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Jack wrote:

OT: Why do people judge china?

We are humans, same as the people who made the decision. Look, if you lack the wherewithal to be able to come to a conclusion or want to mired in relativism, that is fine. Just don't project those inadequacies on the rest of us.

Ahtman wrote:

Jack wrote:

OT: Why do people judge china?

We are humans, same as the people who made the decision. Look, if you lack the wherewithal to be able to come to a conclusion or want to mired in relativism, that is fine. Just don't project those inadequacies on the rest of us.

Don't pull relativism into this. Relativism is relatively great compared to moralism or other philosophies that pretend to be better.

Why was the one child policy implemented in the first place?

LunaHound wrote:Why was the one child policy implemented in the first place?

Just a link to a wiki on the subject

Although I have just realised you could be asking a rhetorical question

sebster wrote:
Somewhat, though I will point out there is a general tendency to assume a high minded method is naive, while a harsh method is pragmatic. I find the idea of forced sterilisation to be so problematic in its application that it's supporters must be utterly naive about how it actually works in practice.

Your comment about naivete is certainly true. Though there is something to said for cultural variance when it comes to determining what a given society can tolerate in the course of its development. Forced sterilization would certainly never work in a Western society. But in a nation with state-controlled media, a broadly trusted government, and an incredible rate of economic growth the extent to which brutality will be overlooked would seem to increase. At least in the short run.


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ShumaGorath wrote:
Don't pull relativism into this. Relativism is relatively great compared to moralism or other philosophies that pretend to be better.

Relativism mirrors absolutism in that, when applied to strongly, it tends to have significant negative repercussions; though they're generally paralytic rather than driving. For example, when your relativistic beliefs lead you to question the right of people to make judgments, you've gone too far.

Relativism mirrors absolutism in that, when applied to strongly, it tends to have significant negative repercussions; though they're generally paralytic rather than driving. For example, when your relativistic beliefs lead you to question the right of people to make judgments, you've gone too far.

Yeah, but a relativist with an absolute belief in relativism is a bad relative. He's not being very relative about his belief in relativism which relatively should be relatively held relatively in relation to other philosophies that are viewed with a fairly relative relative relativity.

Well i figured , Chinese government isnt exactly naive.
They would have a very good reason to implement such a harsh law. Especially some thing that effects every single family...
Which of course can very easily have the populace lose trust and support to the government, which is all the government have atm.
Because im pretty sure the world now wouldnt let another Tienament Square incident happen again.

So i guess the immediate question is , China is already pretty over populated atm , more people then the country can find work for.
Without the policy , what is China going to do with the extra 300 million people?

To us westerners , yes such act is indeed barbaric and it takes away our basic human rights.
But like i said back in page 1 , different country different society. How does the people in China feel?

Remember most of China is still communist , the country cannot sustain to distribute "wealth" to 300 million extra in the population.

I dont know how many Mexicans are taking jobs away from Americans , but it seems to be enough of a concern to some.
Im just guessing , but it might not be as high as 300 million.

So i guess the ultimate question is from the chinese governments point of view:

a) Choose 1 child policy , have some complaints from the nation

b) No such policy , population explosion , country cannot sustain its people anymore
result? if i have to guess , it'll be atleast worse than choice A.

Again , im not saying its the best choice , nor do i claim it to be not abusing human rights.
But i'll ask again , what better ideas do you guys have?

You have to remember , China is still very much a 3rd world country in its rural areas.
natural disasters happen very often in asia , a very large amount of crops are destroyed every year.
Where to get the extra commodity or perhaps the most basic shelter for 300 million extra?

Well i figured , Chinese government isnt exactly naive.
They would have a very good reason to implement such a harsh law. Especially some thing that effects every single family...
Which of course can very easily have the populace lose trust and support to the government, which is all the government have atm.
Because im pretty sure the world now wouldnt let another Tienament Square incident happen again.

I don't see why the world wouldn't. It would be condemned surely, but it's not like anyone would do anything about it.

So i guess the immediate question is , China is already pretty over populated atm , more people then the country can find work for.
Without the policy , what is China going to do with the extra 300 million people?

What extra 300 million people? Over what time period? That would be an incredibly significant growth (about a 25% population increase in a single generation) and it's not very realistic. As for finding work, population density doesn't have much to do with that and china has been gaining jobs significantly faster than any uncontrolled population growth would have it growing people.

So i guess the ultimate question is from the chinese governments point of view:

a) Choose 1 child policy , have some complaints from the nation

b) No such policy , population explosion , country cannot sustain its people anymore
result? if i have to guess , it'll be atleast worse than choice A.

Thats not really how population statistics and population growth works. Without the policy (which hasn't been very effective) their population would be higher, but it's unlikely they would see a population "boom".

http://www.google.com/publicdata?ds=wb-wdi&met=sp_pop_grow&idim=country:CHN&dl=en&hl=en&q=chinese+population+growth#met=sp_pop_grow&idim=country:CHN:IND

Compare china and india for instance with relative population rise and fall and you see very similar trends.

So basically what you are saying is , you feel China can still sustain its population?

and will still be able to if 1 child policy isnt implemented?

LunaHound wrote:So basically what you are saying is , you feel China can still sustain its population?

and will still be able to if 1 child policy isnt implemented?

If you look at the graph i posted and you take the entire difference between chinese and indian population growth to be the one child per household laws than you've basically got a 1% difference in year over year growth attributable to the policy. 1.5% growth in india vs .5% growth in china. China can certainly sustain it's population. It's sustaining it. thats not even a relevant or sensical question, now if you want to know where the breaking point is I don't really know. That depends on chinas continued ability to modernize, but a 1% difference isn't particularly significant on the short term. By comparison the UK has the same level of population growth and population density as china and is doing perfectly fine and japan has a lower population growth and higher density and is in an extreme demographic crisis relating to a lack of new citizens.

It's all fairly relative, china needed less people when it was a nation of starving communists, now it's becoming an industrial powerhouse and is rapidly modernizing into a business center. Suddenly it can handle a standard rate of population growth just like the rest of the world. I don't personally think that the policies benefits outweigh its negatives, the demographic issues of raising a generation of males (as the laws are doing since males are the ones that carry on family names) and the social issues inherent in administering such laws are worth a 1% difference in population growth.

Well , i guess the rest of the world would enjoy having more Chinese slave labor to saturate the companies.

LunaHound wrote:Well , i guess the rest of the world would enjoy having more Chinese slave labor to saturate the companies.

Meh. Northern africa and indonesia are cheaper. Why would you even bother responding if all you're going to do is say that we would prefer slave labor? Did you just have nothing useful to say?

ShumaGorath wrote:

LunaHound wrote:Well , i guess the rest of the world would enjoy having more Chinese slave labor to saturate the companies.

Meh. Northern africa and indonesia are cheaper. Why would you even bother responding if all you're going to do is say that we would prefer slave labor? Did you just have nothing useful to say?

No , because:

1) With the condition they are in , its pretty much true its slave labor.

2) Its related because China is communist country , everyone needs a job.
Extra population = extra mouth to feed + need extra jobs .

This is why i bother responding. How rude of you shuma

LunaHound wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

LunaHound wrote:Well , i guess the rest of the world would enjoy having more Chinese slave labor to saturate the companies.

Meh. Northern africa and indonesia are cheaper. Why would you even bother responding if all you're going to do is say that we would prefer slave labor? Did you just have nothing useful to say?

No , because:

1) With the condition they are in , its pretty much true its slave labor.

2) Its related because China is communist country , everyone needs a job.
Extra population = extra mouth to feed + need extra jobs .

This is why i bother responding. How rude of you shuma

So you post something pointlessly contextless and inflammatory then support it with something contextless and inflammatory when called out on it. Firstly, communist doesn't mean everyone needs a job, it means the means of production are controlled by the people via the government. It has nothing to do with employment rates. Also thank you for the first grade explanation of population growth + peoples faces = needing food. It didn't actually elucidate anything everyone didn't already know, but it's nice you would think you need to explain that.

You responded because you dislike china. You have stated so in the past, and given you're from taiwan I certainly don't blame you. But that's not really a reason to talk about slave labor (chinese factory production has laws prohibiting the things you hear about on tv, the fact that they are bad at enforcing those laws doesn't mean that they don't exist). You asked about the chinese policymaking and what people thought of it, and I responded. You then replied with a blurb about chinese slaves being loved by the west.

Don't try and defend that.

ShumaGorath wrote:
So you post something pointlessly contextless and inflammatory then support it with something contextless and inflammatory when called out on it. Firstly, communist doesn't mean everyone needs a job, it means the means of production are controlled by the people via the government. It has nothing to do with employment rates. Also thank you for the first grade explanation of population growth + peoples faces = needing food. It didn't actually elucidate anything everyone didn't already know, but it's nice you would think you need to explain that.

You responded because you dislike china. You have stated so in the past, and given you're from taiwan I certainly don't blame you. But that's not really a reason to talk about slave labor (chinese factory production has laws prohibiting the things you hear about on tv, the fact that they are bad at enforcing those laws doesn't mean that they don't exist). You asked about the chinese policymaking and what people thought of it, and I responded. You then replied with a blurb about chinese slaves being loved by the west.

Don't try and defend that.

Nice try to start something shuma ,

1) Inflammatory? you are beyond naive if you dont know the condition of their work place. Recently there is a chinese supervisor beat to death because he wasnt allowing the workers to take longer breaks.

2) In our ideal world not everyone need a job (lol welfare) But in china its different. Everyone have to feel its fair or equal or else it wouldnt work.
Here you can read some slogan used by the population so you can easily understand their social mentality ( which is way different then your american ones obviously )
http://www.sacu.org/slogans.html

3) I dislike chinese government for the abusive things they do. Whats the big surprise shuma? Are you going to say im racist or something?
Yes im Taiwanese so what? that doesnt change the facts of the bad things Chinese government do.

4) Chinese have laws prohibiting such things? O-M-G , but hey , i guess the propaganda and media the government do does work wonders.
Yes... tell the truth about how horrible the workers are treated , lose work when other country's companies refuse to let such horrible condition go on...
Yes that would be so smart of the government.

Sorry , but i know you find the thread to be lacking something so i guess you expected me to spice it up ,
not falling for it this time.

1) Inflammatory? you are beyond naive if you dont know the condition of their work place. Recently there is a chinese supervisor beat to death because he wasnt allowing the workers to take longer breaks.

Amazing, we have stabbings over work matters in america all the time. Until you at some point do something other than provide anecdotal evidence you're just going to look silly. There are factories with terrible conditions in china, that's obvious. Those factories also violate laws when that happens. A child could see that it's not so black and white. I've had this conversation with you before though, and you don't use evidence or logic to back up assertions relating to places I don't think you've ever been too so I'm just going to stop arguing it after this post.

2) In our ideal world not everyone need a job (lol welfare) But in china its different. Everyone have to feel its fair or equal or else it wouldnt work.
Here you can read some slogan used by the population so you can easily understand their social mentality ( which is way different then your american ones obviously )

Amusingly enough anti communist and pro democracy beliefs are most prevalent in the universities and poor subsistence regions of china. People in china understand it's not fair, anyone incapable of getting a regional visa to move away from the poorer regions understands that.

3) I dislike chinese government for the abusive things they do. Whats the big surprise shuma? Are you going to say im racist or something?

You responded because you dislike china. You have stated so in the past, and given you're from taiwan I certainly don't blame you.

I'll bold things more often so that you don't miss them in the future.

Yes im Taiwanese so what? that doesnt change the facts of the bad things Chinese government do.

And yet you don't rush into the threads about russia or north africa with the same zeal.

Can we get back to the topic at hand now? Or were you just planning to tear into chinese factory troubles when you were asking about peoples ideal alternatives to the one child per household laws?

Amazing, we have stabbings over work matters in america all the time. Until you at some point do something other than provide anecdotal evidence you're just going to look silly. There are factories with terrible conditions in china, that's obvious. Those factories also violate laws when that happens. A child could see that it's not so black and white. I've had this conversation with you before though, and you don't use evidence or logic to back up assertions relating to places I don't think you've ever been too so I'm just going to stop arguing it after this post.

Whats silly is you. Expecting to know much about china from watching Fox News. Try talking to someone from china for once and have them explain to you with their experience first hand.
What governments publicize on the news the rest of the world watches everyday is not the truth of whats going on inside.

Amusingly enough anti communist and pro democracy beliefs are most prevalent in the universities and poor subsistence regions of china. People in china understand it's not fair, anyone incapable of getting a regional visa to move away from the poorer regions understands that.

And most of them will never be able to afford it.

You responded because you dislike china. You have stated so in the past, and given you're from taiwan I certainly don't blame you.

I'll bold things more often so that you don't miss them in the future.

Wrong , I came in this thread actually defending the Chinese government incase you havnt bothered reading from the beginning.
I came in this thread telling why i think the government chose such path , for the greater good of sustaining the population.

And yet you don't rush into the threads about russia or north africa with the same zeal.

I dont know anything about russia or africa , so nope cant rush it or have zeal.

Can we get back to the topic at hand now? Or were you just planning to tear into chinese factory troubles when you were asking about peoples ideal alternatives to the one child per household laws?

The slave labor i original wrote was to show the over abundance of the chinese work force and in horrible condition. Hence the 1 child policy.
You took it as im trying to insult china. ( doubtful )
because its pretty obvious im saying china doesnt need anymore extra population to take up job spots. Hence , on topic.
But of course you already know that didnt you?

Shuma doesn't watch Fox News. He watches MSNBC. Being liberal minded and all he watches liberal controlled television.

You know, the networks that doctor videos as badly as Fox News does (see the thread on the Apache/innocent news reporter video).

He's just trying to get a rise out of you Luna, don't take the bait.

Whats silly is you. Expecting to know much about china from watching Fox News. Try talking to someone from china for once and have them explain to you with their experience first hand.

Sure, I'll do it tomorrow. I already did yesterday. I suppose I'll probably be doing it all week actually, I go to school with a good number of chinese exchange kids and one of my friends from highschool is a chinese major that teaches english over there. As for the fox news quip, I'm pretty sure the slave labor parts are all fox every shows about china. Maybe you should stop watching it.

Wrong , I came in this thread actually defending the Chinese government incase you havnt bothered reading from the beginning.
I came in this thread telling why i think the government chose such path , for the greater good of sustaining the population.

Yes, but thats not why you responded to me. Your response about slave labor and western exploitation are what I was referring too. Please try and avoid making up issues to take with my posts.

And most of them will never be able to afford it.

Good to know you agreed with me and have changed your opinion on the issue.

I dont know anything about russia or africa , so nope cant rush it or have zeal.

You don't seem to know much about china either.

The slave labor i original wrote was to show the over abundance of the chinese work force and in horrible condition.
You took it as im trying to insult china. ( doubtful )
because its pretty obvious im saying china doesnt need anymore extra population to take up job spots.

Well , i guess the rest of the world would enjoy having more Chinese slave labor to saturate the companies.

No. No thats what you are saying now. You certainly didn't elucidate that point before.


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Shuma doesn't watch Fox News. He watches MSNBC. Being liberal minded and all he watches liberal controlled television.

Actually in every thread that has ever arisen about cable news i've mentioned that I don't watch cable news. Try and remember the conversations we've had before. Memory is as important as a mouth.

You know, the networks that doctor videos as badly as Fox News does (see the thread on the Apache/innocent news reporter video).

That video was doctored by whoever put it up on wikileaks and then was further doctored by a liberal website unrelated to the news networks. You don't have any idea what you're talking about. You never know what you're talking about. Stop posting. Forever.

He's just trying to get a rise out of you Luna, don't take the bait.

Well , i guess the rest of the world would enjoy having more Chinese slave labor to saturate the companies.

If I want to get a rise out of her I'll talk about how great forge world is or something. What I want to do is educate her a little bit so she doesn't always post inflammatory and emotional rants about chinese slave factories and communism.

Sure, I'll do it tomorrow. I already did yesterday. I suppose I'll probably be doing it all week actually, I go to school with a good number of chinese exchange kids and one of my friends from highschool is a chinese major that teaches english over there.

That is a very naive thing to base things on. To be able to be in the exchange program , their families are already better off then the rest of the rural populace.
Of course the condition they experience are not the same.

Yes, but thats not why you responded to me. Your response about slave labor and western exploitation are what I was referring too. Please try and avoid making up issues to take with my posts.

You read what you want to read. Its not western company's fault of their condition everyone naturally wants more for less. Its the chinese factories own schedule's fault. naturally forcing more work , for less rest.

You don't seem to know much about china either.

How rude , what i know is way more accurate with what you know.
Our company deals with chinese factory very often.

No. No thats what you are saying now. You certainly didn't elucidate that point before.

Thats what i have been saying all along , again with your intelligence i can only assume you are taking it the wrong way on purpose.

Are we done with the petty accusations?

Got to admit, Luna fights back harder than I do. Think I quit after a mere two exchanges between us yesterday Shuma.

Flashman wrote:Got to admit, Luna fights back harder than I do. Think I quit after a mere two exchanges between us yesterday Shuma.

Strength arises from ignorance.

So then Shuma, how does it feel to hold the world on your shoulders like Atlas?

LOL.

Wait, I don't understand what you guys are arguing over. Can you restate the controversy?

That is a very naive thing to base things on. To be able to be in the exchange program , their families are already better off then the rest of the rural populace.
Of course the condition they experience are not the same.

Well the highschool friend spent a year living in rural sichuan province but hey clearly your experience living in america gives you a better view of the situation than mine. You probably have a really nice telescope.

You read what you want to read.

No, I read your posts, which I really wish were based a little more on empirical evidence and fact than they are.

How rude , what i know is way more accurate with what you know.
Our company deals with chinese factory very often.

Neat. I worked with a dude at a local food mart for about a year who was an immigrant from yunnan. Good to know the telephone conversations you hear about second hand are better than the conversations I've had.

Thats what i have been saying all along , again with your intelligence i can only assume you are taking it the wrong way on purpose.

Are we done with the petty accusations?

God I hope so.


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Fateweaver wrote:So then Shuma, how does it feel to hold the world on your shoulders like Atlas?

LOL.

Pretty good. I'm keeping it up so that people like you can survive. It's heavy but at the end of the day I've got a good feeling of accomplishment.

Well, with all your ignorance you should be able to curl the world and not need to use your shoulders or back.

I survive fine without your help. Would probably survive even better without help from people like you, tyvm.

Mysterious double post.

Hmm, half tempted to start up yesterdays argument again to see if Shuma can debate two points at once without getting confused

It wasn't really an argument you seemed to be pro childbirth registration or control while the uk has a slight demographic issue concerning an aging population. The UK is actually far better off than japan or germany which are going to have horrible issues with it in a generation or two. I just thought it was an odd stance held more from a view of the right of the poor to have kids and "absorb dollars" rather than a reasoned view of how populations grow and where a nations workforce comes from.

Double post. Oh good work Flash.

Back on topic, can I ask again what the argument between Luna and Shuma is about? I read and re-read their respective posts and can't figure out what the substantive point in controversy is.

ShumaGorath wrote:

That is a very naive thing to base things on. To be able to be in the exchange program , their families are already better off then the rest of the rural populace.
Of course the condition they experience are not the same.

Well the highschool friend spent a year living in rural sichuan province but hey clearly your experience living in america gives you a better view of the situation than mine. You probably have a really nice telescope.

You read what you want to read.

No, I read your posts, which I really wish were based a little more on empirical evidence and fact than they are.

How rude , what i know is way more accurate with what you know.
Our company deals with chinese factory very often.

Neat. I worked with a dude at a local food mart for about a year who was an immigrant from yunnan. Good to know the telephone conversations you hear about second hand are better than the conversations I've had.

Thats what i have been saying all along , again with your intelligence i can only assume you are taking it the wrong way on purpose.

Are we done with the petty accusations?

God I hope so.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fateweaver wrote:So then Shuma, how does it feel to hold the world on your shoulders like Atlas?

LOL.

Pretty good. I'm keeping it up so that people like you can survive. It's heavy but at the end of the day I've got a good feeling of accomplishment.

TL;DR in other words you dismiss my facts and i dismiss your facts.
The only difference is you have to be rude about it.

Its beyond my comprehension how such behavior are tolerated.