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http://cgi.ebay.com/CHAOS-SPACE-MARINE-TZEENTCH-ARMY_W0QQitemZ140380510642QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item20af5499b2

Things like this REALLY make me laugh...

His army is a "Tzeentch" Army with 1 squad of Thousand Sons and Ahriman (which isnt even Really Ahriman, just a Metal Sorcerer lord...)

As opposed to

Nurgle Plague Marines and Typhus (Nurgle and Tzeentch are RIVALS)

Abbadon the Despoiler - Chaos Undivided

4x Oblits - No particular god

Defilier - Typically a Khornate thing.

5 Raptors

and a Red Daemon prince...

The only thing that makes it even remotely "Tzeentchen" is the "Windows Task-Bar Blue" paint on most of the models (which tbh, makes them look like they had a smurf piss on them...) and his Termie Sorcerer-Lord isn't even in the Blue-Gold Scheme. (He looks like a badguy from a Marvel SNES Side-Scroller)

Now the point isn't to just make fun of this shining example of Ebay-Armies (while in itself, is more then enough fun for a thread) but to instead ask...

Does anyone else have friends/know if people in their areas who play armies that are dramatic fluff contradictions, not because they are trying to cheese out a list or play them with their own custom fluff, but because they clearly have no idea of the fluff and probably didn't even read the full description of the units in the Codex?

I find people like this to be far more hilarious then beardies or 10yos. Especially when they have been playing for a long time (since like 3rd Edition< ).

What's your take on them? (And this listing if nothing else )

(((BTW If this is in the wrong forum, feel free to move it. I wasn't sure where a thread like this would go, thus placing it in "General" 40k. Only other place would probably be General Dakka/Warhammer as I am sure Fantasy players know of people like the above)))

So, unless I'm reading you wrong, your intent with this thread is to complain about people who build tough armies that don't stay true to "fluff?"

MagickalMemories wrote:So, unless I'm reading you wrong, your intent with this thread is to complain about people who build tough armies that don't stay true to "fluff?"

Well I don't think its to the fluff is the fact that this guy is selling an army for 400 bucks, that looks like gak, and incorrect on what the actual product he is selling in terms of description. But that's my two cents.

TheTrueProtoman wrote:
Well I don't think its to the fluff is the fact that this guy is selling an army for 400 bucks, that looks like gak, and incorrect on what the actual product he is selling in terms of description. But that's my two cents.

Ah.
I based my answer/question on this statement:

Does anyone else have friends/know if people in their areas who play armies that are dramatic fluff contradictions, not because they are trying to cheese out a list or play them with their own custom fluff, but because they clearly have no idea of the fluff and probably didn't even read the full description of the units in the Codex?

Eric

Meh, his army is blue, which is associated with Tzeentch and has some other choices. As flavorful as the current Chaos dex is. Didn't you know? Chaos gods are all superfriends now!

I know brother, how dare the infidel create a codex-legal army without strictly adhearing to the holy fluff. We should gather our fundamentalist fluffers and launch a holy jihad of smugness against this man.

[ ] Too much?
[ ] Too little?
[ ] Right on?

it looks like he was starting to paint them a flashy blue then maybe add more style to it but decided to say screw it and moved on

Hello dear. Would you like an extra helping of RAGE!?

They're very...blue.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:Defilier - Typically a Khornate thing.

It was mentioned in the old chaos Codex that defilers were created on the demand of abaddon .

MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote: fundamentalist fluffers

Now that is a contradiction lol!

Automatically Appended Next Post:

MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote:I know brother, how dare the infidel create a codex-legal army without strictly adhearing to the holy fluff. We should gather our fundamentalist fluffers and launch a holy jihad of smugness against this man.

[ ] Too much?
[ ] Too little?
[ X] Right on?

So you will not play a person, who wants a consistent theme in his army and have a tough list because of fluff? that bad huh? I'm glad i dont play with people like you.

MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote:
I know brother, how dare the infidel create a codex-legal army without strictly adhearing to the holy fluff. We should gather our fundamentalist fluffers and launch a holy jihad of smugness against this man.
[ ] Too much?
[x ] Too little?
[ ] Right on?

we have been to lax in the persecution of these blasphemous kurd. we must banded to gather a crush this hideous stain upon the most holyles of Holy Fluff. forward bother JIHAAAAD!

*no humor mode on*
What's the point in launching fluff jihad because of one person?
*no humor mode off*

wall that say sarcasm is the lowest form of wit but the heights form of intelligentces.

i personally don't care what you army list has in it for what every reason( just the person must make at lest an effort to paint his army). i will still kick there ass( friendly banter here) any time of the week. but it is nice some time to find someone how has taken time to do some research in to some fluff,or playing some part of some fluff that thay like. it breaths some life on the table.

Upon seeing that listing, all I could think was
"PR0 PAINTED L@@K!!@!!!1!"

GAHHHHHHHH....

What's the point of playing an army that is neither fluffy nor competitive?

To OP , have you ever considered that he might just want to sell ALL of his chaos army?

I mean isnt it possible that he has this Tzeentch army , AND then some left over models aka the none Tzneetch ones?
Do you always use 100% of your existing army? For all we know he might have started his army as Nurgle and realized he dont like them ,
and bought the rest as Thousand Sons

No?

Tzeentch CSM army

MoTz Sorceror Lord
MoTz Daemon Prince w/ Wings
MoTz Chaos Terminator Lord

5 MoTz Terminators in Land Raider
5 MoTz Terminators (unpainted) in Land Raider

9 Thousand Sons w/ Sorcerer
10 MoTz CSM w/ Champ in Rhino
10 MoTz CSM w/ Champ in Rhino

5 MoTz Raptors w/ Champ

4 Obliterators
1 Defiler
1 Vindicator

also includes bonus models:
+ Abaddon
+ Typhus
+ 7 Plague Marines w/ Champ

How's the reshuffle not Fluffy?

LunaHound wrote:To OP , have you ever considered that he might just want to sell ALL of his chaos army?

I mean isnt it possible that he has this Tzeentch army , AND then some left over models aka the none Tzneetch ones?
Do you always use 100% of your existing army? For all we know he might have started his army as Nurgle and realized he dont like them ,
and bought the rest as Thousand Sons

Sorry for the delay, snow killed my interwebs...

First off, I did consider that at first, however the sad fact that he claimed a standard Chaos Sorcerer was Ahriman (and that his "Terminator Lord", which is actually a Termi Sorcerer, was Red and black) leads me to believe it is more misinformation then change of heart...

Secondly @ John

You still run into a few issue with that list.

The DP is a dark red, more khornate then Tzeentchen...

Obliterators and Defiliers also don't fit in too well with a "Pure Tzeentch Themed army"

Tzeentch Raptors and Squads of 5 (raptors and Termies) not to mention then 10 man CSM squads falls a bit out of pure fluff (as 9 is Tzeentch's number and Raptors don't fit too well with most of the Tzeentch fluff anyway.

All that aside however the key point was to more ask "Does anyone else know people who think they know the fluff but in reality their list ends up being more of an "unintentional comedy"...

Dude, you're grasping.

1. dark crimson red is historically Word Bearers, not Khorne.

2. DPs can be of any color they want, and red isn't bad at all for Tzeentch. Quick question for somebody (anybody) who actually knows the Ksons fluff: Who was the Ksons Primarch, and what would a DP based on him look like???

3. If the DP can't be based on the Primarch, as he already has two blue HQs, the DP can be a "bonus model", so it's still a Tz force.

4. the Defiler is blue and matches.

5. Oblits fit in *every* CSM army, and limiting to 0-1 isn't unreasonable.

6. Squad size doesn't matter any more.

7. Finally, NOT EVERY TZEENTCH ARMY IS THOUSAND SONS. There is room for variation, so deal with it.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:You still run into a few issue with that list.

I know that this wasn;t aimed at me, but I figured that I'd make a few points on this one...

The DP is a dark red, more khornate then Tzeentchen...

Really? I thought Tzeench was the Chaos God of Change... Where nothing is consistant, and nothing is what it seems to be... Perhaps the Daemon Prince is red for some unfathomable reason, a mystery known only to the machinations and consciousness of the painter, as well as the Lord Of Change, himself.

Show me in the fluff where it says that anything Tzeench is blue... until you can, I'll just point out that the higher form of the Blue Horror is the Pink Horror, and that this is the fickle will of Tzeench and the Fluff writers at GW.

Obliterators and Defiliers also don't fit in too well with a "Pure Tzeentch Themed army"

I'll agree with the Defiler, but the Oblits actually seem to be closer to the Tzeench ideology than any of the other options. Not all who worship Lord Tzeench are Thousand Sons. One might do well to remember that.

Tzeentch Raptors and Squads of 5 (raptors and Termies) not to mention then 10 man CSM squads falls a bit out of pure fluff (as 9 is Tzeentch's number and Raptors don't fit too well with most of the Tzeentch fluff anyway.

You speak of the Tzeench fluff as though it is static. There is no real fluff for this army list posted... There could be any number of possibilities to explain this, up to and including the fact that one should try to make their army both fluffy and playable... 9 man CSM squads? Wat is this, Codex: Space Marines? Perhaps the Chaos Lord in question was forbidden from defiling the sacred number, and so decided to ignore what is, at the moment, nothing more than a long passed nod to second edition. Maybe the Sargeant doesn't count for his army's purposes... maybe the Icon bearer doesn't count for his army's fluff purposes.

As far as the Termie's and Raptors go, the above still applies, but the question falls ultimately to one simple question... who really cares enough to try and get all nerd-ragey over it? You're not the one buying it, and if you were, you're not going to be able to get away with telling me that you can't fill in the gaps with a couple of new plastcs....

All that aside however the key point was to more ask "Does anyone else know people who think they know the fluff but in reality their list ends up being more of an "unintentional comedy"...

And all the while, the question should really be "Why do you care so much about a side issue that changes from edition to edition?"

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:The DP is a dark red, more khornate then Tzeentchen...

Like Magnus the Red, that frenzied, axe-wielding, teeth gnashing... hang on...

I do slightly agree. The faction flavours were always such a big part of the army (free champs, better summoning in favoured number units) and it is a shame to lose them. That said, I play a Khorne army. Nothing stopping you doing the same.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
1. dark crimson red is historically Word Bearers, not Khorne.

Thats to both the "Termi Lord*" and the DP

*The termi-lord is also actually a sorcerer if you look closely.

Either way, not "tzeentch"

JohnHwangDD wrote:
2. DPs can be of any color they want, and red isn't bad at all for Tzeentch. Quick question for somebody (anybody) who actually knows the Ksons fluff: Who was the Ksons Primarch, and what would a DP based on him look like???

Answer: Magnus the Red, Clad in Magenta armor with white to gold highlights and borders and a Cyclopean (extra?) Eye. Not what the DP was like... Also Magnus wields a Pole-axe, not a sword.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
3. If the DP can't be based on the Primarch, as he already has two blue HQs, the DP can be a "bonus model", so it's still a Tz force.

Again, one of the HQs was incorrectly identified, he claimed a normal sorcerer was the Ahriman model....

JohnHwangDD wrote:
4. the Defiler is blue and matches.

As (you and others) stated, color alone does not a themed army make.... (especially in regards to tzeentch)

The defiler is more out of place simply due to how it functions in relevance to Chaos fluff...

JohnHwangDD wrote:
5. Oblits fit in *every* CSM army, and limiting to 0-1 isn't unreasonable.

He has 4 Oblits, but that aside, its more so the fact that the Oblits are more "technophiliacs" (like the people of Mars) then magic users, if anything they woiuld ally with Khorne or Nurgle before someone like Tzeentch... (Nurgle because of the cold steel which they incorporate into their being.)

JohnHwangDD wrote:
6. Squad size doesn't matter any more.

It does in relation to fluff... thus the discussion about FLUFF...

JohnHwangDD wrote:
7. Finally, NOT EVERY TZEENTCH ARMY IS THOUSAND SONS. There is room for variation, so deal with it.

No its not, but the reasons I am saying it is not a Tzeentch themed army is not because it does not only consist of 1ksons, but because of EVERY OTHER REASON I listed....

Under your logic I guess I could be playing an UltraMarines themed army with 1 blue squad and the rest Grey Knights and SoB squads merely because I "Claim" they are Ultramarines.......


And @Dronze's last point (the others should be adequately covered in the above...)

This thread is about Fluff, if you are wondering why I should care about "fluff" perhaps you should ask yourself the question "Why post in a thread about fluff if you don't care about fluff"...

@D-AR:

1. The point was that you don't even know the traditional Legion colors, and even now, you're grasping.

2. Thank you for admitting that a Tzeentchian DP can be red based on Fluff.

3. So what? It's still a Tz sorceror in blue.

4. Thank you for admitting that the Defiler matches the rest of the force. If you have Fluff that states that Tzeentch NEVER uses Defilers, please share.

5. What are you talking about? Where is your Fluff basis here? I think you're making stuff up based on your personal opinion. If you've got actual Fluff, give us the quote and reference.

6. If numbers mattered, why aren't they mentioned anywhere in any the current Codex (CSM or Daemons) or Army Book (WoC, DoC, or Beasts)? Also, if you have Fluff that says that Tzeentch never fields units other than 9, please put up or shut up.

7. Given that none of your reasons are justifiable via actual Fluff, but only in your imagination / preferences / opinion / biases, I can't take your word here.
5.


I think the overall point is "Why post about Fluff if you don't know what you're talking about, or have no Fluff to back up your position?"

Wow i have heard horror stories about how tight people are around other's army composition vs fluff.

Now i have seen it all , good thread for future reference.

JohnHwangDD wrote:@D-AR:

1. The point was that you don't even know the traditional Legion colors, and even now, you're grasping.

2. Thank you for admitting that a Tzeentchian DP can be red based on Fluff.

3. So what? It's still a Tz sorceror in blue.

4. Thank you for admitting that the Defiler matches the rest of the force. If you have Fluff that states that Tzeentch NEVER uses Defilers, please share.

5. What are you talking about? Where is your Fluff basis here? I think you're making stuff up based on your personal opinion. If you've got actual Fluff, give us the quote and reference.

6. If numbers mattered, why aren't they mentioned anywhere in any the current Codex (CSM or Daemons) or Army Book (WoC, DoC, or Beasts)? Also, if you have Fluff that says that Tzeentch never fields units other than 9, please put up or shut up.

7. Given that none of your reasons are justifiable via actual Fluff, but only in your imagination / preferences / opinion / biases, I can't take your word here.
5.


I think the overall point is "Why post about Fluff if you don't know what you're talking about, or have no Fluff to back up your position?"

You know that even if you can say that he isn't backing anything up, you are going in on it the same way, post your proof as well?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also from what I noted is that Obliterators can work for anyone, except their main condition is the fact that they want technology, ancient technology they worship the stuff, so they could work with Tzeentch in a greater scheme of things.

Defilers a Daemon possessed and I can see them working with Tzeentch being possessed by one of Tzeenches blue horrors or something of the other.

The point with the incorrect models is right. But the overall theme of the thread is this to me, is why pick out the ebay auction on fluff wise, as so much as how the hell could that sell it looks like gak wise to me.


Overall though is that Tzeentch army can consist of whatever you want if you are going that way, since Tzeentch is the changer of ways, and everything follows into his plot. But on a Thousand sons army that would be something different to certain points and to what you would be using if they have a pre defined fighting strategy.

JohnHwangDD wrote:@D-AR:

1. The point was that you don't even know the traditional Legion colors, and even now, you're grasping.

Seeing is how I answered you question... I don't think your point is valid (One of my 1ksons squads is painted in original colors of the Thousand Sons of Magnus the Red as they were prismatic. However, this deep magenta is quite contrary to his color scheme)

JohnHwangDD wrote:
2. Thank you for admitting that a Tzeentchian DP can be red based on Fluff.

MAGENTA... MAGENTA is NOT the same as the Red that his DP/Sorcerer-lord thing was... Also, if you are assuming that EVERY daemon-prince that accompanies a TZEENTCH army is MAGNUS THE RED you are contradicting your own point of "Not all Tzeentch armies are Thousand Sons". Also, its very "grasping" (as you put it) to assume that a Daemon-Primarch would have the same stats and powers of a typical Daemon-Prince (See the Apoc Datasheet for Angron for more info...)

JohnHwangDD wrote:
3. So what? It's still a Tz sorceror in blue.

Does that make every Termi-sorcerer Typhus? (even tho he has a Daemon Weapon, which is typically ONLY reserved for Chaos Lords?)

Does that make Every dreadnaught Bjorn the Fel Handed?

Every Commisar is now Yarrik?

The list goes on and on and on...

JohnHwangDD wrote:
4. Thank you for admitting that the Defiler matches the rest of the force. If you have Fluff that states that Tzeentch NEVER uses Defilers, please share.

I said it matched in color... YOU YOURSELF said color does not have anything to do with list... I was pointing out your own hypocrisy, a hypocrisy that you have furthered with this little snippet.

BTW, Tzeentch Defilers are known more commonly as Deceivers and are outfitted VERY differently then the way that this person outfitted his "Smurf-Blue" Defilier...

JohnHwangDD wrote:
5. What are you talking about? Where is your Fluff basis here? I think you're making stuff up based on your personal opinion. If you've got actual Fluff, give us the quote and reference.

What are you talking about...? In direct reference to this point that is...

If you are referring to Oblits, Please see the Oblit entry in the 4th edition chaos codex. If you are referring to Tzeentch vs Tech, please see Liber Chaotica (either the anthology or the Tzeentch specific book, Vol 4, I own both...)

JohnHwangDD wrote:
6. If numbers mattered, why aren't they mentioned anywhere in any the current Codex (CSM or Daemons) or Army Book (WoC, DoC, or Beasts)? Also, if you have Fluff that says that Tzeentch never fields units other than 9, please put up or shut up.

Because Fluff and Codex Rules are two separate things...

JohnHwangDD wrote:
7. Given that none of your reasons are justifiable via actual Fluff, but only in your imagination / preferences / opinion / biases, I can't take your word here.

Actually all of it is taken from Black Library publications and/or fluff from the CSM, CCD, and Various other GW publications (Codex: Daemon Hunters, BGBs, etc)... Where is your info coming from?

JohnHwangDD wrote:
5.


I think the overall point is "Why post about Fluff if you don't know what you're talking about, or have no Fluff to back up your position?"

I wont point out the obvious hilarity of the last point here...but aside from errors, I do know my fluff, the better question is why blindly defend an Ebay poster... unless of course that poster is YOU! O.O

@TTP The point wasn't the ebay listing... the Ebay listing was merely an example to explain the actual point.. which, god knows why, was lost to this audience...

pity

-DAR


-----EDIT----

@Luna, to clarify, If you are breaking fluff (or even just bending it) under the admitted notion of personal strategy, maximum army potential, or some other explained reasoning, by all means if it makes sense then go for it. (For instance I found the "Pink Horde" list quite comical) I only pick away at this poor Ebayer because of the false and unjustified claims at a Tzeentch army, and was wondering if anyone else had a similar experience with someone who ignorantly wields the argument of "fluff" in defense of a list (be it poor or cheese powerful).

Hopefully this helps put things in perspective.