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Since Mechanized is one of the more popular builds, why aren't Necrons a more popular force?
Is close combat (aided by the very mechanization many folks love) the problem?

Anybody playing reasonably competitive 'Crons?

Phase out inhibits the competitiveness of Necrons.

Mandatory two troop choices, of which warriors (and their mediocrity) are the only selection - at 18 points apiece, that's also an expensive commitment.

Lack of anti-tank. Gauss weapons can glance vehicles, but they're short range - and the only real long range firepower are incredibly expensive heavy destroyers, which can in turn be wiped out by long range firepower since your opponent's anti-tank has nothing to fire at except your heavy destroyers (or destroyers) and a monolith if you have one.

But wait! There's no reason to fire at the monolith; its a 360something point temporary obstacle when the real point is making you phase out. Best to simply ignore it and phase out the necrons. And you're right; they do suck in close combat.

privateer4hire wrote:Since Mechanized is one of the more popular builds, why aren't Necrons a more popular force?
Is close combat (aided by the very mechanization many folks love) the problem?

Anybody playing reasonably competitive 'Crons?

1. Next to no assault units and their other units have crap initiative. Combining this with no WBB to Sweeping advances and how much this edition is based around assault this is definitely not a good thing.

2. Destroying vehicles is hard for Crons. They can eventually glance vehicles to death but with the amount of vehicles around now you want to be destroying one or two a turn.

3. Necrons have no anti-cover weapons and no grenades making flushing units out of cover hard.

4. Phase out (self explanetory).

5. Most necron lists revolve around certain lynchpins (Res orb's, Spyders, Monolith). These may be either insanely tough (monolith), able to hide (lord) or be low on target priority (spyders) but monolith's are mainly ignored for phase out unless if there's a large amount of S10 weapons that can be dedicated to it, lords can be picked out easliy in assault and spyders are very, very fragile.

6. Very little mobility.

7. Some of the most powerfull units make phase out more likely (monolith, nightbringer, deciever) due to being expensive and not being necrons.

8. Codex creep : see 1, 2, 3, 7 + lack of psychic defense.

9(and the one that irks me the most). Very few people start on necrons (not that well known) and after hearing how bad they are from everyone else (who have likely faced necrons only rarely) they probably won't try them as a second army.

10. Lack of choice in the units (lacks other codex's "shiny syndrome").

Apparently the most competitive list uses two destroyer lords with the teleport thingys, monoliths, and res-orbs. The strategy with this list is to teleport next to and enemy, blast the hell out of them, and get away as quickly as possible. Also, the monoliths and resorbs make it more dificult for the necrons to stay dead.

O'shovah wrote:9(and the one that irks me the most). Very few people start on necrons (not that well known) and after hearing how bad they are from everyone else (who have likely faced necrons only rarely) they probably won't try them as a second army.

And this is a shame as i have always felt they are THE best starter race...simple to play, easy to paint...not terribly effective anymore...but thats supposed to be changing soon enough!

Phase out. Combat res rules.

Yeah, the Phasing out is the biggest hindrance. Also the fact that 'crons will get murdered in combat with a more assault-oriented army, and so rely heavily on shooting.

I had a friend who played Necrons and his lord was the only thing that kept his army in the fight each time i once had to kill it 3 times in 1 game.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:Yeah, the Phasing out is the biggest hindrance. Also the fact that 'crons will get murdered in combat with a more assault-oriented army, and so rely heavily on shooting.

The problem being that their shooting, both anti-infantry and anti-tank, is highly inefficient in 5th ed. You can't get the "glancing 6" vehicle destroyed result any more, and at 18 points a model bolters are not killing the enemy infantry fast enough to prevent them from reaching your lines. The units that *are* actually good are still overpriced. Compare a heavy destroyer to a hive guard and the necron player cries at how much better the nid unit is for cheaper, though they have comparable roles.

The first game I ever played was against Necrons. I was initially very intimidated by their shiny green guns (and the reputation for invincibility given them in the BL novels). Then my opponent's destroyers exploded and his warriors failed to bring nearly the pain I had feared. Oh, don't get me wrong. I still lost! It just wasn't nearly the humiliating defeat I expected as a first timer. The res-orb kept his troops around far longer than I'd have liked.

Dashofpepper wrote:There's no reason to fire at the monolith; its a 360something point temporary obstacle when the real point is making you phase out. Best to simply ignore it and phase out the necrons.

This is false. Only applies to close-combat phase-out tactics. Shooting simply wont work.

Ignoring the monolith and fighting a strong player; Dual WBB and the crazy amounts of hits a monolith or two can put out over a mech-heavy MSU army. Its too strong.

Close-combat phase out sure; Running down those squads is the way to kill necrons. If one remains standing you can diminish the effects of any form of attack to practically nothing (compared to the points spent removing the remaining downed models)

I see the problems with necrons is a general and complete weakness to assaults combined with either not having enough shooting firepower but remaining extremely tough and essentially ignoring phase-out or becoming prone to phase-out but retaining good mobile firepower.

Edit: In terms of phase-out via close-combat.. You would need a high-number of power attacks (or a very high no. of "normal attacks", i.e 50+). You would essentially have to kill 4-5 to have any real chance for the necron squad to fail its morale check (consistently) and run it down. If you kill 3 (at I higher than 2) the lord and remaining crons will kill one. This will win you the combat by 2, causing a LD to drop to 8.. Gaze of flame combined with MEQ works quite well.

I've read on another forum people hating on PO so much and how it needs to be removed for FNP in Necrons next 'Dex, blah blah blah hate hate hate PO. I like PO, it makes sense. Just increase the % from 75 to like 85 or 90%, imo (though, PO would probably never happen in that case...so...maybe i should re-think that).

I've always been a firm believer that in the right hands, any army can beat any army. Necrons don't "rule" b/c players don't take the time to master them and don't give them the benefit of the doubt of actually being a worthy army. I've read of good necron players (never seen one...b/c none exist at my FLGS!). Me? ...still learning

Necrons are much like Dark Eldar, not the easiest army to use, expensive models (Points and money), largely ignored by GW...

In the right hands, they are insanely hard to dispatch. The Monolith is either the sole focus of my fire or the standard warriors. I can't focus on anything else. Have to make them phase out or cripple their mobility by shattering the Monolith.

Also why Necrons don't do so well: No customizing.

Whereas standard troop choices of well, anybody can choose from a multitude of different wargear for different situations, the Necron Warriors get... gauss guns. Decent, but no variety. Want AT? Too bad, use Heavy Destroyers and the Monolith. Anti-infantry? Shenanigans with teleporting, coming back to life, and massed firepower. Or Destroyers.

Monolith just plain wins, but it is expensive. If used right remakes your whole army. If used wrong, is a waste of valuable phase out points, or it dies to AT fire like anything else.

What's this? A thread on Necrons and what makes them not good? Looks like another opportunity to spout my three point plan to make Necrons not suck!

1.) Change We'll Be Back into Feel No Pain. WBB is just an overly complicated rule that in the end has the same general effect as the MUCH simpler FNP. Yes, I'm sure "You" understand exactly how WBB works in all possible circumstances, but So Many people get the rule and all of it's interactions wrong So Often. Yes, FNP is a nerf to a couple unit's (mostly destroyers) durability from enemy shooting, but it's a buff to every unit's melee, as they'll get to make their attacks back after passing their saves, and melee is where we need the help.

2.) To further help Necrons in melee, without simply making them better at it, give all Necrons LD10, and an uber stubborn rule where they are Always and Forever LD10 and NOTHING can override or lower their LD to Anything other than LD10 for Any reason or purpose. OMG so Broken, right?! Keep reading...

3.) Phase Out. It's fluffy, but it really kills the army and the variety of units you can take as you constantly need to watch that Phase Out count. Instead put Phase Out on the Unit level, where if they fail a Moral Check, they Phase Out and the Unit is removed from the table, with no chance of coming back or saving, just gone. With the #2 change it'd be really hard to break `em, but when you do they suffer for it, and who wants to see robots running away in fear anyway?

3b.) A slight variance someone else mentioned that I liked. Since failing a single LD 10 check comes down to mere randomness, it could instead be made such that when you fail the LD check and break, you fall back normally. If on your next turn you fail to rally for any reason, THEN the unit Phases Out and is removed from the table.

Aduro wrote:What's this? A thread on Necrons and what makes them not good? Looks like another opportunity to spout my three point plan to make Necrons not suck!

1.) Change We'll Be Back into Feel No Pain. WBB is just an overly complicated rule that in the end has the same general effect as the MUCH simpler FNP. Yes, I'm sure "You" understand exactly how WBB works in all possible circumstances, but So Many people get the rule and all of it's interactions wrong So Often. Yes, FNP is a nerf to a couple unit's (mostly destroyers) durability from enemy shooting, but it's a buff to every unit's melee, as they'll get to make their attacks back after passing their saves, and melee is where we need the help.

2.) To further help Necrons in melee, without simply making them better at it, give all Necrons LD10, and an uber stubborn rule where they are Always and Forever LD10 and NOTHING can override or lower their LD to Anything other than LD10 for Any reason or purpose. OMG so Broken, right?! Keep reading...

3.) Phase Out. It's fluffy, but it really kills the army and the variety of units you can take as you constantly need to watch that Phase Out count. Instead put Phase Out on the Unit level, where if they fail a Moral Check, they Phase Out and the Unit is removed from the table, with no chance of coming back or saving, just gone. With the #2 change it'd be really hard to break `em, but when you do they suffer for it, and who wants to see robots running away in fear anyway?

3b.) A slight variance someone else mentioned that I liked. Since failing a single LD 10 check comes down to mere randomness, it could instead be made such that when you fail the LD check and break, you fall back normally. If on your next turn you fail to rally for any reason, THEN the unit Phases Out and is removed from the table.

I like these ideas a lot. The fnp thing makes sense in terms of the streamlining of 5th edition, though I do often miss the flavour of each army having unique special rules.

Necrons don't do well in tournaments for the same reason that Tau typically suffer. At least here in the US. Most tournaments have a massacre/major/minor/tie/loss sort of a setup. Necrons can win, but it's not often that they can achieve a massacre, especially in objective missions. The general suckitude that is the necron warrior means you really only ever want to take your obligatory 2 units of warriors. This prompts me to another point. Point level's. At 1500 pts I think you can get closer to a competative army. 2 troop choices isnt as much a hinderance, because most other armies will only have 3-4 at that level.

There are certain things that just don't make sense anymore. It used to be that the only way to instant death someone was to double there toughness the only exception to this was the d-cann, now enter the C'Tan. With Mephiston and bone sword wielding loonies around it's a lot easier to kill a c'tan. Actually I have yet to figure out how to counter Mephiston by a well played player. That one model will eat 4 squads over the course of a game and there isn't much you can do about it.

The monolith is still tough to kill but not as much as it used to be, it's actually a lot more vulnerable now. There are more armies with str10 weaponry and the changes to skimmers makes it easier to hit in hth and take out with dreadnaughts, wraithlords, etc.

In general things need to get a points reduction and some of the special rules need an update.

They just haven't aged as well as sister's.

Dashofpepper wrote:Phase out inhibits the competitiveness of Necrons.

Mandatory two troop choices, of which warriors (and their mediocrity) are the only selection - at 18 points apiece, that's also an expensive commitment.

Lack of anti-tank. Gauss weapons can glance vehicles, but they're short range - and the only real long range firepower are incredibly expensive heavy destroyers, which can in turn be wiped out by long range firepower since your opponent's anti-tank has nothing to fire at except your heavy destroyers (or destroyers) and a monolith if you have one.

But wait! There's no reason to fire at the monolith; its a 360something point temporary obstacle when the real point is making you phase out. Best to simply ignore it and phase out the necrons. And you're right; they do suck in close combat.

QFT. Most competitive Necron lists are based around trying to get you to fear units that don't matter. Ignore the Monolith, bring down units of 'Necron counting' models as quickly as possible, and watch the rest of the army disappear.

there are competitive cron lists, but they require a good degree of skill.


Close combat is the weakness for the Cron list.



Necrons have mediocre anti-tank abilities. the fact every guy glances on a 6+ with his gun is good, but glancing hits got nerfed so that makes any roll on the chart that isn't a 5 or a 6 nothing done.

the strongest gun they have is basically a Lascannon(Str9 AP2) on a expensive and fragile(but fast) platform makes their Longrange anti-tank iffy.

No melta gun equivilent means AV14 has nothing to fear.


Phase out is the biggest inhibitor.

the best Cron list i have seen was just posted recently here on dakka for 'Ard boyz.

basically it was 2 Destroyer lords, 4 units of 11 warriors, 3 squads of 5 Destroyers, and 3 squads of 3 heavy destroyers(IIRC)

all necrons means that phase out will be tough and a decent amount of anti-tank weapons means that transports can be popped before they get close.


it is rumored that Guass will be changed to rending in the next Dex. the only real instant fix for crons, but could be OP.

The monolith is 235 points. the nightbringer is 360 points. Probably confused the two. The heavy destroyer is hardly fragile, it is the small squad size that hinders them, but T5 isn't fragile.

If you can get pariahs into CC with a vehicle or the lord with warscythe into CC with a vehicle, you get 2d6 for pen. Same with the spyder and either c'tan.

Not to mention the 2d6 pick the highest for the particle whip, while not the best it is still better than 1d6. AV14 has plenty to fear in a proper necron army. The difficult thing about them is that you can almost never have all you need for every situation because everything IS so expensive.

And hey, I'll take anything on a glance because that at least means the next turn the armor isn't shooting at the very least. Maybe one gun with machine spirit.

I think phase out should stay how it is instead of on the unit level. I mean, if I am reduced to so few models that I will be phased out, I was probably going to lose anyway. I would much rather not lose my full strength squad in turn two because I failed one roll and there was some random jump troop next to me next turn.

ok bio-merc's turn and necrons are my main squeeze so lets see if someone can be persuaded into my views on my necrons.

1) i don't think that necrons suck in close combat, now i know that they only have one attack and such but when push comes to shove it's there resistance to injury that keeps them in combat FOREVER. that's why they need to be teleported out of it combat a lot.

2) all necrons have leadership 10 already but i agree that they would benefit from stubborn or something, i also agree with feel no pain, and getting rid of phase out.

3) with some more weapon options they would be amazing, some more templates, and anti-infanty and tank focused units would be awesome.

when i play my necrons i actually win a majority of my games it's really all about co-ordination and hitting this with that and making the best use out of your necron lord(s). i also don't use anything that doesn't benefit from the necron special rule so phase out is kept to a minimum. i really like playing necrons and they are my favorite army to play, i think that in a few tweaks in the new codex will really benefit them in the long run.

The biggest problem is that Necrons aren't really an army. I mean, think about it - they have 1 infantry model range, 1 vehicle and one "special character" (lord) that everybody take. The rest is just piddly little nonsense that no one takes (except maybe a destroyer here and there) I mean, KROOT have a more comprehensive army than necron do.

As such, the lack of diversity means they have no ability to specialize whatsoever. This means, unsurprisingly, that they're bad against everything.

This was passable, I suppose, back in 4th ed. But it relied on broken rules like the inability to pick out ICs not in squads, and that monoliths got SMF, and that you could kill vehicles with glances (and that nobody understood how WBB worked). Once 5th ed came along and unbroke a lot of those crappy rules, this pretty much left Necron with nothing.

As such, you pretty much have no choice but to wait for the next codex just like Guard had to wait in order to be anywhere near competitive in KP missions.

I assume that in the next codex they will give Necron some competent assault units and something resembling special weapons. That and, like everyone else, they will get de-fluffed. This means a monolith that costs half points but no longer gets to teleport squads and no longer gets living metal, and a total stripping of WWB. Expect this to be replaced with warriors that get a slight increase in points cost but get rending, feel no pain, and fearless.

Until then, you're basically stuck teleporting units by one means or another into the middle of enemy lines and then getting insta-splatted by vindicator/defiler/anything imperial guard cannons or getting assaulted by a dedicated assault unit and similarly wiped out in one turn.

You must have played some very bad necron players to have such a bad (and wrong) view of them.

Sure. That said, I've also read a lot of battle reports, and it always looks like Necron players bring basically 1 list, with a few minor variants. As such, by your assertion, almost ALL Necron players are bad (which I would be willing to believe, actually).

Perhaps what they need, then, is the ability for bad players to make decent lists, rather than the good players taking the one good list, and the bad players taking the one bad list. I mean, it's just like DE or sisters, except that they didn't rely on broken 4th ed rules to have any sort of effectiveness.

Well the fact you say no one takes anything beyond warriors, lord and monolith is just wrong. Almost no one fields pariahs though as they're basically useless fodder that just gets killed right away because they're not necrons. They're way too expensive for how useless they are. And any list, no matter how good it is, can be bad if run with horrible tactics. Terrain plays a huge factor in necron fights as well.

But I see plenty of people on here taking varied lists. But it's hardly full of units that "do nothing". Heck, immortals should be a staple unit in every army as they are tougher than warriors, have a stronger gun and it's assault 2 rather than rapid fire. Anyone that loads their army up with just warriors is asking to fail, plain and simple. I lost a lot with my necrons when all I had was the starter battle kit thing. Now that I have at least 1 full squad of every unit, my win/loss ratio is pretty decent, for me anyway, and my losses are always very close instead of crushing defeat now.

I know people constantly say "I ignore the lith and go for the guys to force phase out" but if you can't get to guys or see them to shoot 'em, then that falls short too. It all depends on the player and the terrain. Unfortunately I feel you haven't played a decent necron player. I'm guessing the guys you play usually just try to rush you and hit you with firepower before assaulting, and that's just death.

*edit*
I will give you one thing though, anything below 1500 pts is going to be the same boring list for necrons because we're forced to take 460 pts of models MINIMUM. So if all you have seen are 500 and 1000 pt battles, yes you're going to see the same stupid list over and over. At 1500+ though things start to get interesting.

Necrons needs troops that have special/heavy weapon options and upgraded squad leaders. They need another Troop option rather than Warriors, and the Warriors in the next codex either need to be buffed or made less expensive.

warriors are already MEQ except initiative. The issues lies with the prevalence of AP3 and cover save ignoring blast weapons.

I agree that we should have another troop choice, I FEAR they will make flayed ones a troop choice. And that is hardly good news. I agree that warriors should cost less or have a lower minimum squad size.

MEQ except Initiative, and the lack of squad leaders and special/heavy weapons.

Heh, true, but since all their weapons can glance/wound on a 6 regardless of AV/Toughness I'd say they're pretty special. Necrons as a whole need more AP3. It would be nice if destroyers were heavy 2 AP 3 instead of heavy 3 AP 4.

Destroyers should be the Attack bikes of the Necron Army.

Give them a standard armament and allow them to pick from other weapons and a few upgrades. Make Destroyers Fast Attack, but allow one squad to be taken as Troops in the presence of a Destroyer Lord.