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hi there

lot's of threads were posted about the nids in the last few weeks and many people have read the dex by now.

I don't want to bring up all the complaints here that were posted over and over again, but my local community has made a decision and i want you to tell me what you think about it and discuss it.

The army seems playable and competitive, even if it is not as strong as other 5ed dexes, but the new dex itself seems to be the worst dex i have ever read.
You get the impression that Cruddace never actually played Tyranids and had to write a dex for an army that he did not really know...
There are lot's of errors and oddities in the dex and unofficial FAQs already have about 5 pages and the dex is still not freely avialible.
And people who tested the new dex for the past few weeks (including myself) state that it is more like a new army than a new dex for tyranids.
Some people were saying they are gonna keep on using the old dex.

Reading different forums and discussing with my local WH40K community, i got the impression that there are people who want to play nids and they keep the old dex, and people who want to start a new army and want to use the new dex. I found the new dex being called the "Freak Bug Codex" while the old dex is the "Tyranid codex".

I for myself played Tyranids as my first and alltime favourite army and the new dex IMO really looks like a new army, the freak bugs.

I don't want to play a new army, but my beloved nids (by the way: i never used nidzilla; i played fluffy lists with a tyrant, one fex and at larger points a second one, biovores with acid mines and lictors and my lists worked well; but as freakbugs the units don't work anymore and many tests have shown that i would indeed have to start a new army).

What do you think about it? Would you play against someone that refuse to play freakbugs and want to use the old dex? And i don't mean Nidzilla lists! Using this argument to keep on using nidzilla would be really beardy.

And if you don't like the wording freakbugs, than call them oldschoold nids and neonids or whatever; just would you play against balanced old dex armies even if the new dex is out for sale or would you say the old nids are dead and neonids are the only allowed way to go?

And of course i am not talking about tournaments (even if you are lucky and your FLGS treats them as different armies, GW stores would never do that), it's all about friendly games.

Let me hear your comments^^

I think the same could be said for the IG codex and Ork Codex. Army builds that were legit under previous versions are now obsolete.

It's part of the appeal and business model of GW to get you to buy new models for an army you already own.

Yes, however, I do feel like it is a new army or Freak Bugs.
For the record, I don't play bugs nor probably ever will but I happen to love a lot of the new units and rules out there.

Parasite's rules to have rippers be like Chest Bursters from Aliens? Awesome
Tervigon spawning new units... excellent.
Deathleaper reducing LD and his other rules, too much like DoW2

There are a lot of new rules that I felt really make the Codex shine, and think that if Eternal Warrior was still a part of this list it could crush every book hands down.

Hmm, neo-nids...I like it:

Unprovoked acts of aggression --> They just eat you
No respect for civil rights or due process --> They just eat you
Blind adherence to group think --> The Hive Mind
Ruthless pursuit of it's goals --> Again, they just eat you!!

yeah, neo-nids FTW

All kidding aside, I prefer playing using the latest and greatest. It's easier for me to keep track of what's on the board and what I should expect from game to game. Playing against multiple codecies from different versions would lead to confusion not much fun in the long term.

-Yad

moving to discussions

shadowtyrant wrote:I don't want to play a new army, but my beloved nids (by the way: i never used nidzilla; i played fluffy lists with a tyrant, one fex and at larger points a second one, biovores with acid mines and lictors and my lists worked well; but as freakbugs the units don't work anymore and many tests have shown that i would indeed have to start a new army).

I imagine your old army list playing almost exactly the same with the new dex (not a nid player but play them all the time and have read the new dex). How would it not work anymore? If anything you could just add some spore pods to get synergy with the fex and the lictors.

I would certainly be alright with playing against old codex Nids, but I'm curious why you are fighting the new codex with that army list. It seems like you would be robbing yourself and your opponent out of a chance to play something fresh.

o.O

Are you even allowed to bring old codexes? *ponders*

shadowtyrant wrote:And people who tested the new dex for the past few weeks (including myself) state that it is more like a new army than a new dex for tyranids.

Of course it is, the old Tyranid Codex was one of the worst Codices in 40k. They badly needed a major revamp.

Dashofpepper wrote:o.O

Are you even allowed to bring old codexes? *ponders*

Why not? So what if squats are no longer supported... no reason you couldn't dig out the 'dex and lay them anyways....




Might not be so effective, but, hey, you can do most anything with an opponent willing to let you run an old codex for kicks. Just don't exect a tourney to allow it.

Squats never had a codex.

Tyranids are as they Should be, Hordes of little bugs supported by a lesser number of big bugs. Nidzilla was the true Freak Bug Book.

Dashofpepper wrote:Are you even allowed to bring old codexes? *ponders*

You wouldn't be able to for most tournaments, since they generally require the current book.

For friendly games, though, you can use whatever you and your opponent agree to use. Most people won't have a problem with you not having updated to the newest codex straight away.

I still play with the third edition dark angel codex. I for one would not mind playing the old tyranid codex at all, even a nidzilla list. Ratling snipers with bring it down have a tendency to kill monstrous creatures in a single round of shooting

Aduro wrote:Tyranids are as they Should be, Hordes of little bugs supported by a lesser number of big bugs. Nidzilla was the true Freak Bug Book.

QFT

As far as the rules go, I think Tyranids are perfect in this new book, they're exactly what they're suppose to be. Hordes of expendable troops that pump out so much lesser firepower that you can't stop them. Nids were never suppose to be a small number of elite MC's it was always meant to be a horde army. That codex has succeeded in doing so.

As far as fluff, while he has changed a few things, that's nothing new when it comes to the Tyranids. Tyranids used to be space dinosaurs that used your body parts for weapons (not your biomass, your unchanged bodies). This wasn't grimdark enough for the increasingly grimdark 40k universe, so what did they do? They made them more akin to intergalactic locusts than biological Orks (things that basically looted bodies in the same way orks loot technology). The last Codex, fluff wise anyways, was crap. I'm sorry, but I don't think Phill Kelly can write fluff for his life. While the same meat of the Tyranid race was there, it lacked the kind of details that really makes fluff interesting. I think that the overview of the different Hive Fleets, and their incursions in the 40k universe is very interesting and a much needed update for some of the murky, rather flat detail of the fluff in the last codex, which was essentially. "They go to a planet, eat it and move on. Then they went to Macragge and died. Then another fleet came. It was different. Then it died too. Then a third came and it's still doing stuff in the galaxy." This codex actually details what each Hive Fleet did, why it was different from the others, what impact it had on the galaxy, and what caused its downfall, very nice if I do say so myself. I also like that he added Special Characters. Now there are those that do not understand Tyranids that say "oh but Tyranids can't have special characters because they aren't sentient". First of all, that's wrong. All Tyranids are sentient (while only some are sapient). The Hive Mind is capable of reabsorbing the consiousness of particular Tyranids. They can then use it to create almost carbon copies of that Tyranid, giving it the same memory, tactical experiences, characteristics, and looks of its previous incarnation. This is essentially what the Swarm Lord is. It's an incredibly efficient Tyrant whose mindset is so deadly, that the Hive Mind has recycled it over and over and over. Character such as the Doom of Malan'Tai and Old One Eye are Tyranids that could very well still be alive and never had the benefit of being absorbed as biomass, so they make perfect sense fluff wise too.

Overall, this codex, both rules-wise and fluff-wise makes perfect sense, and is a great improvement. Another thing you'll notice is that half of the FAQ's you're seeing are people asking questions that are basically "Can (insert unit here) do (insert ability here) like it did in the previous codex?" In which case, that would be the reader's fault, not the writer.

People said the new IG codex was junk, now there is a flood of new IG players and older players are still enjoying the codex. Cuddace seems to have something against fluff making it to the table, and a pension for going off the handles, but there are some new and interesting things that a lot of people are enjoying.

I havnt fully read the nids dex yet, but from what Ive read, I agree its what the Nids should have been. HORDES!
Not a couple really big super nasty bugs that can take 10x the ass kicking, and only a couple gaunts here and there. It should be how its written now. Hordes of bugs everywhere, and some big basterds to bring the pain

This thread made me even more interested in seeing it.

Glad I have a Tyranid army painted already!

I haven't seen the new Tyranid codex yet, only read some of the previews, but as an Ork player whose army changed RADICALLY, all I can say is that they have to deal and move on. I feel bad if they have tons of useless models, but hey, lots of folks had cyborks, old flash gitz, looted tanks, etc. that now don't exist or are nerfed to uselessness. It happens with virtually every codex. In return, you now have tons of great new options to explore.

Personally, once the new book hits the shelf, that's what you have to use, like it or not. In a friendly or nostalgic game, sure, why not bring out the old stuff, but forget about it in any tournament or semi-serious situation.

I can't understand how you can call yourself a Nid fan and not like the new Codex. Tons of options, almost every entry is at least playable and most remain competitive. Their are also tons of conversion and modification potential to unreleased models. It also states in the English codex that any Nid entry that doesn't have a model any conversion is acceptable.

Yea I feel sorry for people with 8 dakka fex that will have to rebuild or rebuy, but that's par for the course. Hang onto your Fexes for 6th edition Nids when the pendulum swings back to Nidzilla. Really if you look at it that way, when 6th edition does release and Mech becomes crap Nids will be the top dex!

Linkdead wrote:Hang onto your Fexes for 6th edition Nids in another 10 years when the pendulum swings back to Nidzilla.

Fix'd .


Also, to surmise the big paragraph I typed up there, let me just surmise it.

Last Codex= Tyranids (that aren't fluffy at all)
New Codex= Tyranids (completely fluffy)

Also, a good majority of the people whining about the new codex are likely just pissy because their Carnifex got nerfed. Boohoo you can't play Nidzilla. Hop off the Carnifex's engorged ballsack and take a look at the other fantastic options in the new codex. I'm not going to call them "Freakbugs" or "Neonids" because that's not what they are. They're Tyranids. They are Tyranids in their finest incarnation yet, in my opinion, as this codex exemplifies everything Nids are suppose to be.

P.S. The new codex Nids are not "Old School Nids". These are Old School Nids:

Linkdead wrote:It also states in the English codex that any Nid entry that doesn't have a model any conversion is acceptable.

Could you please tell me wheer you found that? I could not find anything like that in my german dex.

I am german, so i sometimes don't know the right words to say what i really mean. For example the word "issue" on the title was a bad choice.

I never intended to say the codex is crap, or unplayable or not competitive. I recognized that people that oppose nid armies or that want to start on nids like the dex.
Complains seem to just come from veterans. I tried to state what the consense is at my local meta, but i posted here to read more opinions and take a look at the bigger picture.

And the complains i have heard so far are not that nidzilla got nerfed or something. It seems to be meta specific, but at least here there are only few tyranid player and no one of them plays nidzilla or stealershock! The points for a dakkafex are absolutely correct IMO (well, i would have made the base cost somewhat cheaper and the eq more expensive to allow at least some variants to be cheaper and more competitive to the trygon). The complains say that the new nids "feel wrong" and are "not the tyranids anymore". I have never heard such whining before when a new dex was published, so there has to be some true core to this. I can only speak for myself here, but what i think made it a different army is the following:

I am playing nids, Eldar and Chaosdemons since 3rd ed (demons of course since 5th) and i never complained about changes so far. Changes are needed from time to time, but there is always this core element that the army is all about. And for the first time i feel like this was changed drastically.
It was a pity when the nids lost their mutations from 3rd to 4th, but they still were all about mutation with the biomorps used to alter the profile; you could make cool conversions and create "new" models since all the changes altered the stats and the idea of Sx weapons fit in that quite well.
But now there are just static units left in the new dex; you could of course convert the models, but they all have the same profile. Someone mentioned the new nids playing like Eldar. Thats right, but that is what people call "another army". Biomorphs are just plain normal eq. and there are many units that can not even be equipped at all.
There are more things like fluff changes that contradict the old fluff, but that happened to other dexes before; but all the small things sum up and make the codex "feel wrong" to people like me (the mutability was what nids were about for me and there is nothing left from that).
If there would be another race that allows creating/altering the models/stats and make the units that dynamical, i would stop complaining and start the new army, but that was what nids were all about and there is no alternative left for that.

This drastic change in style and the way they play now made me dislike it.

By the way: someone mentioned the chaos space marine were made to be "a whole new army" as well in the past (from 3rd to 4th). That was before i used the internet to see what people think about such things. So i am curios about how the old chaos marines were and what changed them to be "a different army".

If such things happened to other dexes as well, wouldn't it be a nice idea to have some kind of "retro WH40k gaming day" sometimes?

About "Hang onto your Fexes for 6th edition Nids when the pendulum swings back to Nidzilla":
I hope that will not happen. But in fact nidzilla is still a very viable choice with the new dex, with having TMCs in every foc slot now...

About "Last Codex= Tyranids (that aren't fluffy at all)
New Codex= Tyranids (completely fluffy) ":
I must admit that the last dex was not the best one fluffwise, but the new one isn't either. Even if i liked the way the characters (to be exact: the swamlord) was integrated as reincarnation of its mind (sounds like the eldar version of "copy paste" to me, but i like it; thats adaption), there are things i dislike about it. But fluff was never the problem here (wel, maybe a bit, but not that much)

I have to agree with whats alright been written in here in favor of the new codex.

It's simply amazing, I would say 98% of the entries are viable for play and are competitive. Yeah so you can't spam Carnifex's at noisome, there are now some much better MC choices that rock the socks off a Carnifex for different roles. Now don't get me wrong a lumbering carnifex is still going to strike fear, but now you have other choices to create distractions to help get your Carnifex in where you want it. Mawloc/Trygon are great for filling this role and are MC's themselves, say hello to behind enemy lines turn 2 and just wreaking havoc. I mean come on, look past the fact that Nidzilla has changed and embrace the new awesome tactics that most other players aren't going to see the first time they face the new Codex.

Being able to vary the lists and make things different but still effective is going to be a lot of fun and the true seperation of a nid player and a good nid player, no long will there just be 1 build, now you can make it how you want and if you can enact proper strategy with those units, I'm sure you could annihilate other Armys in mere turns and not just contest the objectives/board quarters.

This codex is most definitely bringing it back to the roots of the Tyranids and isn't a shoot off, but a return to how they were meant to be played, imo.

Peace~

I too play nids but just bought the battle force, lictor & zoanthrope before I heard about the new dex & stopped.

GW tends to do this with several armies IMO. They make old builds obsolete so people go out & buy new models.

However GW is a business so sadly that's the way it works. I would have no problem letting someone use the old dex so long as that's the only one they used.

But I doubt a TO would let you do it.

Darth Bob wrote:

Aduro wrote:Tyranids are as they Should be, Hordes of little bugs supported by a lesser number of big bugs. Nidzilla was the true Freak Bug Book.

QFT

As far as the rules go, I think Tyranids are perfect in this new book, they're exactly what they're suppose to be. Hordes of expendable troops that pump out so much lesser firepower that you can't stop them. Nids were never suppose to be a small number of elite MC's it was always meant to be a horde army. That codex has succeeded in doing so.

As far as fluff, while he has changed a few things, that's nothing new when it comes to the Tyranids. Tyranids used to be space dinosaurs that used your body parts for weapons (not your biomass, your unchanged bodies). This wasn't grimdark enough for the increasingly grimdark 40k universe, so what did they do? They made them more akin to intergalactic locusts than biological Orks (things that basically looted bodies in the same way orks loot technology). The last Codex, fluff wise anyways, was crap. I'm sorry, but I don't think Phill Kelly can write fluff for his life. While the same meat of the Tyranid race was there, it lacked the kind of details that really makes fluff interesting. I think that the overview of the different Hive Fleets, and their incursions in the 40k universe is very interesting and a much needed update for some of the murky, rather flat detail of the fluff in the last codex, which was essentially. "They go to a planet, eat it and move on. Then they went to Macragge and died. Then another fleet came. It was different. Then it died too. Then a third came and it's still doing stuff in the galaxy." This codex actually details what each Hive Fleet did, why it was different from the others, what impact it had on the galaxy, and what caused its downfall, very nice if I do say so myself. I also like that he added Special Characters. Now there are those that do not understand Tyranids that say "oh but Tyranids can't have special characters because they aren't sentient". First of all, that's wrong. All Tyranids are sentient (while only some are sapient). The Hive Mind is capable of reabsorbing the consiousness of particular Tyranids. They can then use it to create almost carbon copies of that Tyranid, giving it the same memory, tactical experiences, characteristics, and looks of its previous incarnation. This is essentially what the Swarm Lord is. It's an incredibly efficient Tyrant whose mindset is so deadly, that the Hive Mind has recycled it over and over and over. Character such as the Doom of Malan'Tai and Old One Eye are Tyranids that could very well still be alive and never had the benefit of being absorbed as biomass, so they make perfect sense fluff wise too.

Overall, this codex, both rules-wise and fluff-wise makes perfect sense, and is a great improvement. Another thing you'll notice is that half of the FAQ's you're seeing are people asking questions that are basically "Can (insert unit here) do (insert ability here) like it did in the previous codex?" In which case, that would be the reader's fault, not the writer.

Quoted for insight and agreement. I particularly like the idea about the Tyranids looting the flesh of their adversaries, as it summarizes my own background for them perfectly. Kudos.

As far as I can tell, here are the problems I'm having with the codex:

My lovely flying HT, whom I thought was becoming about 2x as effective, now has a base cost of 230 points with only the ability for a 2+ save.

Lictors for some reason can 'appear' out of mid air in their camo anywhere on the field, but can't assault. (And no longer receive any cover save bonus's)

Almost no creatures with fleet. (Genestealers, Hormagaunts, Trygon, and Ravenors are your only options)

On the other hand:

SPORE PODS!!! (This is the equivalent of a tyranid orgasm. The one game I played, turn 2 5 spore pods in the middle of my enemy! It was the most fun I've had playing 40K in a while!)

Choices. My (hivemind) there are choices! I agree with the above statements that there are going to be many varied builds. I guess the individual units are losing some of their potential diversity, but overall there will be a large variance between effective army choices. The elite section is all so good, I don't know what to do!

This codex is definitely prime to sell more figs, but really who wouldn't want to buy the new stuff? Most of those models are pretty amazing, and add the the ferocity of your army.

I say, stop griping and proxy a few games out! Being able to take it to my enemy turn 2 is something you should try for. (Also, don't forget the Swarmlord, Deathleaper, and Lictors add to your reserves rolls. With the Swarmlord alone you have a 2/3 chance of coming in on turn 2!

Sure, I don't like the fact that my carnifexes got nerfed a little bit, but we got so many new things to try it really doesn't bother me. All my units are still there, at least, they just may not play the same way.

Some of the things I am most excited about:

1. Spore pods- this should have been implemented a while ago, because it is fitting with the fluff. A MC that flails about with tentacles? Maybe a bit much, but I am just happy my critters can deepstrike in pods.

2. Warriors as Troops- this gives you some very tough troops for the points! Sure, they no longer have eternal warrior, but adding an extra wound helps make up for it. For troop on troop action, these should be fairly dependable.

3. Cheaper Gaunts- Now I can take a true swarm! The minimum brood size went up, but who fields 8 gaunts at a time anyway?

4. Conversion options- As stated above, there are plenty of options for converting. For example, I am using a 3rd Edition Hive Tyrant for an Alpha Warrior, and it looks pretty awesome. There are also opportunites to convert a t-fex, a tervigon, harpy, and spore pod. That's not to mentioned winged variants of warriors, hive tyrants, etc etc.

5. A different playstyle than my mech IG- In my mech IG, most of my models on the board are vehicles. Also, my emphasis is on the shooting phase. If assaults get to my units, it usually goes badly. I am glad that this codex has taken my bugs back to where they belong: mid-range to assault.

Did someone ask for a rant about the new Chaos Marine Codex? Well, I'm no HBMC, but I'll give it a shot.

The Chaos Lord has pretty much no options, as there's only one undivided Daemon Weapon and one for each god and he can't get a save higher than 5+ without worshiping Tzeentch (nor can he get Eternal Warrior), the Daemon Prince has even less options and doesn't have the ability to take a Daemon Weapon any more, the Sorcerer has gak powers except for Lash of Submission (making Sorcerers of Tzeentch terrible, despite being the god of magic), and Chaos Lieutenants and the two wound Sorcerers are out of the game completely. Every special character besides Abaddon still sucks, even when they're the highest chosen of the God of War or the God of Magic.

Possessed are hampered by the lack of ability to know what power you're going to get, Chaos Dreadnoughts (which weren't great before) just got worse with the new fire frenzy rules, Chosen went from being what was probably the most customizable unit in the game, with access to veteran skills, mounts, terminator or daemon armor, bikes, almost any sort of weapon in the codex, and spellcasting ability to a special weapon squad with infiltrate (what do the berserkers who have been chosen by the god of blood and rage do? They infiltrate! What about those chosen by the god of magic? Infiltrate! Can they do something else? No!), and Terminators were added a separate unit (not a bad idea).

The Troops were severely altered, because while in the last codex the Marks of Chaos did more, all worshippers of the god just took that mark. Now there are two different tiers of god worship, apparently, so the real worshippers of Nurgle get Feel no Pain and Blight Grenades, while the poseurs just get the Toughness 5. You can tell they're the poseurs, because whenever the guy holding the big Nurgle flag drops it they lose their god's power. Thousand Sons went from bad to just as bad, since they're still hampered by the requirement to pay for an overpriced sorcerer in there squads and pay a ton for their basic troops, who have now been shoehorned into a (not great) MEQ killer (with no weapon options; although I'll admit I don't know if they had them before). Noise Marines are largely unchanged, Plague Marines became a tough as terminators, and Berserkers no longer charge forward at random (which isn't a bad thing, in my opinion).

Raptors lost their daemonic visage ability, so they pretty much became chaos assault marines. Bikes are mostly unchanged. Chaos Spawn were added but they're worthless.

Obliterators were moved to Heavy Support (sensible) and were weakened (sensible) and had their weapon options replaced with all energy weapons (makes as much sense as not). Havocs lost the ability to take sonic weaponry for Slaanesh, as did every vehicle. The defiler lost indirect firing ability, but gained fleet. Vindicators were added to non-Iron Warriors. Predator lascanon sponsons shot up in price. The Land Raider is still bad (it went down in points a little but lost the machine spirit). Lots of vehicle upgrades were removed, especially the god-specific ones.

Daemons were removed, really; there used to be 13 (?) Daemons and now there are 2. The daemons can't take any sort of option, even down to marks.

The Legion rules were abolished, which is where most people really go irritated. The Thousand Sons were bad and are still bad, but lost some interesting Tzeentch wargear. The World Eaters lost their chainaxes and other unique wargear. The Death Guard lost some of theirs, as did the Emperor's Children (especially noise weaponry). The Undivided legions lost a lot more; the Iron Warriors lost their Basilisks, their extra Heavy Support slot, and their Servo Harnesses. The Word Bearers lost their Demagogue ability, their extra Troop slots, and the cursed Crozarius that allowed them to make Dark Apostles. The Night Lords lost their extra Fast Attack slot and their veteran skills. The Alpha Legion lost their Infiltrate ability and the ability to take Chaos Cultists as troops (still bitter about that).

The only legion who didn't lose much was the Black Legion, which is fitting, since they're the only legion that gets half a mention in the book. Instead the fluff is all about the "renegade warbands" who have excellent names like "The Deathshadows", "The Deathmongers" and "The Beasts of Annihilation", and pretty much no real fluff, or any sort of reason to care about them at all. The whole army changes from being an army most likely composed of 10,000 year old veterans, nearly immortal from living in the Warp, who are something to be feared whenever they attack (and are very much The Arch-Enemy), to being a bunch of "I don't wanna clean my room WAAAAAAA" spiky marines with an emo-band name and 13 failed attempts to make the Imperium give a gak about them while the Tyranids and Necrons run around looking ten times as spooky.

Also, the codex destroyed the Lost and the Damned as being a playable army.

Orkeosaurus wrote:Did someone ask for a rant about the new Chaos Marine Codex? Well, I'm no HBMC, but I'll give it a shot.

The Chaos Lord has pretty much no options, as there's only one undivided Daemon Weapon and one for each god and he can't get a save higher than 5+ without worshiping Tzeentch (nor can he get Eternal Warrior), the Daemon Prince has even less options and doesn't have the ability to take a Daemon Weapon any more, the Sorcerer has gak powers except for Lash of Submission (making Sorcerers of Tzeentch terrible, despite being the god of magic), and Chaos Lieutenants and the two wound Sorcerers are out of the game completely. Every special character besides Abaddon still sucks, even when they're the highest chosen of the God of War or the God of Magic.

Possessed are hampered by the lack of ability to know what power you're going to get, Chaos Dreadnoughts (which weren't great before) just got worse with the new fire frenzy rules, Chosen went from being what was probably the most customizable unit in the game, with access to veteran skills, mounts, terminator or daemon armor, bikes, almost any sort of weapon in the codex, and spellcasting ability to a special weapon squad with infiltrate (what do the berserkers who have been chosen by the god of blood and rage do? They infiltrate! What about those chosen by the god of magic? Infiltrate! Can they do something else? No!), and Terminators were added a separate unit (not a bad idea).

The Troops were severely altered, because while in the last codex the Marks of Chaos did more, all worshippers of the god just took that mark. Now there are two different tiers of god worship, apparently, so the real worshippers of Nurgle get Feel no Pain and Blight Grenades, while the poseurs just get the Toughness 5. You can tell they're the poseurs, because whenever the guy holding the big Nurgle flag drops it they lose their god's power. Thousand Sons went from bad to just as bad, since they're still hampered by the requirement to pay for an overpriced sorcerer in there squads and pay a ton for their basic troops, who have now been shoehorned into a (not great) MEQ killer (with no weapon options; although I'll admit I don't know if they had them before). Noise Marines are largely unchanged, Plague Marines became a tough as terminators, and Berserkers no longer charge forward at random (which isn't a bad thing, in my opinion).

Raptors lost their daemonic visage ability, so they pretty much became chaos assault marines. Bikes are mostly unchanged. Chaos Spawn were added but they're worthless.

Obliterators were moved to Heavy Support (sensible) and were weakened (sensible) and had their weapon options replaced with all energy weapons (makes as much sense as not). Havocs lost the ability to take sonic weaponry for Slaanesh, as did every vehicle. The defiler lost indirect firing ability, but gained fleet. Vindicators were added to non-Iron Warriors. Predator lascanon sponsons shot up in price. The Land Raider is still bad (it went down in points a little but lost the machine spirit). Lots of vehicle upgrades were removed, especially the god-specific ones.

Daemons were removed, really; there used to be 13 (?) Daemons and now there are 2. The daemons can't take any sort of option, even down to marks.

The Legion rules were abolished, which is where most people really go irritated. The Thousand Sons were bad and are still bad, but lost some interesting Tzeentch wargear. The World Eaters lost their chainaxes and other unique wargear. The Death Guard lost some of theirs, as did the Emperor's Children (especially noise weaponry). The Undivided legions lost a lot more; the Iron Warriors lost their Basilisks, their extra Heavy Support slot, and their Servo Harnesses. The Word Bearers lost their Demagogue ability, their extra Troop slots, and the cursed Crozarius that allowed them to make Dark Apostles. The Night Lords lost their extra Fast Attack slot and their veteran skills. The Alpha Legion lost their Infiltrate ability and the ability to take Chaos Cultists as troops (still bitter about that).

The only legion who didn't lose much was the Black Legion, which is fitting, since they're the only legion that gets half a mention in the book. Instead the fluff is all about the "renegade warbands" who have excellent names like "The Deathshadows", "The Deathmongers" and "The Beasts of Annihilation", and pretty much no real fluff, or any sort of reason to care about them at all. The whole army changes from being an army most likely composed of 10,000 year old veterans, nearly immortal from living in the Warp, who are something to be feared whenever they attack (and are very much The Arch-Enemy), to being a bunch of "I don't wanna clean my room WAAAAAAA" spiky marines with an emo-band name and 13 failed attempts to make the Imperium give a gak about them while the Tyranids and Necrons run around looking ten times as spooky.

Also, the codex destroyed the Lost and the Damned as being a playable army.

"But Nidzilla got nerfed! *Humph*"
~ 4th Edition Nid Player whining about new Codex.

Yeah, I hear everything you're saying, I hate what they did to us, it's ridiculous. Hell, even the writers think its ridiculous, it's like they wrote it and then once it was on the shelves they picked up the store copy and were like "Uh...gak." One of the CEO's of GW came out at Games Day a couple years ago and genuinely apologized for all the crap in the Chaos book. That's how bad it was. Games Workshop, a company known for caring only about the money they get from us, apologized. Of course, he also said we'd get a new one Soon™, but nope. Three Space Marine books later and still no sign of Chaos to be found for several years.

/sigh

P.S. You forgot to mention just how incredibly awesome our Daemon Prince is! /sarcasm

I was put off too at first by this, but quickly accepted it.
1) The Nids are an adaptive race; far quicker than any other in the 40K universe, and this new generation just shows the genetic diversion after war with Orks (IMO)
2) Look at what we lost...look at what we gained...and then look at what we wanted; i think you'll find it all adds up
3) for 9 months every other person is going to hop on the bandwagon and try them out, and we few can still say this is my 3rd edition of Nids I'm playing through.

I personally am a fan of the new book. Looking at Darth Bob's post I wholeheartedly agree. I used to play nidzilla not through real choice, but because playing any other list meant autolose to a decent general. I'm happy that the fluff got maxed out and that we get to play a real horde army with so many variations of units and upgrades that it feels insane! I'm happy!

I haven't seen the book and won't until it shows up at my FLGS later today. That said I know a few people who have already spent a bit of time pouring over it and based off of their opinions on how the units are designed and fit together, I am absolutely excited about it. I've been looking to start a new army for quite a while now and I think that, if I do like the book, I'll be doing some Tyranids.

Basically it seems to me like people are angry because they boguht Nidzilla style armies for the old codex, and now those kinds of lists don't work very well with the new book. That happens. A lot. Actually with most codexes that don't involve power armor it seems to be the case. Some are easier to adapt than others, but new books tend to mean new ideas and ways to play the armies. Based on what I'm hearing, the new Tyranid book really does a great job of capturing the wild genetic diversity of the race and all the options that diversity creates. Further, it really denotes the idea of a horde of ravenous bugs, big and small (not mostly big and then a couple of small ones because they're required lol) and provides an "alien swarm" type feel to the race. I feel like that was pretty much always the intent with Tyranids (at least from 3rd edition onward, I don't know anything about Tyranids from before then).

I really can't wait to see what kind of stuff is in this new book and to be honest, if it is like what people are telling me it is like, I think it follows the Space Wolves book in being a very solid and well done codex. After some of the nonsense GW has released in the last few years, I hope they're able to find a trend of well made codexes and rulebooks now.