Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Neith wrote:After seeing an article on BoLS, I wanted to get Dakka's take on this. As a lot of you know, Death Company are no longer an Elites choice for Blood Angels, but a Troops choice instead. My question is do you think a Blood Angels army list can feasibly include Death Company without totally dedicating to them with an Astorath list? Also, how would you run the DC? In a Transport, or with Jump Packs? Would you add a Chaplain, a Reclusiarch or Lemartes? I'm interested in hearing what people have to say on the DC now.

For me, I see the pros as:
+ Potentially very dangerous assault unit, as any DC can upgrade to Power Weapons/Fists, Thunder Hammers and so on.
+ Armed with Bolters you could even have a decent firing line, as DC are Relentless.
+ In very large games you can run upto 30 in a squad, which is ridiculously hard to deal with, as each member has FNP. However, on the flipside, to run 30 you'd probably need an almost Apoc-sized battle.
+ Every 5 DC grants you a DC Dreadnought as a Troops choice, which is extremely nice.
+ Adding a Chaplain, a Relusiarch or Lemartes allows the DC to re-reroll any failed hits and wounds, which is amazing.

However, I'm not sure they're worth using because:
- They're fairly expensive units (4-5 more than a normal Tactical Marine, and that's before any upgrades).
- Thunder Hammers cost almost 2 Tactical Marines.
- Jump Packs are around 75% the cost of the DC Marine to begin with, making them an extremely expensive unit to run with any squad size.
- Black Rage is a HUGE downer. Not only does this give them the Rage USR (making them very difficult to control), Chaplains no longer negate this.
- Again from the Black Rage, this makes them a non-scoring unit.

I have 5 DC with Jump Packs from the old Codex, but I'm honestly considering ripping the Jump Packs off, giving them a Rhino to get around Rage a little and cutting points down.

How are people running DC with the new Codex? I apologise if it's too early ('Dex isn't officially out yet, I received mine early this week and have been stumped about the DC since).

DC with power weapon@35 points< Lighting Claw Terminator@40 points
DC with Jump pack@35 points<Sanguinary Guard @40 points (Scoring Unit with Dante)
DC with Jump Pack and power weapon=50 points a model that's 25% more than the cost of Sanguinary Guard or Terminators, both of which gain furious charge and feel no pain in the presence of a Sanguinary priest.
If you don't see the folly of 50 point DC may I present the 110 point DC
DC with jump pack and twin thunder hammers=110 points.

My point is simple: It's easy to overspend with DC.

Uses of DC

The bolter fire line
DC with relentless and a bolter @20 < Thousand sons with slow and purposeful +inferno bolts@23 points

DC dreads: For every 5 DC you can lose a troops choice and buy another non scoring unit. Seeing as how 2/3 games are objective based feel free to use up all 6 troops choices on units that can not win the game, it's perfectly legal and your opponents will never complain.

DC in a Rhino with a chaplain and a power fist or 2: At 20 points each with rerolls to hit and to wound they are going to pump out a lot of standard wounds. Mathhammer against MEQ or orks goes as follows

10 DC=40 attacks=30 (20 initial, 10 more with the re roll)hits=22.5 wounds (15 initial, plus 7.5 more with the re roll)

That's enough to really make ork boys cry. It should even drop 3 to 4 termies, and that's without a bonus from a sanguinary priest. I'm against the use of land raiders in general, but if you insist on running one loading a bunch of DC, a chaplain, and a SP on board would= a boat load of hurt when combined with an assault ramp.

@ schadenfreude

Why would you add a Sanguinary Priest to a Death Company Squad? They already have both of the rules that he bestows on the squad.

Cheers,
~Volkan

Oooops my bad, forgot they already have FC.

It doesn't change my opinion on DC and jump packs though.

At 20 points a model for a mechanized assault unit they are a good deal, at 35 points with a jump pack they are just plain over priced.

If you go strictly by cost per wound against Meqs, DC outperform Sang Guard. If you add a Chaplain to the DC and Dante to the SG they still outperform the SG. DC on the charge with a Chaplain ( depending on loadout) will easily take down Nob Bikers or Terminators. Nids are their worst enemy though. Trygons, Tyrants, Primes, Toxigaunts, et all will often win combat. So there are nemesis units against them.

Some of the cost comparisons are really not fair evaluations. DC have FNP, FC and Fleet. With a Chappie they reroll hits and wounds. So they are very good at what they do.

I agree there. If they paid the same price for packs as vanguard I'd might be more interested in that option. As it is I think that a drop pod delivery might be the way to go. not sure about bolters vs bp/ccw yet.

Cheers,
~Volkan


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@ felixcat

Death Company do not have fleet, only their dreads do.

Cheers,
~Volkan

felixcat wrote:
If you go strictly by cost per wound against Meqs, DC outperform Sang Guard. If you add a Chaplain to the DC and Dante to the SG they still outperform the SG. DC on the charge with a Chaplain ( depending on loadout) will easily take down Nob Bikers or Terminators. Nids are their worst enemy though. Trygons, Tyrants, Primes, Toxigaunts, et all will often win combat. So there are nemesis units against them.

Some of the cost comparisons are really not fair evaluations. DC have FNP, FC and Fleet. With a Chappie they reroll hits and wounds. So they are very good at what they do.

FNP and FC are a dime a dozen in the new BA codex. Everything can have it.

The mobility of 50 point jump pack, fleet, power weapon DC is pretty staggering, but is it worth 150 points in a 10 man squad when a fast Rhino is 1/3 the cost? In a 6 man squad a razorback will still be cheaper. Jump pack DC will either be a very small squad that will be vulnerable to missile and plasma fire, or a 400+ point uber squad of doom that will be hard pressed to make it's points back seeing as how it's going to be a plasma magnet.

I will certainly be putting some into my BA army, however, here is the maximum cost that they could be worth.


60 (3 Models)
540 (27 more Models) (600 total)
450 (jump packs) 1050 total
900 (Thunder hammers) 1950 total
90 (Plasma or Infernus pistols) 2040
150 (Lemartes) 2190

Two thousand one hundred and Ninety points.

Perfect for apocalypse though.

Khornatedemon wrote:oh noes! effort in using a unit! assault terminators dont score and are expensive as well and take up an elite slot that is probably more valuable than a troop slot in the BA list. Should I not run them too? The only direct support DC probably need are a chappy for the re-rolls. Otherwise they are no different from any high cost CC unit with the exception of that you have to play smart with them and cant just throw them into whatever like TH/SS terminators.

I think people are writing them off because they want easy mode and dont want to deal with having to think and use a unit with a draw back.

Well said, I really don't see rage as an issue....you want them in CC right? and with JP's the 12" move you can make sure your where you need to be, and if you don't want to assault something run...they are not fleet so they can't charge.....IDK....I realy only see the consolidate to the closes a minor issue but you want them in CC. Can someone tell me how rage is so bad?

they look alright but if i have a realy moblie unit i could just make them run around the board wich would be really funny

@ The Farseer

Do keep in mind that your really mobile unit will need to be the closest unit to them for it to lead them around. The list as a whole can bring some pretty decent shooting to the table so fast kites might not live too long. and if for any reason it gets immobilized the DC will probably eat it.
Also its not so much an issue if they happen to be in a transport or if they come down amongst some infantry in a pod. They might die from taking fire. But if they don't then they are a pretty big problem in the backfield.

Cheers,
~Volkan

@ felixcat

Death Company do not have fleet, only their dreads do.

I know - I was referring to my Death Star unit with a DC dread.

Do keep in mind that your really mobile unit will need to be the closest unit to them for it to lead them around. The list as a whole can bring some pretty decent shooting to the table so fast kites might not live too long. and if for any reason it gets immobilized the DC will probably eat it.
Also its not so much an issue if they happen to be in a transport or if they come down amongst some infantry in a pod. They might die from taking fire. But if they don't then they are a pretty big problem in the backfield.

Well I have my DC in a transport so Rage only becomes an issue once disembarked and you can be smart with them. In three games Rage was not an issue - going head to head in cc with Nids was though, lol. Never mind - I took away some knowledge for next time.

It wouldn't be cheap... But filling up a Redeemer or Crusader with a unit of them plus maybe a Chaplain and pointing them at the enemy will certainly ruin someone's day. I'd maybe give them one Power Fist or Thunder Hammer so they don't get screwed if they get into a fight with a Dreadnought.

I keep trying to figure out a way for them to be good with bolters and jump packs...the idea of relentless jump packers makes me giddy. But at 35 points its just way too much. Games workshop did it on purpose so that no one would want to give them jump packs, but everyone already had the DC models with jump packs, so we have to buy new models. Anyhow, without jump packs its still useful to give a guy with power fist a bolter, since he won't lose 1 attack for a having close combat weapons

Really you are paying the exact same price from the previous codex for a DC with a jump pack, 30 points per model, 5 points per jump pack. I also play tested the DC and I found them to be great, but that's probably because I'm not stupid when it comes to kiting and I also used the death company dread with the new blood talons, lets just say that one dread took out 20 marines in one combat.

I was playing a BA army over the weekend with my Necrons. I didn't do so bad and I found that you could lure those DC guys if you wanted. I used immortals to keep going back while putting fire into them. They would not go down easily though. But, I wasn't doing bad until that Mephiston guy came in and killed everything. He was a death machine. He single-handedly killed 5 Destroyers, 4 Immortals, a Destroyer Lord and a Lord. I only got 3 wounds on him and one of those wounds was because he periled. He would kill my lords before they could do anything to him.

So, in closing. DC. OK. I can handle them. Mephiston. My God! I need more shooting!

My intention for the death company are one of two options. I have been thinking since the codex came out of ways to overcome or get around the 'rage' problem. Also I would not run both of these in one list as they are both fairly expensive units and I would have to include astorath and i'm against that many points on HQ.

Unit 1:
5 Death Company with jump packs = 175
Dante - 225
Lemartes - 150

= 550

You would always hold this unit in reserve. With Dante using Descent of angels you can use this ability to get them on second or third turn since his ability applies to the unit. Then you use Dante's other ability Tactical Precision to deep strike them without scattering directly where you want them. Mainly behind their lines close to tasty non Mechanical units holding objectives. Your turn again they jump over the terrain, hit the closest unit to them (Opponent would have one turn to attempt to distract them, but you should be able to avoid that with a well done deep strike with no scatter.)

Then end of their turn if you haven't killed whatever you hit you can use Hit and run to bail out of combat and on your turn move back in and get the furious charge again. Basically obtaining the +1Str and +1 Int on combat on everyone of yours turns. A well used Hit and run can also potentially get you into combat with another unit instead. Also if things look too hairy Dante can always bail out of combat himself by pulling the unit out and letting just them go back in and he can direct his attention elsewhere.

Unit 2:
15 Death Company on foot = 300 (All Armed with bolters)
Reclusiarch Chaplain = 130pts or Chaplain Elite = 100pts (depending on your elite choices and points balance)
Land Raider Crusader = 250pts (Before upgrades)

= 680pts

This mass of models would have rage negated by using a transport. After you got them where you wanted them (Assuming you can get them where you want) you bail out of the assault ramp, fire 30 bolter rounds into whatever your looking at, and then assault for 45 attacks that re-roll hits and wounds at WS/S/INT 5. I think those number speak for themselves before applying math hammer to it.

In either of these cases you could also throw in a thunder hammer/PF or two in either squad depending on what you can afford points wise to help deal with a potential Walker/armor situation. Also that while I think these could be very effective, I can't say I have had the chance to test either yet because I am still expanding my Death company with the release of the new death company box which I think is amazing! I plan on buying multiple boxes and will have lots of parts for my tactical and assault squads. :

Also, the possibility of Sanguine Gaurd has crossed my mind and they would be better in some cases. For example if you did the Dante squad with them and and a Sanguinary priest you have a large squad of +2 saves with master-crafted power weapons, feel no pain, furious charge that can all have infernus pistols. They do not however re-roll hits and wounds and do not have WS 5 and rival the DC if not more after infernus pistols for points cost. They would however be scoring.

If all else fails, at least the models look spectacular!

I played some DC and two DC dreads on Monday. I decided to go first and it was too easy for my opponent to react to my deployment by putting little groups of gants in the way of the DC/dreads so they couldn't get the assault on anything good.

I think The dreads need pods and the DC should deepstrike with their JP. Or you could go second and force him to redeploy in his movement phase. It wasn't that the DC were being led around, it was just that the hordes protected the bigger bugs from the assaults.

The DC did last forever even though they were fed speed bumps and counter assaulted. Very Durable

mcfly wrote:I will certainly be putting some into my BA army, however, here is the maximum cost that they could be worth.


60 (3 Models)
540 (27 more Models) (600 total)
450 (jump packs) 1050 total
900 (Thunder hammers) 1950 total
90 (Plasma or Infernus pistols) 2040
150 (Lemartes) 2190

Two thousand one hundred and Ninety points.

Perfect for apocalypse though.

That unit, sanguinor, and 5 tac marines. hooray ard boyz army.

Bearing in mind that I dont have the blood angels codex or play as them but I have read the forums, White Dwarf etc.

I think that the Death Company are under-estimated.

I'd say their main flaws are their price and other options available. Whilst Rage can be a problem, the difference with Death Company is that, providing the have the almost obligatory powerfist/thunder hammer, they can take on just about anything, unlike, for example, Blood Claws. So I don't believe rage to be as horrible as it's made out to be, add their own ability to their manoeuvrability and I wouldn't see it as too big a problem.

I feel that an advantage of Death Company is that their reputation, appearance and ability FORCES your opponent to deal with them, ie. they cannot be ignored. This is an advantage in ways as although the death company will draw fire, the rest of the army will not. For example, Termies are good. no doubt about that, but if you DS them then they lack the manoeuvrability afterwards and they will not have been taking the enemy fire on the rest of your armies behalf in the earlier stages, unlike Death Company.

I'd imagine some of the best uses for Death Company is to have 2 (or more) small to medium (5-7) sized Jump Pack squads amidst a Blood Angels army that mainly consists of mechanised or assault squads. This adds two tough, very killing and manoeuvrable squads that will draw fire from the rest of your army and really add a punch on the offensive.

Or drop-podding. The allows them to be right on the enemy's door step from turn 1 and will REALLY require dealing with, either in the form of shooting them (therefore not shooting the rest of your army) or running away (into the the face of the rest of your army) or ignore them and have them rip you apart.

Add the potential for chaplains and death company dreads and I'd say that's a recipe for destruction...

I think as much as their ability, the Death Company's sheer reputation and requirement to be dealt with is a major advantage - whilst you can have this at more numbers than say, Sang' guard or termies.

I'm not saying they're the best, I just feel a lot of you aren't recognising their potential (IMHO)...

I just wanna know where GW got their numbers from. I can take assualt squads, drop the packs and get into a rhino for 15 pts. Yet a single DC pack is 15 points. You're telling me one jump pack = rhino?

Well a lot of GW codexs have the issue of "most of it is done" and then near the end they add something totally new.. yet dont go back and revisit the earlier stuff

Example is the SM codex which was supposed to be codex: ultramarines but near the end of the development cycle they added Vulkan, Pedro, lysander and shrike to make it just a variety of chapters.. The stuff they added at the end was of a much different "power level" compared to the ultramarine characters (Notice how chapter tactics is preserved for all the ultramarine characters, yet replaced with the non-Ums.. makes me think tactics was a Um specific ability in the beginning of the dev cycle)