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One of the biggest problems my friends have is that the rules for glancing are much less effective. No there's basically no way you can destroy the vehicle. That has really hurt the effectiveness of gauss weaponry. And do we need to talk about sweeping advance again? With an average I of 2 it's almost impossible to NOT get swept.

Grunt_For_Christ wrote:One of the biggest problems my friends have is that the rules for glancing are much less effective. No there's basically no way you can destroy the vehicle. That has really hurt the effectiveness of gauss weaponry. And do we need to talk about sweeping advance again? With an average I of 2 it's almost impossible to NOT get swept.

/sarcasm on

You silly, silly person.

Necrons being swept in CC resolution only happens to 'non-experienced' necron commanders that are playing to win, not the 'experienced' necron commanders who are playing not to lose!

/sarcasm off

I have yet to see any other solution offered other than vague ideas and 'you just can't trade WBB for FNP'.

imweasel wrote:

Grunt_For_Christ wrote:One of the biggest problems my friends have is that the rules for glancing are much less effective. No there's basically no way you can destroy the vehicle. That has really hurt the effectiveness of gauss weaponry. And do we need to talk about sweeping advance again? With an average I of 2 it's almost impossible to NOT get swept.

/sarcasm on

You silly, silly person.

Necrons being swept in CC resolution only happens to 'non-experienced' necron commanders that are playing to win, not the 'experienced' necron commanders who are playing not to lose!

/sarcasm off

I have yet to see any other solution offered other than vague ideas and 'you just can't trade WBB for FNP'.

You mean something other than just ignoring the sweeping advance rule altogether or the infinite WBB vs. FNP debate?

imweasel wrote:

Monolith makes a 'dangerous death charge zone'? Sure the pie plate can hurt, but only if I roll a one on my consolidation roll after I killed your squad.

You put the monolith in front of the troops, and you would need to roll more then a 1 to avoid it.

imweasel wrote:
Pariahs a threat? PUHLEEZE. You shoot them. They have a 3+ armor save with no WBB and can't be teleported. Take a turn to shoot them, soften them up and then take your licks and squish them if you have to. However, with them being completely foot slogging
with zero mobility I would just prefer to outmaneuver them. At 36pts a pop, they simply are not worth it over immortals. Especially as an assault deterrent.

You can't shoot with thunderhammers?

imweasel wrote:
Blocking off a section of the board to limit the necrons already limited mobility in a mobile, mechanized game? Playing not to lose is not a valid strategy, imho. I prefer to play to win.

Sure? Even if you block off a board section, a necron player should be able to properly turtle-march

imweasel wrote:
As far as shooting a land raider with destroyers to immobilize it, it will take 2 squads of 5 destroyers to have an acceptable chance to immobilize it, assuming no cover.

Either the immortals or the Str 9 ap 1 ordinance, either way, that LR isnt too difficult to deal with.

imweasel wrote:
So how do you stop two reliably? Simply hope someone only takes one in their list?

LR = 250 pts (Slightly less for BAs dropping packs and less then that for chaos but the majority will be around 250 pts)

Monolith = 235 pts.

imweasel wrote:
And just how do you propose to take a fairly poorly written rule (WBB) and 'incorporate' something that prevents sweeping advances from happening?

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:Easy fix for necrons: Change the "Necron" special rule to be similar to the "Daemon" special rule. Trade "Daemonic Rivalry" for "We'll be back". The Eternal warrior from the new "Necron" keeps the 2x tough from blocking WBB. The Fearless from the new "Necron" keeps them from getting SAed to the void.

Also, all models in the army (Besides Scarab Swarms) count towards Phase Out.

Spyders count as 3 models (for PO only)

Monoliths count as 5 models (for PO only)

C'tan count as 10 models (for PO only)

The Grog wrote:

It takes 9 gauss shots to get one damage result. So you have a 25% chance of a full size Destroyer unit immobilizing a vehicle.

Unless that vehicle belongs to an Ork or Dark Eldar player, then they are also probably open topped.

The Grog wrote:
Considering that any unit in the SM list can beat Warriors and Destroyers in close combat reliably (even if only by 1-2) if they have a powerfist, you must not play against mech often. Or Orks. Or Tyranids. So, SM, BA, BT, SW, DA, Orks, Tyranids, and DE all threaten close combat. That's what, only 70% of players? Plus IG blobs and Banshees on occasion. All deadly threats if they reach you. What if you have to advance? What if you have objectives into the opposing deployment zone? What if the opponent uses his vastly superior mech maneuverability to simply rush your infantry with transports? If you had made these claims in 4th, you'd have a point. This is 5th.

I play against mech, often, and while Cron's isnt my favorite list (Recently, I have been playing them extensively, since the rumors that they were due in 2010 proved false, I've been attempting a fandex for our group) current necron's do have some ways of dealing with many of the issues presented , but by no means am I attempting to claim they are 100% 5th edition Viable, and again I will state, repacing WBB with FNP is not the appropriate solution to the problems they do have...

But, just for fun...

Advancing? Let the Monolith lead.

Objectives? Use Wraiths/Destroyers for last turn contesting, Shroud an open one with your lord + warriors.

Mech rush? Start as far back as possible to prevent 1st (and in many cases 2nd) turn assaults. Always choose to go second if you can. Retreat and fire until most melee threats/chargers are dealt with, move accordingly.

Banshee's? A bad day for most lists, even meq lists don't like them too much. Shoot them, shoot them dead!

Guard Blob? Monolith

The assault termis don't have to if they have a non-termi character with them.

This is not how it works as far as RAW. ICs move as slow as their unit. The rules for ICs in assault state they return to normal rules for being in the unit immediatly after combat results (before the moral check) so unless you had a Termi squad, an IC, and a squad that was not termi that the IC was joined, the IC could not SA.

But again, as stated, WBB -> FNP is not as appropriate as say... making Crons Fearless

Grunt_For_Christ wrote:You mean something other than just ignoring the sweeping advance rule altogether or the infinite WBB vs. FNP debate?

I suppose you could simply give necrons stubborn and call it good.

However, I think it would be more expensive than fnp, especially on L10 models.

Personally, I like my suggestion (made earlier in this thread) just fine, which was a combination of FNP and WBB. Meh.

Well I guess we'll be seeing pretty soon which it is, right?

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:You put the monolith in front of the troops, and you would need to roll more then a 1 to avoid it.

There you go again, placing even more limitation on the necrons mobility and playing not to lose.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:You can't shoot with thunderhammers?

Yes. And you sound like that's the only unit a space marine army takes at 2000 points.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:Sure? Even if you block off a board section, a necron player should be able to properly turtle-march

This is a joke, right? Turtle march across a board? What do you do in a DoW scenario or more than 2 objectives? Just give up?

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:Either the immortals or the Str 9 ap 1 ordinance, either way, that LR isnt too difficult to deal with.

Yes, because templates are such an accurate anti-tank weapon. And I believe that unless you are like another poster in this thread, we have already gone over the odds of using glances to deal with land raiders.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:LR = 250 pts (Slightly less for BAs dropping packs and less then that for chaos but the majority will be around 250 pts)

Monolith = 235 pts.

So? I know the points cost for the units involved. Is there some point to this?

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:Easy fix for necrons: Change the "Necron" special rule to be similar to the "Daemon" special rule. Trade "Daemonic Rivalry" for "We'll be back". The Eternal warrior from the new "Necron" keeps the 2x tough from blocking WBB. The Fearless from the new "Necron" keeps them from getting SAed to the void.

Also, all models in the army (Besides Scarab Swarms) count towards Phase Out.

Spyders count as 3 models (for PO only)

Monoliths count as 5 models (for PO only)

C'tan count as 10 models (for PO only)

So your proposal is to make a necron warrior somewhere north of a grey knight on points? Ummm...ok...I suppose

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:Unless that vehicle belongs to an Ork or Dark Eldar player, then they are also probably open topped.

Ummm...I don't think necrons will want to be facing multiple av14 armor with d6 str10 ramming attacks with 4+ cover saves or multiple str9 pf attacks hitting on a 4+. I suppose you could at least make the 3+ dodge roll from the deff rollas...

DE would simply ignore the monoliths and shoot their way to phase out.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:I play against mech, often, and while Cron's isnt my favorite list (Recently, I have been playing them extensively, since the rumors that they were due in 2010 proved false, I've been attempting a fandex for our group) current necron's do have some ways of dealing with many of the issues presented , but by no means am I attempting to claim they are 100% 5th edition Viable, and again I will state, repacing WBB with FNP is not the appropriate solution to the problems they do have...

No, your idea is to make them cost somewhere in the vicinity of 25-30pts for a warrior.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:But, just for fun...

Advancing? Let the Monolith lead.

Objectives? Use Wraiths/Destroyers for last turn contesting, Shroud an open one with your lord + warriors.

Mech rush? Start as far back as possible to prevent 1st (and in many cases 2nd) turn assaults. Always choose to go second if you can. Retreat and fire until most melee threats/chargers are dealt with, move accordingly.

Banshee's? A bad day for most lists, even meq lists don't like them too much. Shoot them, shoot them dead!

Guard Blob? Monolith

You can use the monolith lead for certain armies, but vs others it's just death for the monolith.

Your 'contest' idea is assuming that you get to go second without the repercussions of going second.

Mech rush? I suppose there really is no better solution for necrons.

Banshees's? Bad day for most lists? Uhhh...not really.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:But again, as stated, WBB -> FNP is not as appropriate as say... making Crons Fearless

And that's where necrons would be left with, either fearless or stubborn if the flawed WBB rule is left in place. I suppose that might be the cheapest way to go.

I don't get where the 25-30 points per model is coming from by taking the Daemon special rule... the Daemons troops have all those same things (fearless, eternal warrior) and cost Significantly less then 25-30 points (in some ways, their invul save is better then the armor. And Plague-bearers are T5 FNP with EW and Fearless for 15 points each, and they wound on a 4+ regardless of Toughness.

Adding the "model count" to the other units just simply makes Phase out more difficult.

...is this really the time and place for this discussion? No, the OP only wanted to know why necrons aren't an overly feasible army. If you want to continue this little 'discussion' you two are having, I recommend starting a new discussion, before the admins get involved.

If you block off the front of your army with Monoliths, how are you killing the enemy army as you are now not able to shoot at them?

Aduro wrote:If you block off the front of your army with Monoliths, how are you killing the enemy army as you are now not able to shoot at them?

The Monoliths have pretty nasty guns on them, and the Destroyers don't really need to be blocked since they can move pretty fast and get WBB from the vast majority of shooting. Also, the C'Tan shouldn't be hiding!

Warriors are really for holding objectives in my games. The killing is done by the rest of the army, unless an opportunity arises for the Warriors to pick on really weak units like Fire Warriors or Guardsmen without power weapons.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:I don't get where the 25-30 points per model is coming from by taking the Daemon special rule... the Daemons troops have all those same things (fearless, eternal warrior) and cost Significantly less then 25-30 points (in some ways, their invul save is better then the armor. And Plague-bearers are T5 FNP with EW and Fearless for 15 points each, and they wound on a 4+ regardless of Toughness.

Adding the "model count" to the other units just simply makes Phase out more difficult.

I'm guessing that fearless on troop units probably would not be on the cheap side. Demon troopers have numerous things to help offset that cost.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Krellnus wrote:...is this really the time and place for this discussion? No, the OP only wanted to know why necrons aren't an overly feasible army. If you want to continue this little 'discussion' you two are having, I recommend starting a new discussion, before the admins get involved.

We are discussing the reasons behind why some folks think necrons are 'ok' and why some 'don't'.

It's key to the discussion.

So, stepping away from the sweeping advance and FNP vs WBB issues, what do you propose for dealing with large amounts of heavy firepower. For instance, facing a manticore, a couple units of medusas, 2 psycher battle squads, 2 masters of ordnance, valks and vendettas with lascannons and rocket pods, and squads full of guys with melta weapons, flamers, and demo charges. Or when 3 squads of flamers of tzeentch DS in and wipe out 3 squads. Yeah, lots of people are having troubles with them right now, but without transports to at least take the first hit, necrons are a bit more vulnerable than other MEQs, and just about anyone else with a transport for that matter. And neither FNP or WBB, res orb or not, helps much when none of your squads are still standing.

Man, imweasel you're a major hater.

Fine, give necrons atsknf or something similar so they can't be sa (like every sm). Or stubborn. No fearless.

As for whether they're a good army or not, there are plenty of people doing well with them. You can't accept or believe that? Or you're just better tban the opponents they play against?

Just go play the game and enjoy it and let others do the same. I believe that is actually raw as well.

I do good with Necrons because my sheer awesomeness is almost enough to override the suckyness of the Codex!

...

...

More seriously, the book needs an update something fierce. Playing Necrons is handicapping yourself if for no other reason than Phase Out. You can debate the warrants of FNP vs WBB all day, but regardless of which rule is in it, they need a new book. As I mentioned somewhere else, I would love it even if all we got was a PDF Codex with nothing new in it, just to update the rules/points costs to something more in line with current books.

Aduro wrote:I do good with Necrons because my sheer awesomeness is almost enough to override the suckyness of the Codex!

It works for Eldar players. They've been saying that since 4th Edition, God Falcons and all.

The Codex isn't that bad. Internet Theoryhammer is really the main reason you don't see them played as much.

Its also becuase there is hardly any choice in the code

WHAT DO YOU MEAN I CAN TAKE WARRIORS

WHAT DO YOU MEAN I CAN TAKE DESTROYERS

OMG A MONOLITH

A NECRON LORD

A CTAN

A SCARAB

AND AND and and...............

Monster Rain wrote:

Aduro wrote:I do good with Necrons because my sheer awesomeness is almost enough to override the suckyness of the Codex!

It works for Eldar players. They've been saying that since 4th Edition, God Falcons and all.

The Codex isn't that bad. Internet Theoryhammer is really the main reason you don't see them played as much.

And the reason that all the gamers I know who don't peruse internet forums are allowing their necrons to rot away on the shelves...

It's easy to draw a conclusion from a correlation (internet users say necrons suck==> people don't play necrons) however that conclusion is probably not true in this case. People don't play Necrons for many different reasons, and one of those reasons is that it's very hard to win with Necrons against a decent player with a decent list.

It's possible to win with Necrons, as with any other army. It just is an uphill climb through thorn bushes, rabid cats and listening to your little cousin explain why Twilight is such an amaaaaaazing boooook.

Kurgash wrote:It's possible to win with Necrons, as with any other army. It just is an uphill climb through thorn bushes, rabid cats and listening to your little cousin explain why Twilight is such an amaaaaaazing boooook.

Suddenly, I feel like nothing I could possibly add to this thread could be put into a more cohesive summary. QFT.

ChocolateGork wrote:Its also becuase there is hardly any choice in the code

WHAT DO YOU MEAN I CAN TAKE WARRIORS

WHAT DO YOU MEAN I CAN TAKE DESTROYERS

OMG A MONOLITH

A NECRON LORD

A CTAN

A SCARAB

AND AND and and...............

You forgot the PARIAHS and FLAYED ONES, oh wait, they aren't too good anyway, mainly that pariahs are not "necrons". Continue...

Necrons as a whole don't "suck", they're just not on an even playing field as most the rest of the book.

Monolith is a good model to have, 235 points and it beats the land raider at 250

Phase wrote:Monolith is a good model to have, 235 points and it beats the land raider at 250

That will likely change with the new codex but it will probably have new rules as well.

phantommaster wrote:That will likely change with the new codex ...

Last I heard, Dark Eldar were next in line for a Codex Update, which of course means GW will never be updating any of the codexes ever again. (As per track record)