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After the degeneration of my Student Stupidity thread, I figured I start this one up.

At my school you get in worse trouble for defending yourself when attacked (one day internal suspension, five days external. or any combo thereof.)
While the attacker gets one day internal, two days external(once again, combo thereof.)

I think its a load of bs. Rather then be allowed to defend oneself, you are allowed to hold you hands in front of you, and ask
"Please stop hitting me."

The school has cameras, but only uses them to make sure people aren't roaming the halls. They only use them in fight instances when a parent comes
to the school and demands to see them shown.

Discuss your thoughts, but you better not flame or spam here.

I feel for ya scout.

I got branded racist for speaking out against having a "Aboriginal Only" room for the school. It's fething stupid, now I have no prejudice for them other then the fact I'm sick of all of our resources being handed to them on a silver platter.

Oh did I mention this room would pretty much screw the special need's students over as the room they want to use is their quiet work space.

*edit* Your school has cameras?! O.o

The thread was meantto discuss the zero tolerance stance on bullying and fighting back,
not to bitch about your schools problems.

That belongs in the "What's on your mind?" thread.

However, why not just bitch and moan now that we're at it? Seems as good an idea as any.

As a "Secret Inquisitorial Eldar Xenexecutor" you should know better than to give the man a reason to punish you. Always save retribution for where Big Brother doesn't see you. Violence is crude and obvious. Look for your adversary's real weakness, and strike there...

My school has cameras. but they arent connected to anything. just a deterent. but fighting. i almost got into a fight. the teachers saw it i think. but apparently until a punchs is thrown there not going to do anything.

@scout *shrug*

Could I bitch and moan some more? *Particularity moaning?*

dont worry shadow brand i was called racist for wanting to start a "people of european decent" club but i was called racist even though we will have the same goals as the
Black student union,the latinos unidos and asian pacific islanders which is raising money for the school and community service.

@Garret. That sucks.

Zero tolerance, in schools or in the real world, is always stupid. The whole idea behind is to ignore context and circumstance and apply the letter of the law at it's harshest... it's ridiculous.

garret wrote:dont worry shadow brand i was called racist for wanting to start a "people of european decent" club but i was called racist even though we will have the same goals as the
Black student union,the latinos unidos and asian pacific islanders which is raising money for the school and community service.

What unifying culture do people of Austrian and Spanish descent share?

sebster wrote:Zero tolerance, in schools or in the real world, is always stupid. The whole idea behind is to ignore context and circumstance and apply the letter of the law at it's harshest... it's ridiculous.

garret wrote:dont worry shadow brand i was called racist for wanting to start a "people of european decent" club but i was called racist even though we will have the same goals as the
Black student union,the latinos unidos and asian pacific islanders which is raising money for the school and community service.

What unifying culture do people of Austrian and Spanish descent share?

The fact that we had the same King during the 16th century (Charles V) and then the junior bloodline separated from the Spanish one?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Habsburg

M.

Miguelsan wrote:The fact that we had the same King during the 16th century (Charles V) and then the junior bloodline separated from the Spanish one?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Habsburg

M.

Well played, good sir.

Thanks, it´s that sometimes there are funny coincidences in history that we must exploit in internet debates.

M.

Not sure if this is relevent to your issue GES, but I heard a fantastic defence Stephen Fry [UK actor/comedian/raconteur] used when being accosted at School.

"Don't do that, you're giving me an erection!"

My school also has cameras,lucky for me they weren't there when I got in a major fight,but with the help Creed I outflanked them when they were installed.

notprop wrote:Not sure if this is relevent to your issue GES, but I heard a fantastic defence Stephen Fry [UK actor/comedian/raconteur] used when being accosted at School.

"Don't do that, you're giving me an erection!"

ah QI greatness, back in the day i got detention for being bullied, it was at the time when wrestlemania was sweeping english schools and they had a zero tolerence policy on it

Shadowbrand wrote:@scout *shrug*

Could I bitch and moan some more? *Particularity moaning?*

Sure. Just don't wake up the nieghbors.

When people started shoving and tripping me in school, I flipped out. I'm not very strong, but I'm pretty good at dishing out nutshots.

Golden Eyed Scout wrote:After the degeneration of my Student Stupidity thread, I figured I start this one up.

At my school you get in worse trouble for defending yourself when attacked (one day internal suspension, five days external. or any combo thereof.)
While the attacker gets one day internal, two days external(once again, combo thereof.)

I think its a load of bs. Rather then be allowed to defend oneself, you are allowed to hold you hands in front of you, and ask
"Please stop hitting me."

The school has cameras, but only uses them to make sure people aren't roaming the halls. They only use them in fight instances when a parent comes
to the school and demands to see them shown.

Discuss your thoughts, but you better not flame or spam here.

School sucks but Real Life (TM) is much, much worse. Hide in school while you can boyo.
get a stick, get a nail. Find them aftetr school. Let the pie in the face comedic antics ensue. Fun for the whole family!

Frazzled wrote:

Golden Eyed Scout wrote:After the degeneration of my Student Stupidity thread, I figured I start this one up.

At my school you get in worse trouble for defending yourself when attacked (one day internal suspension, five days external. or any combo thereof.)
While the attacker gets one day internal, two days external(once again, combo thereof.)

I think its a load of bs. Rather then be allowed to defend oneself, you are allowed to hold you hands in front of you, and ask
"Please stop hitting me."

The school has cameras, but only uses them to make sure people aren't roaming the halls. They only use them in fight instances when a parent comes
to the school and demands to see them shown.

Discuss your thoughts, but you better not flame or spam here.

School sucks but Real Life (TM) is much, much worse. Hide in school while you can boyo.
get a stick, get a nail. Find them aftetr school. Let the pie in the face comedic antics ensue. Fun for the whole family!

agreed with frazzled, at least in school you don't have to worry about a women saying you looked at them funny when you don't even know who they are. I miss being a teenager, although it seems things have changed a lot since them... and it has only been 10 years!!!!

sebster wrote:Zero tolerance, in schools or in the real world, is always stupid. The whole idea behind is to ignore context and circumstance and apply the letter of the law at it's harshest... it's ridiculous.

Agreed.

Zero tolerance, zero intelligence, same thing.

Its stupid until you realize its a method to avoid lawsuits.

mmm to many people aer sure happy.

Frazzled wrote:Its stupid until you realize its a method to avoid lawsuits.

Nope, still stupid. It's a lazy way of avoiding a lawsuit that results in punishments that do not fit the crime.

Tyyr wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Its stupid until you realize its a method to avoid lawsuits.

Nope, still stupid. It's a lazy way of avoiding a lawsuit that results in punishments that do not fit the crime.

I didn't say it wasn't stupid. Just a method, and a cheap one. Plus you don't have to deal with anyone. Its easy to say everything is policy to anyone. Hey I am just following procedure to the letter-blame the people who set the procedure parameters up, not us. If they stuck with that they're fine, its when they get some namby pamby going "we take terrosism seriously, and little johnny threatening little suzy with the banana and making pew pew noises is terroristic and we have to [protect little suzie. has an anyone thought about putting Johnny on thorazine?" that it goes into the Twilight Zone realm of sublime stupid.

Frazzled wrote:I didn't say it wasn't stupid. Just a method, and a cheap one.

Conceeded.

Frazzled wrote:Its stupid until you realize its a method to avoid lawsuits.

No, zero tolerance policies are there to prevent school staff from using their judgement, which demonstrates poor judgement in and of itself. And we trust our kids to these people?

Because I tell you, if I had a kid, and he got suspended for fighting, and there was a videotape of it, and the other kid swung first, and the other kid was getting off with a lighter punishment I would sure as hell sue the school, the district, and the jerk who wrote the policy.

I know I probably wouldn't win...

My Son (who is 8), has my permision to defend himself,he was being bullied last year and "didn't want to get in trouble with his teacher" for fighting back.
After a long talk with him,and a brief one with his school principle,the sitiuation was "resolved" (bully with a bloody nose),now,I've explained to him that if he can avoid confrontation to do so,however,if put in a posistion where he feels threatend,he is definatly encouraged to defend himself...zero tolerance be damned.

Why would you sue? Is suing a reasonable first port of call in this situation?
I'd go in and complain and join the parent council and try to change the dumbassed policy.

One of the reasons that teachers use zero tolerance type stuff is to speed up the discipline issues. We really don't want to have to deal with the stupid, aggressive and violent behaviour. We want to teach and get on with things. When you spend all your friggin time dealing with figuring out who did what to who and who is in the wrong, you tend not to get anything done, or worse, miss your tea break . So unless it's clear EXACTLY what was going on with no argument, I'll often give the same punishment to two people involved in any misbehaviour regardless of protest- face it, students lie all the time to teachers, and finding out the exact truth of every situation is not our job. If someone hits someone else on camera, fine, but then the other person hits back, well, we don't know what the full story is. Perhaps the student who attacked was being provoked, maybe even over a long time? I will say, give them both the same punishment, as otherwise you're breeding resentment.
Also, do ASK what happened, and keep an eye on things to make sure there's not a continuing animosity, or an actual bullying campaign going on. Two kids boxing each other is a fight, it happens again, then you start to suspect either animosity or bullying.

I of course wish we had the time and resources to pursue absolutely everything that goes on, but we don't. We've got bollock loads of students to teach and discipline is something that has to be enforced quickly and efficiently or you lose control of situations very fast- after all, it's not like we can actually FORCE students to do anything, really. They've got all the power, should they actually realise it. Especially if their parents don't care or are anti-school.

Well, at our school if you get into a full-blown fight both are punished equally. (If you gave as good as you got that is). Personally, I think that's fair. If you know what the consequences are, and you still get into that situation, then you shouldn't shirk from the punishment.

Good man, I like to hear that sort of sentiment.
Also, if you think someone is going to attack you at all, just tell a teacher and they can hover in the nearby area with their tea or whatever, and keep an eye. Then you have seen it yourself from beginning to end, and realistically, it probably won't kick off while you're there unless the kid in question is a nutjob.