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destroyers ARE fast attack.

Grey Templar wrote:it is rumored that Guass will be changed to rending in the next Dex. the only real instant fix for crons, but could be OP.

We have actually tried this (and WBB -> FNP, add Fearless). In our games so far, this hasn't overpowered the Necrons (played against Space Marines, Eldar and Imperial Guard). Obviously, against the Eldar Wave Serpents, the Rending change didn't matter. Against the other Vehicles, this change gave the Necrons the much needed Vehicle Destroying capability. Sure, Destroyers become pretty good Vehicle destructors with this change, but there are units in some of the newer codici that are even better for their points.

Ignoring Feel no Pain with any AP1 or AP2 ranged weaponry (in addition to the regular WBB ignoring weaponry) makes the Necrons less survivable against shooting. Fearless coupled with teleporting through the Monolith could obviously become a problem for armies that are geared towards close combat.

ooo no.

fearless would make them suck even more in CC.

they aren't CC units and will lose CC more often then not.

then they will take fearless wounds and more will die.

Stubborn is better.

necrons will afterall retreat if the situatuion is bad.

Kevin949 wrote:destroyers ARE fast attack.

Yes, I know. My post was confusing because I deleted the part of my post where I said that they should get rid of H. Destroyers, and give the Destroyers some heavier weapon options and make that Destroyer/Heavy Destroyer "hybrid" a Fast Attack.

I deleted that part of my post because I have no ideas for what would replace the H. Destroyer in the HS slot. But it would be a good opportunity to come up with a new unit for the Necrons.

Airmaniac wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:it is rumored that Guass will be changed to rending in the next Dex. the only real instant fix for crons, but could be OP.

We have actually tried this (and WBB -> FNP, add Fearless). In our games so far, this hasn't overpowered the Necrons (played against Space Marines, Eldar and Imperial Guard). Obviously, against the Eldar Wave Serpents, the Rending change didn't matter. Against the other Vehicles, this change gave the Necrons the much needed Vehicle Destroying capability. Sure, Destroyers become pretty good Vehicle destructors with this change, but there are units in some of the newer codici that are even better for their points.

Ignoring Feel no Pain with any AP1 or AP2 ranged weaponry (in addition to the regular WBB ignoring weaponry) makes the Necrons less survivable against shooting. Fearless coupled with teleporting through the Monolith could obviously become a problem for armies that are geared towards close combat.

Fearless sucks, I don't want that crap on my crons. Also, I presume you mean AP1, AP2, AND AP3 weapons. But this is what I like about WBB, AP1/2/3 weapons don't negate WBB unless they're double the toughness of the model. this is also why I don't want FNP on crons.


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D'Ork wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:destroyers ARE fast attack.

Yes, I know. My post was confusing because I deleted the part of my post where I said that they should get rid of H. Destroyers, and give the Destroyers some heavier weapon options and make that Destroyer/Heavy Destroyer "hybrid" a Fast Attack.

I deleted that part of my post because I have no ideas for what would replace the H. Destroyer in the HS slot. But it would be a good opportunity to come up with a new unit for the Necrons.

Gotcha. And uhm, the rumored Walker unit could fill up that heavy support slot. *shady eyes*

AP1 and AP2 weapons negate WBB, IIRC.

they do it to FNP.

Yes, as does AP3 for units that have a save of 3. I think the FNP rule stated AP1 and AP2 specifically because NOTHING can [Armor] save against those, but I believe anything that doesn't allow an armor save doesn't allow FNP. But I don't have the rulebook in front of me at the moment and I don't deal with FNP on a regular basis, so I might be wrong. But I remember it operated almost identically to WBB with the exception of it happening immediately instead of the following turn and anything that negated an armor save negated FNP (making it worse than WBB).

no

AP3 and up doesn't stop FnP or WBB.

but weapons that inflict instant death do.

I can't think of a weapon off the top of my head (other than hotshot lasguns) that is both AP3 and S7 or less.

Plasma pistol is Str7 and AP3.

And I didn't say AP3 stopped WBB, only FNP. How so does it not stop FNP though, I thought it wasn't allowed if you didn't get an armor save?

The colossus fires a str6 ap3 large blast I think maybe ap2. There's also the flamestorm cannon on the redeemer and the bhall, that's str6 ap3. The avenger librarian power. Tau rail rifles (the things on the sniper drones and pathfinder squads). Are str6 ap3

Lord + orb, gaze of flame x 2

Monolith x 2

Necrons x 30

0-3 Heavy destroyers

0-6 Wraiths

= 1500pts

A bit of variation there but the above is what a friend of mine plays and it is extremely hard to beat. Last time I played I vaporised 3 heavy destroyers first turn (just) but then failed to take down even one monolith. I had no real option to CC his troops and I could not get him to phase out. Objectives were covered. How could you critique that list, besides mentioning its lack of deadly firepower?

FNP is only negated by, Power weapons, weapons with a Str double the victums T value, AP2 and AP1 weapons.

WBB is the same way.


WBB is different in that you roll at the end of the turn instead of after failed armor saves.

WBB is not negated by AP1 or AP2 weapons, ONLY by CC weapons that don't allow armor saves or weapons that are double toughness.

So for instance if my particle whip hit my immortal dead on, it's a str9 ap1 hit, he would still get his WBB because it is not double his toughness. Nowhere in WBB rule does it talk about AP1 or AP2 weapons negating it.


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Razerous wrote:Lord + orb, gaze of flame x 2

Monolith x 2

Necrons x 30

0-3 Heavy destroyers

0-6 Wraiths

= 1500pts

A bit of variation there but the above is what a friend of mine plays and it is extremely hard to beat. Last time I played I vaporised 3 heavy destroyers first turn (just) but then failed to take down even one monolith. I had no real option to CC his troops and I could not get him to phase out. Objectives were covered. How could you critique that list, besides mentioning its lack of deadly firepower?

If it works for him, why critique it? Would I take that list? Probably not, but I don't like taking that many warriors against the armies I usually fight because they just get eaten alive by MEQ.

The last 1500pt army I took was -
1 lord, Res Orb, Phase Shifter, Gaze of Flame, Phylactery

20 Warriors (2 squads, obviously)

2 liths

10 immortals

4 destroyers

Lord stuck by the immortals the entire time, both squads of warriors stayed in cover (this was a doubles game, FYI, so it wasn't just me else my tactics would have been different).

*edit*
Hm, I remember doing the math previously and it came out to 1500 pts exactly, but when I do it now it's coming out to 1510. Damn.

The simple fix for the FNP, is make the Res orb, allow FNP no matter what.

True, and it probably will IF they get FNP, though the rumor mill is that WBB isn't going away. Take that for what it's worth though, ya know? Personally, not speculating on what will/won't change in the next codex. I like my crons the way they are now but I know they need some love. They're still fun to play and watch my opponents frustration when at the end of turn 4 they realize they haven't downed a squad yet.

Kevin949 wrote:Plasma pistol is Str7 and AP3.

Plasma pistol is S7 AP2.

Thanks for the fix.

Razerous wrote:Lord + orb, gaze of flame x 2

Monolith x 2

Necrons x 30

0-3 Heavy destroyers

0-6 Wraiths

Yeah, see, this is the one list that I see every time with slight variations (usually I see with veil rather than gaze). Every time it phases out after a few ordnance blasts get thrown around or the first serious bout of close combat. The only way you can lose to this is if you forgot to bring anti-MEq, and last I checked, that was the one thing that almost NO list forgets to bring.

If this is clearly the loser list, I'm actually curious to see a real, winning one.

lord+orb+veil of darkness
lord+orb+destroyer body+ warscythe + nightmare shroud

warriors x18
warriors x18

destroyers x4
destroyers x4
flayed ones x8

heavy destroyers x2
heavy destroyers x2
heavy destroyers x2

2000 points

this is the list i've been trying to finish up i've playedd a few games on proxy (soooo unhappy about that because i hate to proxy), but it actually does pretty well from what i've seen.

... but like all other necron lists, basically all you need to do is kill the warriors and the list phases out. It barely needs to be mentioned that veiling can get half of your warriors killed with a single bad teleport at worst, and puts it in a easy-to-pie-plate circle at best.

Sadly, Ailaros is mostly right.

Necrons depended on high LD and low penalties for losing melee combat to stick around and get WBB/teleports in.

Doesn't work that way anymore.

Necrons depended on good damage from glancing hits on vehicles.

Doesn't work that way anymore.

Necrons depended on the slowness of their troops choices to not matter much.

You know the refrain.

Not like they ever had any units that were actually good at melee besides the Deciever.

well this is all true but in reality, is anything in life really fool proof ? 36, S4, SV 3+, characters with basically feel no pain takes a lot to kill. i would also like to mention that while my opponent is trying to do this i'm bringing the heat with VERY fast destroyers and outflanking flayed ones. i don't know about you but enemies tend to always freak out and start shooting to kill at all costs something that is coming from your flank.

additionally, necron warriors can shoot up to 24 inches so i can afford to veil into the middle of nowhere to make my scatters as safe as possible since scatter is 12 inches at absoloute maximum, i usually only use the veil for if i end up in CC, and if i'm in CC then risking the scatter if FAR better than braving round after round of close combat, which will make my squad useless. it's a win win how i use it anyway.

as for pie plates, they scatter too and although it's not the most pristene strategy i'd like to point out the 36 T4 FNP wounds with 3+ saves to boot not many large blast templates have AP3 in there characteristic (i think IG is the only army i've seen with one). like i said before no army is without it's own issues and nothing is perfect. a level head will realize that and make the best use it.

Gavo wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:Plasma pistol is Str7 and AP3.

Plasma pistol is S7 AP2.

Fixed it so you don't sound so pretentious about it. But yes, sorry, my mistake. But my point from previous still stands.

Bio-Merc91207 wrote:well this is all true but in reality, is anything in life really fool proof ? 36, S4, SV 3+, characters with basically feel no pain takes a lot to kill. i would also like to mention that while my opponent is trying to do this i'm bringing the heat with VERY fast destroyers and outflanking flayed ones. i don't know about you but enemies tend to always freak out and start shooting to kill at all costs something that is coming from your flank.

additionally, necron warriors can shoot up to 24 inches so i can afford to veil into the middle of nowhere to make my scatters as safe as possible since scatter is 12 inches at absoloute maximum, i usually only use the veil for if i end up in CC, and if i'm in CC then risking the scatter if FAR better than braving round after round of close combat, which will make my squad useless. it's a win win how i use it anyway.

as for pie plates, they scatter too and although it's not the most pristene strategy i'd like to point out the 36 T4 FNP wounds with 3+ saves to boot not many large blast templates have AP3 in there characteristic (i think IG is the only army i've seen with one). like i said before no army is without it's own issues and nothing is perfect. a level head will realize that and make the best use it.

CSM has a battle cannon wielding walker (FYI that weapon is way OP if you ask me) as well. But ya, other necrons/guard/CSM I don't know...


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Ailaros wrote:

Razerous wrote:Lord + orb, gaze of flame x 2

Monolith x 2

Necrons x 30

0-3 Heavy destroyers

0-6 Wraiths

Yeah, see, this is the one list that I see every time with slight variations (usually I see with veil rather than gaze). Every time it phases out after a few ordnance blasts get thrown around or the first serious bout of close combat. The only way you can lose to this is if you forgot to bring anti-MEq, and last I checked, that was the one thing that almost NO list forgets to bring.

If this is clearly the loser list, I'm actually curious to see a real, winning one.

Ya, this isn't really a great list if you ask me. And if this is all you're fighting, I can see why you have no problem wiping this out.
Give me a point value and I can pick out something that would probably end up giving you at least a decent game, though meta gaming through lists and points is hardly a way to go because it all comes down to how the dice play and how the terrain is lined up and how each player would react to the others tactics.

The Grog wrote:Sadly, Ailaros is mostly right.

Necrons depended on high LD and low penalties for losing melee combat to stick around and get WBB/teleports in.

Doesn't work that way anymore.

Necrons depended on good damage from glancing hits on vehicles.

Doesn't work that way anymore.

Necrons depended on the slowness of their troops choices to not matter much.

You know the refrain.

Not like they ever had any units that were actually good at melee besides the Deciever.

The glancing hits on vehicles is still VERY useful in it's current incarnation. Sure we can't blow them up with a lucky 6 but as long as we get one glance that's no shooting for you for one turn. Where's your ordnance now? I'll give you the CC one with how Sweeping Advance and the negatives work now (which is my biggest gripe about this game, but I have only ever known 5th edition) but the necron players just need to be better at not getting into CC if at all possible. There is no shame is a tactical advance to the rear.

The nightbringer is good in melee as well. Flayed ones are pretty much exactly like SM in melee but they don't have power weapons or rending, but against a non HQ/Assault type unit they're handy. Wraiths as well aren't bad, but again with no power weapons/rending there's not real point in taking them against MEQ armies. Unfortunately neither of these units are great choices. While stats-wise they are no worse than marines (quite the contrary, possibly better since they can get back up sometimes) with the lack of armor save ignoring CC options like what marines and pretty much every other army gets, they're a point sink. Taking them in a list against a non-MEQ army though, might prove useful.

Bio-Merc91207 wrote:well this is all true but in reality, is anything in life really fool proof ? 36, S4, SV 3+, characters with basically feel no pain takes a lot to kill. i would also like to mention that while my opponent is trying to do this i'm bringing the heat with VERY fast destroyers and outflanking flayed ones. i don't know about you but enemies tend to always freak out and start shooting to kill at all costs something that is coming from your flank.

additionally, necron warriors can shoot up to 24 inches so i can afford to veil into the middle of nowhere to make my scatters as safe as possible since scatter is 12 inches at absoloute maximum, i usually only use the veil for if i end up in CC, and if i'm in CC then risking the scatter if FAR better than braving round after round of close combat, which will make my squad useless. it's a win win how i use it anyway.

as for pie plates, they scatter too and although it's not the most pristene strategy i'd like to point out the 36 T4 FNP wounds with 3+ saves to boot not many large blast templates have AP3 in there characteristic (i think IG is the only army i've seen with one). like i said before no army is without it's own issues and nothing is perfect. a level head will realize that and make the best use it.

36, 4/4, 3+ models that vanish from the table the first time they break from close combat and possibly take the rest of the army with it. And almost EVERY large blast is AP 3. Commonly used large blasts that aren't AP 3 are the exception. And then while you assault the warriors, you focus all your high S fire on the destroyers one squad at a time to deny WBB. And then you laugh at the flayed ones, because they suck.

That's also 36 models that aren't doing very much damage. Bolter fire scares no one, and they can't risk assault against many opponents for fear of getting beaten or just pinned down until something comes to help that does beat them.

Kevin949 wrote:
The glancing hits on vehicles is still VERY useful in it's current incarnation. Sure we can't blow them up with a lucky 6 but as long as we get one glance that's no shooting for you for one turn. Where's your ordnance now? I'll give you the CC one with how Sweeping Advance and the negatives work now (which is my biggest gripe about this game, but I have only ever known 5th edition) but the necron players just need to be better at not getting into CC if at all possible. There is no shame is a tactical advance to the rear.

The nightbringer is good in melee as well. Flayed ones are pretty much exactly like SM in melee but they don't have power weapons or rending, but against a non HQ/Assault type unit they're handy. Wraiths as well aren't bad, but again with no power weapons/rending there's not real point in taking them against MEQ armies. Unfortunately neither of these units are great choices. While stats-wise they are no worse than marines (quite the contrary, possibly better since they can get back up sometimes) with the lack of armor save ignoring CC options like what marines and pretty much every other army gets, they're a point sink. Taking them in a list against a non-MEQ army though, might prove useful.

Except many other squads in the game can carry a weapon that, you know, KILLS the vehicle instead of glances it. And does so with not that much worse a % chance than the '1 glance per 9 shots' gauss fire. And sometimes carries more than one. And can move rapidly to deliver that firepower, often in a resistant to assault form (transports, skimmers, teleport suicide). A tactical advance to the rear only works when your opponents aren't moving faster, and you are moving AWAY from the objectives.

The Nightbringer gets bogged down or assaulted by something that kills it. Those units do exist now. The Deceiver fights only when it wants to and gets free movement otherwise. Assault Squads are weak, flayed ones are weaker with a craps shoot attached. Wraiths can work ... when you field 6 and treat them as one unit. Neither are good against any army compared to more Destroyers and Immortals. The best normal melee unit for Necrons are scarabs, but they have harsh effectiveness limitations, compete with Destroyers, and aren't Necron either.

The 'good' list is

Deciever
20 Warriors, in reserve to walk on your edge
Destroyers & Immortals
finish with Monoliths and Heavy Ds

The other option is Monolith spam, but that is more fragile with regards to Phase Out.

Well, good for the other units that can kill the vehicles. I'll sit back and laugh at the bolters doing nothing to any vehicle. I'd rather have the option of glancing on 40+ shots than only being able to pen with 3-9.

Wow, units exists that can kill other units? Amazing.

But honestly, the deceiver can be dealt with just the same as the nightbringer...ignore it. They both have the same movement speed anyway, so they're equally slow.

I suppose assault squad wasn't the most proper term I could have used, I meant it in the sense of ANY squad that specializes in assaulting. And I don't get what you mean by "a craps shoot attached", please explain.

Scarabs kinda suck for CC, they get obliterated by many CC models that have str6, so with their typical 4-6 attacks in CC and having a power weapon and hitting on a 3+ most likely, you lose a base per hit practically. THen you lose assault, have to take fearless saves and that rockin 5+ save screws you. Not to mention they can and will get wiped easily by any template weapon, especially IG cover ignoring stuff. Maybe if you equipped them with the disruptor field and assaulted vehicles with them, then sure they might be worth it, but then they're as expensive as your typical warrior at that point.

Yup. And they are killing that vehicle with meltaguns and then doing something else. You aren't.

Wrong. The Deciever gets a free fallback move during your opponent's assault phase if he's engaged. This increases his mobility substantially, just like every other unit with hit and run. It gives him a 12 + 2d6 threat range once in combat with anything with a WS.

Terrifying Visage is a craps shoot. The list of units that it has both a high chance of kicking in and that you care about it kicking in is very short. Small ork units, and 'gaunts out of synapse. For everything else that matters you have a small chance of them failing their LD 9 or 10 and needing 6's to hit you.

S6 in melee rare aside from those 2-3 powerfist attacks at I1, and it is easy to turboboost scarab units into cover and get a +2 save in the process. The right weapons will still work them over, but their damage/points ratio and mobility are better than flayed ones or spyders, and Wraiths come in units too small to be worth taking.

Disruptor fields have the exact same problem gauss does. It's extremely difficult to actually kill a vehicle with glancing hits, and it makes them quite expensive. A 3 weapon vehicle takes 4 WD/Immo results, which takes 12 glances, which takes 72 attacks.

Grey Templar wrote:FNP is only negated by, Power weapons, weapons with a Str double the victums T value, AP2 and AP1 weapons.

WBB is the same way.


WBB is different in that you roll at the end of the turn instead of after failed armor saves.

Not correct.

WBB is negated if a wound is caused by an attack whose strength is double toughness of the model or a wound suffered by a CC weapon that does not allow an armor save.

AP is not a factor in WBB.

so you are correct.


Why then would you want WBB to be the same as FNP?

true, you roll before combats and tests for shooting are rolled, but AP2 and 1 weapons would increase the number of things that negate the save.(plasma weapons come to mind)

Kevin949 wrote:The glancing hits on vehicles is still VERY useful in it's current incarnation. Sure we can't blow them up with a lucky 6 but as long as we get one glance that's no shooting for you for one turn. Where's your ordnance now? I'll give you the CC one with how Sweeping Advance and the negatives work now (which is my biggest gripe about this game, but I have only ever known 5th edition) but the necron players just need to be better at not getting into CC if at all possible. There is no shame is a tactical advance to the rear.

And what's your answer for land raiders? Not to play a space marine player? Just how do you stop a land raider AND not get in CC 'if at all possible'.

Kevin949 wrote:The nightbringer is good in melee as well. Flayed ones are pretty much exactly like SM in melee but they don't have power weapons or rending, but against a non HQ/Assault type unit they're handy. Wraiths as well aren't bad, but again with no power weapons/rending there's not real point in taking them against MEQ armies. Unfortunately neither of these units are great choices. While stats-wise they are no worse than marines (quite the contrary, possibly better since they can get back up sometimes) with the lack of armor save ignoring CC options like what marines and pretty much every other army gets, they're a point sink. Taking them in a list against a non-MEQ army though, might prove useful.

Nightie doesn't suck in CC, but the Deceiver is the clear champ here. None of the necron CC units can stand up to elite CC units of other armies. That's a serious problem. The only CC threat necrons have is a single HQ choice that costs 300pts. That's not very optimal.

Necrons suckage in 5th ed can be summed up with two primary issues:

New CC resolution.

Glancing no longer capable of destroying vehicles, most importantly land raiders. Relying on a handful of lc's to deal with raiders is fool hardy.


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Grey Templar wrote:so you are correct.


Why then would you want WBB to be the same as FNP?

true, you roll before combats and tests for shooting are rolled, but AP2 and 1 weapons would increase the number of things that negate the save.(plasma weapons come to mind)

Plasma is still a rarity. Changing WBB for FNP would allow necrons the ability to at least have a chance in the one area they are greatly hampered at, surviving CC. FNP is triggered immediately, not at the beginning of the next turn. With FNP, at least a necron player can possibly negate a few wounds and not take such a harsh penalty to their leadership.

The trade off/balance for that is it makes necrons a more vulnerable to shooting. It also helps streamline a very poorly written WBB rule with a USR.

Making gauss and disruptor fields rending would be a good change as well.

imweasel wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:so you are correct.


Why then would you want WBB to be the same as FNP?

true, you roll before combats and tests for shooting are rolled, but AP2 and 1 weapons would increase the number of things that negate the save.(plasma weapons come to mind)

Plasma is still a rarity. Changing WBB for FNP would allow necrons the ability to at least have a chance in the one area they are greatly hampered at, surviving CC. FNP is triggered immediately, not at the beginning of the next turn. With FNP, at least a necron player can possibly negate a few wounds and not take such a harsh penalty to their leadership.

The trade off/balance for that is it makes necrons a more vulnerable to shooting. It also helps streamline a very poorly written WBB rule with a USR.

Making gauss and disruptor fields rending would be a good change as well.

Exactly what he said for the FNP issue. I also like the idea of giving Gauss weapons Rending, as that will help out their "normal" ranged attacks with the ability to get thru infantry armor that they need, while not simply having them buy special weapons like everyone else and thus keeping their trademark uniformity.