China does birth control in the way that only China can

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**Flashman**

This weekend's classic news story. I suppose I should really think this is outrageous, but as I live in the teenage pregnancy capital of the south, I have found myself wondering in the past whether a similar (but not the same) approach should be adopted over here.

Times wrote:China tries to sterilise 10,000 parents over one-child rule

Family planning authorities have detained hundreds of people against their will in a campaign to sterilise 10,000 men and women suspected of trying to violate China’s strict birth control policies.

About 1,300 people were being held in cramped and poor conditions in offices throughout the small town of Puning in southern Guangdong Province and are forced to listen to “lectures” on state rules limiting the size of families, the Nanfang Countryside Daily said.

In the years after China launched its strict “one couple, one child” family planning policy in the late 1970s, abuses such as forced later-term abortions, sterilisations and even the killing of newborn babies were widely reported.

But such practices have fallen sharply in recent years as the policy has become quite widely accepted and exceptions have been introduced.

The county intends to sterilise 9,559 women or their husbands who are suspected of planning to have a second or third child. So far about half that number have agreed to comply, the newspaper said.

Officials have detained the elderly parents of those who do not submit voluntarily to the surgery or who try to evade the authorities to force them to comply, the newspaper said. It reported that on April 10 some 100 people, mostly elderly, were seen inside a damp 200 square metre building at a township family planning centre.

The newspaper said: “There were some mats on the floor, but the room was too small for all people to lie down and sleep, so the young ones had to stand or squat. Due to the lack of quilts, many cuddled up to fight the cold.”

Among those being held was the 64-year-old father of Huang Ruifeng, who already has three daughters. Mr Huang said: “Several days ago, a village official called me and asked me or my wife to return for the surgery. Otherwise they would take away my father.”

Rules in Puning, as in most rural areas of China, allow farmers to have a second child if the first is a daughter. After that couples are supposed to stop.

An official at the Puning Population and Family Planning Bureau, who declined to be identified, told the Global Times: “It’s not uncommon for family planning authorities to adopt some tough tactics.”

Family planning officials are appraised on their success in enforcing birth control policies and sometimes employ such extreme methods if they fail to meet state-set targets. Authorities in Puning have already adopted a tough stance against couples who flout the rules.

They and their relatives who apply for permits to build a house are rejected. They are also being denied a local cash bonus. Illegal children are denied residency registration, a penalty that means they are excluded from a place in school.

One official told the newspaper that an investigation would be launched to establish whether authorities in Puning had exceeded their remit. A state-level regulation stipulates that couples who violate the family planning policy must not be punished without proper authorisation.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

And yet as I encounter more and more Burberry clad scratters with oddly monickered chavlets, I find myself wondering if China indeed has a point.

**Flashman**

What I consider to be a fair solution would be to offer teenagers from certain sections of the populace the injection (makes you sterile for a year or so). If they turn it down and subsequently get pregnant, no benefits & definitely no free house either.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

Indeedy. And as someone currently homeless, that might help sort me out as well.

**ShumaGorath**

They and their relatives who apply for permits to build a house are rejected. They are also being denied a local cash bonus. Illegal children are denied residency registration, a penalty that means they are excluded from a place in school.

Given chinas immense population issues I understand on a logical level the concept of enforced curbs on childbirth. Their methodology though is barbaric and idiotic in many cases.

**Commander Endova**

Man, this makes the American Planned Parenthood groups like like a bunch of pu****es.

**Wrexasaur**

ShumaGorath wrote:
They and their relatives who apply for permits to build a house are rejected. They are also being denied a local cash bonus. Illegal children are denied residency registration, a penalty that means they are excluded from a place in school.

Given chinas immense population issues I understand on a logical level the concept of enforced curbs on childbirth. Their methodology though is barbaric and idiotic in many cases.

Definitely barbaric, although consistent within logical boundaries, given the context, as it would be the defining factor.

Lame... Glad I'm not within that 10 grand section of people.

**Corpsesarefun**

Its not exactly unique to china, India did a very similar thing in 70's.

**JohnHwangDD**

ShumaGorath wrote:
They and their relatives who apply for permits to build a house are rejected. They are also being denied a local cash bonus. Illegal children are denied residency registration, a penalty that means they are excluded from a place in school.

Given chinas immense population issues I understand on a logical level the concept of enforced curbs on childbirth. Their methodology though is barbaric and idiotic in many cases.

More ignorant words were seldom spoken.

China has huge population issues, and is forced to confront them out of necessity. Population drives land and energy, with tremendous cost. As a third world country, an unlimited population is a luxury that they cannot afford.

China uses carrot (cash) and stick (NO free education, NO housing permits). If you have money, you can pay your own way. If not, you follow the rules. Same as in any other country. This isn't rocket science, folks.

One imagines that China would love to be rich enough to afford an unlimited population. Perhaps you'll cede land (and China needs a *lot* of land) and then subsidize their energy needs to support such a population?

**Corpsesarefun**

JohnHwangDD wrote:

China uses carrot (cash) and stick (free education, housing permits). If you have money, you can pay your own way. If not, you follow the rules. Same as in any other country. This isn't rocket science, folks.

Just to nitpick the carrot and stick method refers to using a reward (the carrot) and a punishment (the stick) to motivate something rather than what you said which appears to be either reward/reward or two options.

**ShumaGorath**

JohnHwangDD wrote:
ShumaGorath wrote:
They and their relatives who apply for permits to build a house are rejected. They are also being denied a local cash bonus. Illegal children are denied residency registration, a penalty that means they are excluded from a place in school.

Given chinas immense population issues I understand on a logical level the concept of enforced curbs on childbirth. Their methodology though is barbaric and idiotic in many cases.

More ignorant words were seldom spoken.

China has huge population issues, and is forced to confront them out of necessity. Population drives land and energy, with tremendous cost. As a third world country, an unlimited population is a luxury that they cannot afford.

China uses carrot (cash) and stick (free education, housing permits). If you have money, you can pay your own way. If not, you follow the rules. Same as in any other country. This isn't rocket science, folks.

One imagines that China would love to be rich enough to afford an unlimited population. Perhaps you'll cede land (and China needs a *lot* of land) and then subsidize their energy needs to support such a population?

Ok, now tell me captain DD kings of the good ship "CHINA DOES WHAT IT HAS TOO" how exactly is it a good idea economically or socially to create an underclass of ill educated and untracked children? How is it moral to deprive children education because of the status of their birth? And how is it conducive to the construction and wellfare of a nation state to en masse release "citizens" into the wilds of ill educated obscurity? This sounds like a great way to create crime, poverty, and even more idiotic it creates a systemic issue with regards to population control given that the ill educated and poor statistically bear more children in agregate than the more cosmopolitan in society.

At least try and read the PARTS OF MY POST THAT I EVEN TAKE CARE TO BOLD when you want to insult my intelligence by cracking open conservapedia and talking about chinas issues.

**JohnHwangDD**

Heh, yeah, that needed clarifying. Thanks, corpses.

**dogma**

JohnHwangDD wrote:
China uses carrot (cash) and stick (NO free education, NO housing permits). If you have money, you can pay your own way. If not, you follow the rules. Same as in any other country. This isn't rocket science, folks.

I don't believe that was being disputed. I do believe it was being judged on moral grounds. That doesn't make the argument ignorant, though it might render it naive.

**ShumaGorath**

dogma wrote:
JohnHwangDD wrote:
China uses carrot (cash) and stick (NO free education, NO housing permits). If you have money, you can pay your own way. If not, you follow the rules. Same as in any other country. This isn't rocket science, folks.

I don't believe that was being disputed. I do believe it was being judged on moral grounds. That doesn't make the argument ignorant, though it might render it naive.

Barbaric is a term with moral connotations. Idiotic is not. I used both and I also stated "in many cases" which implies specific circumstances.

**dogma**

Something becomes idiotic when the commenter views the consequences of a given action as negative, which is not an empirical judgment, but something which depends on valuation. Well, at least in those situations where the consequences of possible actions are not directly comparable, which seems to be most situations.

**ShumaGorath**

dogma wrote:Something becomes idiotic when the commenter views the consequences of a given action as negative, which is not an empirical judgment, but something which depends on valuation. Well, at least in those situations where the consequences of possible actions are not directly comparable, which seems to be most situations.

Semantics aside value judgements are not inherently moralistic and given that social contexts typically lack empirical evidence anyway I'm pretty happy with my assessment. They prosecute a campaign of population control but sometimes do it barbarically and idiotically. I have lined out why I used the value judgement of idiotic in my response to DD if you want me to empirically compare first second and third world birthrate statistics pooled historically from regimes of educated and ill educated then contrast it against current peoples party practices you're welcome to send me 250$ dollars for my trouble.

**Slarg232**

I'm definately on Shuma's side here. No matter what problems they are having with their population they are definately going about it the wrong way. This is Stupid, Idiotic, and Ludicrous....

Though I suppose the good news is is that we don't have to worry about their competition as a super power in a couple years......

**JohnHwangDD**

Wow, Shuma - you speak as if No Child is Left Behind in the US, that education is a great success here, and if only we could have China do the same...

Education is expensive, and those parents aren't banned from educating their children - they just won't have it provided by the state. It's a deliberately harsh penalty because nothing else has sufficient deterrent power.

Now, people complaining without understanding, nor having a better idea? That's idiotic *and* ignorant!

Ranting at someone who points out the pointlessness of your argument? Idiotic and barbaric.

**ShumaGorath**

Slarg232 wrote:I'm definately on Shuma's side here. No matter what problems they are having with their population they are definately going about it the wrong way. This is Stupid, Idiotic, and Ludicrous....

Though I suppose the good news is is that we don't have to worry about their competition as a super power in a couple years......

Actually I think you missed the highlighted part too. I pretty much only take issue with the methodology behind the forced sterilization's (threatening family and whatnot) and the wacky choice to exclude children from the system when they are born that way causing other related systemic issues.

**dogma**

ShumaGorath wrote:
Semantics aside value judgements are not inherently moralistic...

That's debatable, but for simplicity's sake its sufficient to say that valuation and morality are very closely associated in situations where directly comparable statistics are absent.

ShumaGorath wrote:
and given that social contexts typically lack empirical evidence anyway

I don't know. The fact that those stricken by poverty tend to have more children is certainly based on empirical evidence. The issue here is whether or not that trend can be altered through selective coercion. There are strong incentives to have children under third world conditions (particularly those which are dependent upon agrarian subsistence), if those incentives are removed, mitigated, or countered it stands to reason that the birth rate should fall.

ShumaGorath wrote:
...I'm pretty happy with my assessment.

I never said your assessment was flawed.

**Slarg232**

ShumaGorath wrote:
Slarg232 wrote:I'm definately on Shuma's side here. No matter what problems they are having with their population they are definately going about it the wrong way. This is Stupid, Idiotic, and Ludicrous....

Though I suppose the good news is is that we don't have to worry about their competition as a super power in a couple years......

Actually I think you missed the highlighted part too. I pretty much only take issue with the methodology behind the forced sterilization's (threatening family and whatnot) and the wacky choice to exclude children from the system when they are born that way causing other related systemic issues.

Maybe, Idk. I can't say I agree with forcing something like this on people, either, and the super power comment was directed at the lack of schooling for the kids born when they aren't supposed to be.

But then what more could anyone expect from China? Damned Commies.....

**ShumaGorath**

That's debatable, but for simplicity's sake its sufficient to say that valuation and morality are very closely associated in situations where directly comparable statistics are absent.

Certainly, and apples and oranges are both fruit. You can debate any sentiment to a standstill if you just pull at the granularity of the language used.

I don't know. The fact that those stricken by poverty tend to have more children is certainly based on empirical evidence. The issue here is whether or not that trend can be altered through selective coercion. There are strong incentives to have children under third world conditions (particularly those which are dependent upon agrarian subsistence), if those incentives are removed, mitigated, or countered it stands to reason that the birth rate should fall.

As a counterpoint there are strong incentives to avoid children in first world nations, especially at the poverty threshold yet the same trends still bare out. Wait.. Did you just disagree with me than explain my point as your point? I'm confus.

I never said your assessment was flawed.

My head asplode.

**LunaHound**

Different country , different society , different social values.

What works in A might not work in B.

**Kilkrazy**

In China you can't legally move to the city for a better job without an internal passport.

**Tony the guardsman**

As I Chinese,I have the right to defend my country

If you just talk about it,its fine,but if you are insulting or making fun of China,we have problems!

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slarg232 wrote:
But then what more could anyone expect from China? Damned Commies.....

You keep your mouth clean

**lord of the ghosts**

So, China said:
STOP HAVING SEX, DAMNIT!!!!
And now they are going to stab at sex organs until they don't work?

**Mannahnin**

Tony the guardsman wrote:As I Chinese,I have the right to defend my country

If you just talk about it,its fine,but if you are insulting or making fun of China,we have problems!

China was not called a name. An opinion was expressed that some of their policies, or means of enacting those policies, are barbaric and idiotic. This certainly worth debating, but not necessarily untrue. Locking grandparents in a crowded, unheated building because their children have had too many kids or because the government suspects that they plan to does not exactly seem just or good. And as Shuma pointed out, if one of their means of discouraging extra kids is to exclude those kids from school, this may be counterproductive to their own ends (ie: possibly idiotic, if the consequences are dire enough).

That said, denigrating whole countries is definitely inappropriate, and people should be careful not to do so.

**Tony the guardsman**

Thanks mod

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Like I said,debate is fine,just dun go too far

**Slarg232**

Tony the guardsman wrote:As I Chinese,I have the right to defend my country

If you just talk about it,its fine,but if you are insulting or making fun of China,we have problems!

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slarg232 wrote:
But then what more could anyone expect from China? Damned Commies.....

You keep your mouth clean

I meant it as a joke, and since you jumped to the defensive right off the bat, not exactly feeling like apologizing for it. It is no different than the fact that the entire world thinks that the U.S. is a bunch of spoiled brats who expect everything to be handed to them.

Mannahnin, Wilco

**Tony the guardsman**

Joke?okay then,and since you've cleared out your purpose,nvm then

I usually stay goofy everywhere,but I do have bottom lines