technically not following RAW.

Now Kirsanth, do you normally deploy or place models on top of other models and say that they are on the table?

Ok go back and read what I posted about this in this thread. It doesn't matter how you argue it it is going to happen. The codex special rule over rides the rule book.


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Also yes it effects vehicles.


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Che-Vito wrote:

CKO wrote:Is the Mawloc allowed to place its original deep strike position on top of units to take advantage of its ability?

In the white dwarf it says that a mawloc arrived directly below a terminator unit and killed 2 of them.

The real kicker: You can scatter into your own units and do the same damage to your own units. Or so it seems from the wording.

The real question:
What if you scatter into an assault?

The assualt is hit but don't move I think. I know they are hit though.

Models are treated as impassable terrain. Page 13.
And (see page 14) Mawlocs have permission to DS onto them.

I know that if any of your models hit friendlies/enemies, impassible terrain. you roll in the mishap table.
Simple as that, sure as sure.

TheJuan wrote:Ok go back and read what I posted about this in this thread. It doesn't matter how you argue it it is going to happen. The codex special rule over rides the rule book.


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Also yes it effects vehicles.

Did you quote a rule somewhere? I didn't see it.

I have seen the rules so I know what his ability does, just not if it permits the declaration of starting a Deep Strike on top of a model.

The point of contention isn't that if the Mawloc scatters onto a unit what happens it's... Can you legally declare placing the Mawloc on top of another model.

To be clear... Is placing the Mawloc on top of another model "placing a model on the table"?
It can easily be argued that placing a model on top of another model isn't placing it on the table... it's placing it on another model.



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kirsanth wrote:Models are treated as impassable terrain. Page 13.
And (see page 14) Mawlocs have permission to DS onto them.

Do you have a quote of the Mawloc rules? Otherwise your points are completely irrelevant.

BRB p13 wrote: Impassable Terrain says Models may not be placed in Impassable Terrain unless the models concerned have a special rule in their profile granting them an exception.

All I saw when I read the rules was, if the Mawloc scatters onto enemy models do this. Nothing about placing the model on the table. Something to consider is that the ability occurs AFTER the scatter is rolled. You still haven't addressed the act of starting the Deep Strike. Does the Special Subterranean Assault Rule allow the Mawloc to start it's Deep Strike move by being placed on top of other models? It's not a complicated question... I'm all for letting it do that if the RAW says so.

The interesting piece is that this makes the Mawloc an effective unit to break-into assaults. (Yes, there are other units that can fire into assault, but the Mawloc's blast can be quite an effective Blast attack, that can purposefully directed into assaults.)

There is the risk of hitting your own units, naturally...more dead bugs ftw.

paidinfull wrote:Do you have a quote of the Mawloc rules? Otherwise your points are completely irrelevant.

In fairness, the same can be said for you. In short, yes, they can DS onto a unit on purpose. Any ambiguity is covered by pages 13,14, and 95 of the main rules.

paidinfull wrote:

TheJuan wrote:Ok go back and read what I posted about this in this thread. It doesn't matter how you argue it it is going to happen. The codex special rule over rides the rule book.


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Also yes it effects vehicles.

Did you quote a rule somewhere? I didn't see it.

I have seen the rules so I know what his ability does, just not if it permits the declaration of starting a Deep Strike on top of a model.

The point of contention isn't that if the Mawloc scatters onto a unit what happens it's... Can you legally declare placing the Mawloc on top of another model.

To be clear... Is placing the Mawloc on top of another model "placing a model on the table"?
It can easily be argued that placing a model on top of another model isn't placing it on the table... it's placing it on another model.












































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kirsanth wrote:Models are treated as impassable terrain. Page 13.
And (see page 14) Mawlocs have permission to DS onto them.

Do you have a quote of the Mawloc rules? Otherwise your points are completely irrelevant.

BRB p13 wrote: Impassable Terrain says Models may not be placed in Impassable Terrain unless the models concerned have a special rule in their profile granting them an exception.

All I saw when I read the rules was, if the Mawloc scatters onto enemy models do this. Nothing about placing the model on the table. Something to consider is that the ability occurs AFTER the scatter is rolled. You still haven't addressed the act of starting the Deep Strike. Does the Special Subterranean Assault Rule allow the Mawloc to start it's Deep Strike move by being placed on top of other models? It's not a complicated question... I'm all for letting it do that if the RAW says so.

You didn't read them well then. You simply place the template roll for deviation if no lictor is within 6 inches roll to wound for everything under template enemy stuff moves the minimum needed to clear template if they can't they are destoied.

THEN after all that you place the mawloc model.

Dear @theJuan
a "quote" and you paraphrasing are two different things.
You do understand that right?

The copy I have seen makes no reference that:
A) A Mawloc maybe placed in impassable terrain
B) A Mawloc maybe placed on an enemy model

As @Kirsanth was so clever to point out. You may not legally place one model on top of the other, unless their special rules say so.

The correct steps for Deep Striking a Mawloc as I have read them are...
1) Place the Mawloc on the table where and in the position you would like it to arrive, this may not be over or on top of an enemy model
2) Roll for Scatter
3) If the Mawloc scatters onto enemy models do not roll on the mishap table, instead follow rules for Subterranean Assault

You keep referring to placing a template which only happens in the event the Mawloc scatters on to enemy troops. You do not use a template in 5th edition for normal Deep Strike rules, you place a model in the unit on the table not the Large Blast Template.

If the Mawloc rules do not
- Allow the model to be placed in impassable terrain
- Allow the model to be placed on top of an enemy model
- Follow a different deep strike process, IE you are placing a template first instead of a model

You can not legally target a unit to be hit by his Subterranean attack unless a scatter is rolled and the scatter result takes it on to enemy troops.

Your comments are meaningless at this time unless you are able to provide an actual quote from the Tyranid codex that allows one of the 3 things I've listed above. You continuing to say "this is what I say" is not part of the tenents of YMTC.

Back up your statement with a quote from the Codex that proves otherwise and I will happily admit I am wrong.

I think paidinfull has very clearly laid out the RaW for this.

The Mawloc's special rules come into play not when you begin its deepstrike, but when it mishaps on an enemy model.

Models can only be placed on impassable terrain if they have a special rule allowing it. The mawloc does not have this. All it has is rules for handling a mishap if it actually occurs.

The only potential counter point to this is on page 95 where it says "place the model anywhere on the board". The key word I guess is anywhere. However this rule is in contradiction to the rule on page 14 which states models may not be place in impassable terrain unless they have a special rule for it (which the mawloc doesn't).