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After seeing an article on BoLS, I wanted to get Dakka's take on this. As a lot of you know, Death Company are no longer an Elites choice for Blood Angels, but a Troops choice instead. My question is do you think a Blood Angels army list can feasibly include Death Company without totally dedicating to them with an Astorath list? Also, how would you run the DC? In a Transport, or with Jump Packs? Would you add a Chaplain, a Reclusiarch or Lemartes? I'm interested in hearing what people have to say on the DC now.

For me, I see the pros as:
+ Potentially very dangerous assault unit, as any DC can upgrade to Power Weapons/Fists, Thunder Hammers and so on.
+ Armed with Bolters you could even have a decent firing line, as DC are Relentless.
+ In very large games you can run upto 30 in a squad, which is ridiculously hard to deal with, as each member has FNP. However, on the flipside, to run 30 you'd probably need an almost Apoc-sized battle.
+ Every 5 DC grants you a DC Dreadnought as a Troops choice, which is extremely nice.
+ Adding a Chaplain, a Relusiarch or Lemartes allows the DC to re-reroll any failed hits and wounds, which is amazing.

However, I'm not sure they're worth using because:
- They're fairly expensive units (4-5 more than a normal Tactical Marine, and that's before any upgrades).
- Thunder Hammers cost almost 2 Tactical Marines.
- Jump Packs are around 75% the cost of the DC Marine to begin with, making them an extremely expensive unit to run with any squad size.
- Black Rage is a HUGE downer. Not only does this give them the Rage USR (making them very difficult to control), Chaplains no longer negate this.
- Again from the Black Rage, this makes them a non-scoring unit.

I have 5 DC with Jump Packs from the old Codex, but I'm honestly considering ripping the Jump Packs off, giving them a Rhino to get around Rage a little and cutting points down.

How are people running DC with the new Codex? I apologise if it's too early ('Dex isn't officially out yet, I received mine early this week and have been stumped about the DC since).

Chaplins make them even more expensive. If your having re-rolls, you might aswell include heavy hitting powerfists. This means the squad is too expensive to be fielded with a rhino. This leaves jump packs (too expensive), a drop pod or land raider.

My point is; having the ability to have re-roll to-hit (anything) and re-roll to-wound, With multiple powerfists.. combined with MEQ FNP.. means they can essentially take out most units in the game, on a charge. But its expensive and you may be able to have better, more flexible results with a more mixed selection.

I'm also having trouble figuring out how to us DC effectively in the new dex. jump packs are just too expensive. Rhinos mitigate rage, but another option I have been pondering is using them in a drop pod. In a heavy pod list, droping them on the first turn forces you opponent to deal with them. Especially if you use them in conjunction with dreads. And since they have FNP they can probably divert heavy fire or absorb light fire. I don't know I have haven't really tested this yet. On another note I could see a pure death company army beign awesome in apoc. It would also be really cool looking.

Small squads of 5 with jumppacks tend to clean up rediculously well (unfortunately for I). Then again he was running a save heavy list.

DC with jump packs are virtually the same price and hitting power on the charge as they were in the previous book.. Only difference is there are OTHER options for hard hitting units now which make them not as great

Now, without JP they are very powerful at 20 pts each.. The issue is dealing with the rage

I've lost interest in the DC now. Jumping DC were a staple of my old pdf lists. Now, the only reason I'd take them anymore is to get a DC dread. So that means I need to take 5 DC. The cheapest way then is 5 DC in a pod for 135 points. Drop them somewhere and let the enemy deal with them while I concentrate on the units I can control.

The next cheapest option is to run them in a rhino. This offers the ability to put them in position, wait until the next turn to disembark as desired and get into assault with something.

The best way to get them to do what you want is with a land raider of some type. This allows you to deliver them to the target without problem, but it becomes a huge point sink and the biggest target in your army. I'm not sure it's worth it.

On the crazy fringe I've thought about running a 100% DC army just for giggles.

Astorath
10 DC, JP 3 PF, 5 PW, 2 IP
20 DC, 3 PF 5 PW 2 IP
19 DC, 3 PF, 4 PW, 2 IP

If you can work around their rage they can be a very powerful unit. I feel the only way to really run them is in a raider with a chappy. It makes the unit expensive but not really more than any other dedicated cc unit + HQ. A squad of 10 with 3 power weapons and a chappy will put a hurting on even th'ss terminators with sheer weight of wounds.

Sanguinary priest attached to assault squads give all the benefits of DC (bar loads of Weapon Upgrades) without the rage and are scoring.

Here are my current plans for BA Death Company:

Reclusiarch = 130
8 Death Company w/ Thunderhammer, 2 Power Weapons, Infernus Pistol = 230
Death Company Dreadnought w/ Blood Talons = 125
Storm Raven w/ TL Lascannon, TL Multimelta, Extra Armor = 215

Total combo = 700 points.

If you go first, alpha strike the Death Company Dreadnought anywhere there are troops on the table. Or even a Chimara or two, against a Chimara wall, the goal would be to kill two tanks with the Storm Raven, and assault the guys inside with the DC Crazy.

If you go second, reserve that puppy and turbo boast on as soon as it is available.

Good to see I'm not the only one who thinks the DC Jump Packs are expensive.

I only have 5 DC models currently, with Jump Packs and Bolt Pistol/CCW (they're from the old 'Dex where no Power Weapons were allowed), and to run just those is 175 points. If I was to remodel them with Power Weapons, the cost skyrockets. And thats only for 5 DC.

Aside from Rhino or Drop Pod I just can't see much use for them anymore, aside from very large point games.

Neith wrote:
Aside from Rhino or Drop Pod I just can't see much use for them anymore, aside from very large point games.

i think they can serve as a decent hammer unit in a land raider if used correctly. Against certain units like large mobs of orks they will do more damage than terminators.

I'm actually looking forward to using the DC with Jump Packs in a list with many other assault squads. I think it would have the same impact that dumpling man was describing in a drop pod list, they will soak up and attract tons of fire leaving everyone else relatively unmolested.

Rage is an issue but with their speed and increased anti-tank capability I don't think its as big an issue as it used to be.

Also, the ability to take a DC Dread is nothing to sneeze at. A dread with fleet, furious charge, and 'None can stay my Wrath' is very frightening. Again rage is an issue, but you can force you opponent to feed units to the units with rage, and that makes them a little more predictable

But I haven't tried them yet, still assembling and painting new models.

people always say they can lead units with rage around like the BA player isnt going to have any other units in his army. Is that landspeeder you claim your going to lead my dc around with going to survive the missiles and lascannons in the rest of my army? prolly not.

Rage can be worked around. Whether or not DC are better than assault termies remains to be seen in my book, and is the big issue i'm having with DC. Unless of course you plan on taking 2 heavy hitter units in which case both wouldnt hurt.

Khornatedemon wrote:people always say they can lead units with rage around like the BA player isnt going to have any other units in his army. Is that landspeeder you claim your going to lead my dc around with going to survive the missiles and lascannons in the rest of my army? prolly not.

Rage can be worked around. Whether or not DC are better than assault termies remains to be seen in my book, and is the big issue i'm having with DC. Unless of course you plan on taking 2 heavy hitter units in which case both wouldnt hurt.

Not scoring. Rage requires effort and begets mistakes. Expensive. Slot filling. Requires support or better substituted by other units.

I'm on the fence myself about DC. If not for the DC dreads I would say they weren't worth it compared to other units. However, since the dreads are a factor they become much more worthwhile. Rage is something I haven't dealt with in my army before but I believe it can be worked around.

Razerous wrote:

Khornatedemon wrote:people always say they can lead units with rage around like the BA player isnt going to have any other units in his army. Is that landspeeder you claim your going to lead my dc around with going to survive the missiles and lascannons in the rest of my army? prolly not.

Rage can be worked around. Whether or not DC are better than assault termies remains to be seen in my book, and is the big issue i'm having with DC. Unless of course you plan on taking 2 heavy hitter units in which case both wouldnt hurt.

Not scoring. Rage requires effort and begets mistakes. Expensive. Slot filling. Requires support or better substituted by other units.

oh noes! effort in using a unit! assault terminators dont score and are expensive as well and take up an elite slot that is probably more valuable than a troop slot in the BA list. Should I not run them too? The only direct support DC probably need are a chappy for the re-rolls. Otherwise they are no different from any high cost CC unit with the exception of that you have to play smart with them and cant just throw them into whatever like TH/SS terminators.

I think people are writing them off because they want easy mode and dont want to deal with having to think and use a unit with a draw back.

Khornatedemon wrote:

Razerous wrote:

Khornatedemon wrote:people always say they can lead units with rage around like the BA player isnt going to have any other units in his army. Is that landspeeder you claim your going to lead my dc around with going to survive the missiles and lascannons in the rest of my army? prolly not.

Rage can be worked around. Whether or not DC are better than assault termies remains to be seen in my book, and is the big issue i'm having with DC. Unless of course you plan on taking 2 heavy hitter units in which case both wouldnt hurt.

Not scoring. Rage requires effort and begets mistakes. Expensive. Slot filling. Requires support or better substituted by other units.

oh noes! effort in using a unit! assault terminators dont score and are expensive as well and take up an elite slot that is probably more valuable than a troop slot in the BA list. Should I not run them too? The only direct support DC probably need are a chappy for the re-rolls. Otherwise they are no different from any high cost CC unit with the exception of that you have to play smart with them and cant just throw them into whatever like TH/SS terminators.

I think people are writing them off because they want easy mode and dont want to deal with having to think and use a unit with a draw back.

In Codex: SM they are 40pt 2+/3++ with thunder hamers. Thats worth 40pts.

Rage, only slightly surviveable, non-scoring, 20-30pts/model.. more with a Chaplin which seems mandatory. So now we are talking terminator costs and terminators fill thier own roll better and I think, for the cost, you can field the supposed role of DC with other units, more efficiently.

I think unless you build an army around DC (Perfectly fine and could work well) there are better options. There may be "I-win" buttons but DC used badly are "I-loose" buttons too. They have more restrictions than just lack of easy mobility and cost.

but we're not talking C:SM are we. in C:BA TH terminators are 45 points each and if you want the benefit of FNP or re-rolls to hit have to be baby sat by a SP or a libby/chaplain thus increasing their cost.

If you want to compare them to terminators (as you might have to since nothing else in the book compares to DC or termies in points to damage ratio) the non-scoring issues is moot as neither can and unless you pulling the razorback spam list I doubt your going to be hurting for all 6 troop choices in a normal game. Plus being troops allows you to start them and their LRC on the board in DoW if you wanted.

What are the other options do you think are there? Sanguinary guard are junk and vanguard will cost you an arm and a leg to kit out. While I am a fan of terminators i think DC have their place as well, especially for someone who want a challenge and not point and click terminators.

I'm just bummed about the loss of rending. I loved my rending DC... they really made it worth it.

Vs average units such as space marines theyre actually BETTER now with a chaplain than before.. As I said the problem is not so much that theyre expensive (they were 35 pts with Jps before remember) its that there are ACTUAL options now

10 DC with no upgrades + lemartes is basically same cost as before

With 40 attacks they do *30* wounds to WS4 T4 troops! and lemartes does 3 wounds for a total of 13 wounds vs space marines or basically an entire mob of boyz

Before you did 15 + 5 rending so basically also 10 wounds vs space marines but the worse armor save the unit had the less effective rending really was.. Yeah you cant damage vehicles very well, but they really do the same damage vs most targets

I havnt picked up the codex yet, but I plan to have 5 DC in a drop pod with a cc inquisitor (The elite slot WH one). DC will have CC weapons and bolt/melta pistols (think thats the other option), drop them in with Mr.I in the enemy deployment, and let them kill their points. My fast vindicator will wipe up the mess. Overall, never really ran a dedicated CC unit before, but I like the look of the DC.

I"m having a hard time getting around the increase in cost and decrease in ability. Did notice a few things that make them nice.

FIrst is WS5. Against most targets this is almost like having a chaplain, as against WS4 or less you hit in 3's. So it's 33 percent more hits rather than 50 percent more hits on the charge. and this is every turn.

Second, with a chaplain you re-roll to-hit and to-wound.

9 guys in a rhino, with a basic elite chaplain costs (IIRC) 330. I'd add a T-Hammer and 2 PW's on top of this. Makes the squd 390, but once it rolls into your opponent's line you hit about twice as hard as the DC of the last codex. To get the greatest benefit, just seems like chaplain is required in the unit, but best kept cheap.

I think it's viable personally, but it competes for points with lots of other things like vanguard.

I am having a hard time with it too. I'm just going to type stream-of-consciousness so that maybe my train of thought might turn on some lightbulbs for you. I figure that TH/SS terminators are the toughest and hardest hitting units in the game. They do not perform so well against huge mobs of guys. They do not perform as well when your enemy can take you out long before I 1 rolls around (some of the 'nids monstrous creatures come to mind). And, termies can be whittled down over time because they are always attacking last and you can't consolidate from combat to combat. So, yeah they hit a lot harder and they have that amazing 3+ inv sv. But how many squads will they tear through before they are simply dragged down? Now I know you can just include a sanguinary priest to give them feel no pain to make one of the most survivable units twice as survivable. But, you can still be dragged down because they are always hitting last.

So, it seems the only thing the death company can do that the termies can't do as well is put out more attacks at initiative, with re-rolls to hit, re-rolls to wound, and a higher WS means that they just might do more damage that termies do. With only a minor hit in survivability. Assault Termies can eat more power weapons/ap 2 but that would mean that they are probably already dead (massed fire will take out any squad with so few models) or they are going up against the enemies best CC units... not necessarily the best thing to do with your assault units. You should generally be shooting what is good at assault and assaulting what is good at shooting.

So, if the death company (or whatever assault unit you deem is best) is focusing on proper targets then the death company has the higher chance of wipe outs and still number enough models to make it from combat to combat. Also if this squad is equipped with jump packs then you have to realize that these guys put out more damage (against infantry) and are much more maneuverable than terminators after the terminator's initial assault from a land raider (that you don't necessarily have to buy with a DC squad... and use those points for a death company dreadnought which will wipe out squads by itself).

Also, because with a chaplain you r-roll hits+wounds you basically have a super lightning claw squad if you give them all power weapons. With jump packs on the charge that is WS 5 Str 5 I 5 re-roll hits and wounds AND ignore armor saves (overkill much?). So, honestly I don't think you have to give more than 2-5 guys in your squad special weapons at all. You only need massed power weapons/fists/hammers vs monstrous creatures and vehicles... which can be dealt with more efficiently with other units in the codex (Furioso librarian with force weapon can kill monstrous creatures quite nicely... or that cool death company dreadnought too... and you have points for them because you didn't buy a landraider). I would imagine that after you have identified what you want to use to kill light infantry, medium infantry, heavy infantry, take/hold objectives, monstrous creatures, transports, tanks, etc... THEN you can see if you would rather use the slower but harder hitting and slightly more survivable termies or the faster attack spamming death company. I see great potential for both of these units... it really is just a matter of what else is in your army and what kind of hole you need to fill.

You can also just go nuts with them and give them jump packs and bolters and let them run across the field (behind los blocking objects to make them a little more controllable) and just run straight at the center or a weak point in your enemies army... when that squad breaks turn your attention to the next closest thing until you close the distance and tear things apart (equip them appropriately with PF/TH, PW, Infernus pistol, Hand Flamer etc. to make them a general threat to anything) and then force your enemy to deal with them or feel the wrath that they can inflict on anything. As long as you keep them behind LOS blocking cover and scoot them up the field a bit before you go for the mad rush... they won't be diminished in strength as much... or just deepstrike them and give them a few more infernus pistols/hand flamers/plasma pistols/bolters (whatever works for your situation) the enemy HAS to deal with them. They have to deal with them not because "onoz its a landraider" or "onoz that is hard to kill" it will because the death company WILL do damage if you let them. Feel no pain will help with massed bolter fire and the jump packs will prevent the enemy from running away as easily (should they try to run it will make things easier for the rest of your army to assault/get shots in).

I can see the magic. I just need to figure out how many I should have and how many weapons I should give them (remember they don't need as many weapons in the first place because they already can re-roll hits and wounds with a chaplain). I figure that no one should take them in increments other than 5. Because for every five you can take a DC dread. So... it is kind of a waste to take 3 or 8... better to just take 5, 10, 15, etc. and get access to the DC dreads accordingly.

Sorry for the wall of text... but I figure a stream-of-consciousness post might help people out better than just saying "termies iz best" or "da death company iz moar killy".

Auto rage makes them unviable in a competitive setting in my opinion. Sure you can shoot down your opponent's bait unit that's leading them by the nose around the table but that's soaking up your shooting for a turn or two.

G

I wrote up an ard boyz army that looked like this

astorath
2 squads of sanguinary guard with two infernus pistols, power fist.
2 sanguinary priests with jump packs
2 squads of 30 death company with 8 power fists and a thunder hammer in each.

It wont win, but there will be someone who will get their day ruined by that army.

Lol, I like the idea of having absolutely NO scoring units. A purely "kill them and take their stuff" army. Sounds hilarious.

What about the DC dreads? Not enough points?

not enough points.
Its a fishermans army. It casts a net far and wide and slowly catches anything in it. Sure it will lose to anything fast and meched up, but if some body is lame enough to run horde orks that build will ruin their day.

Hoarde orks is lame?

I think their best used with 5 jumppackers with a pfist or 2 and infernus pistol/hand flamers, with a deathcompany dread both in a storm raven, attach an ic for a bit of extra cc punch and you have a nasty hammer.

Just finished a game this evening with my new list.

2 Sanguinary Priests, Infernus Pistols 130 (with RAS)
3x Assault Squad (5), Flamer, Hand Flamer, Power Fist 615
Razorback, TL Plasma Gun/Lascannon, HKM


Reclusiarch 130 w/
9 Death Company, Thunderhammer, 4 Power Weapons 270
Death Company Dreadnought, Magna Grapple, Blood Talons 140
Storm Raven, TL Lascannon, TL Multimelta, Extra Armor 215

Now that is a pretty expensive DC squad at 1500 points. I was a bit lucky though in that I was able to get them on the table fast by irst turn three as I did DS the whole squad. I could deploy normally if I had first tuen but I decided to start everythingb in reserve. . It would mean everything starting in reserve. As it worked out I was able to DS safely against an IG list and my Raven got to their lines without damage. There is nothing that IG can muster that can take on that squad. It was a massacre once they started getting into melee. I used the Razors to go after objectives and had one with priest back up the death star unit.

I'm now a believer. I had thought to use a Landraider and drop the DC dread to get the points needed but I'm glad I had my magna grapple after the DS and the Blood Talons were awesome in assault. Never mind a Commissar and blob squad. You will eat through it quickly along with any command squad nearby. Twenty guardsman are laughable against this combined squad. Really, this squad is hard to take out.

I think that one of their real strengths is that they attract a lot of attention. They cannot be ignored as they are half your army list and your opponent really wants to take them down. But it's not as easy as it looks. Those twelve models have some staying power. I would certainly use them again.