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So I was at an event this weekend.

I had a group of destroyer platforms (36" Gauss Cannon) lining up a Daemon Prince. Distance maybe 18 to 21 inches.
I pick up my dice to roll and he asks me to measure the distance, very seriously.

I was clearly inside and when I looked up at him I realized he oppononent was trying to see if he had the distance needed to counter charge.

I told him I would not measure the distance as evenly as I could. He backed off. I know that he could have forced the issue and made me measure the distsance but did not.

I understand a little gamesmenship but was this "out of line"? Would you ask to see an obvious measure to pick up advantage in your turn?

yes... He was well within his rights to ask you to measure. BUT you only need to show him that he is within the 36inch range by extending the tape measure the full 36

opponent asking you to measure something is clearly w/in his rights to ask you, if he is asking you to measure it for his own reasons ( counter charge ) its still w/in his rights to ask, now if you pull the tape out to 36'' and very quickly show that its in range..lol thats also w/in your rights dont have to show him the EXACT range you are from him just that your in it...

I think it was a good move to ask you to measure as some opponents will and it can give you information. It is a big time waister though to do it often.

You could also pull the tape out to 36" and flip it upside down so no info is transfered, only that the shot is within 36". I think the subtleties of gamemanship are great, as long as they are within the rules. Now putting your 12" ruler down next to a unit that is moving 6" to see if they will have a charge, I would consider that pre-measuring, a no-no, but asking for a range measurement is legit, at least IMO.

By the rules, you must measure. By the rules, I've not seen where you have to let him know what the real distance is, so long as it's within range.

jgemrich wrote:I know that he could have forced the issue and made me measure the distsance but did not.

Asked and answered .

As the other have said, show you're in range without showing exact range etc.
I don't think it was a dick move, even if he was trying to get some info from your measure. It's a game with a winner and a loser. Gamesmanship is to be expected no?

My post will be incredibly helpful I'm sure, but it depends on my opponent. If I'm playing Mega-RAW guy then I'll tell him and he'll tell me because we both want to do the best we can. If I'm playing casual-guy, he usually doesn't care enough to clarify. To each his own.

I know the answer that was yes..perfectly legal and that I'm obligated to measure. I was really interested in if the audience at large engaged in that type of questioning or not.

What would you do if your opponent told you no (as I did)?

I really felt it was an OTT question to ask when the distance was nigh 1/2 of the range of the weapon.

Did I mention we were playing on 2x2 tiles as well?

if you told me no and it was OBVIOUSLY in range, id think you were intentionally trying to be a dick to me... you should of at the very least pulled out the tape to the max range of weapon and did a quick see its in range Dumb *** and gone about your shooting lol

I had someone ask me to measure range to from my thunderfire cannon to a tac squad sitting roughly 2 feet away. Pull that tape measure out to maximum range, flip it upside down, and show him its somewhere within 24 inches.

I agree with what Norbu said. Hold the tape out the full range & upside down so he can't see the actual distance from your unit to the target. He will still have to guestimate.

G

I'm going to have to disagree with just about everyone in this thread.

The rules for measuring range when shooting (page 17 of the rulebook) do not tell you to just make sure that the target is within the maximum range of the weapon... they actually specify that you measure the distance from the firer to the target.

So no, I think he was well within his rights to ask you to measure. It's not giving him any more advantage that it's giving you... now you both know the exact distance between the units.

Of course, flipping it upside down can give you a couple inches of extra range.

I'm of the opinion that if you declare a shot, the range to target will be found out by both parties if they want to know.

The OP said it was obvious that his target was within maximum range. If a weapon has 48" or more range it should be fairly obvious most of the time and if you have to measure more than halfway across the table your opponent more than likely won't be able to use it to gauge his full assault arc. If it's obvious I don't see a particular reason why you need to measure the exact distance even if the rules state you can. One thing I really liked a lot about the game Starship Troopers from Mongoose (designed by Andy Chambers) was you could measure any distance at anytime. This mechanic got rid of these kinds of problems as you see being discussed here.

G

Black Blow Fly wrote: If it's obvious I don't see a particular reason why you need to measure the exact distance even if the rules state you can.

You need to measure because the rules say you have to measure.

If you want to play, as I suspect a lot of gamers do, that measurement is not required if it's obviously in range, that's fine... but it's not what the rules say to do, and unless you have actually agreed to play by your houserule your opponent is within their rights to ask you to measure it.

insaniak wrote:I'm going to have to disagree with just about everyone in this thread.

The rules for measuring range when shooting (page 17 of the rulebook) do not tell you to just make sure that the target is within the maximum range of the weapon... they actually specify that you measure the distance from the firer to the target.

So no, I think he was well within his rights to ask you to measure. It's not giving him any more advantage that it's giving you... now you both know the exact distance between the units.

Thank you.

Finally some common sense in this thread.

Rules say you have to measure. So you do.

I honestly don't see this as an issue at all. If you shoot (or use a ranged psy test or anything along that line at all) I would say that if your opponent wants to see the measurement he/she is at rights to do so.


I am REALLY bad with spacial measurements so I often ask to see measurements on ranged distances. Not at all looking for an advantage ... I just want to make sure that things are jolly.

I have had this happen, I just pull my tape out to the max range, flip it upside down so he can't see the numbers, and then sweep it over the field to show him whats in range.

If something has to be measured (shooting, assault, Hood range, etc) then I play it where both players get access to the exact measurement if they want it.

The title is about etiquette not rules. There is a difference although they are bound together.

G

Black Blow Fly wrote:The title is about etiquette not rules. There is a difference although they are bound together.G

And normal etiquette is to follow the rules, unless agreed otherwise...

Yeah, I'd say the measurement should be made and available to both players. I'm with Insaniak on this one.

The rules do not require precise measurement of the distance to the target. This can confer an unfair advantage on the other player. The upside down max range determination resolves the issue.

Kilkrazy wrote:The rules do not require precise measurement of the distance to the target. This can confer an unfair advantage on the other player. The upside down max range determination resolves the issue.

Absolutely. Your opponent need know only that you are in range.

The intent of measuring the distance in the shooting phase is to determine if the weapon is in range for all parties. If it is 'clearly' in range whether due to target and shooter being within 50% of the range, or other battlefield markers (in my case 2 foot tiles) then those that request the measurement (since the rules "demand" it) do not do so for the intent of the rule (determining if the weapon is in range) but rather to gain advantage in their turn. While completely legal it is quite beardy.

I will note that my opponent and I had a very good game and it was very enjoyable. I just called out what I thought to be poor etiquette, rules or no and we settled into a nice game.

note: I like the solution to pull out the tape measure and turn it upside down over the area.

You know tipping it updise down makes it fall all over the place and become generally annoying right? Measure to the target you're shooting at, going up to the full range.

Stop at whatever comes first, max range or the target.

I guess if you really wanted to get persnicketty you could make some dowel rods or narrow strips of card, each measured to the max range of whichever weapon you have to fire. I know in my army there's only 12" 18" 24" 36" 48". 5 different sizes of straight measuring rods to make... cut them to exact lengths then right before the game take the measuring stick and show him that it is exactly 24" or whatever by holding a tape measure to it? This is going too far in my opinion when the easier solution would be to throw the tape measure at his head and tell him to quit being such an obvious prick

I'm glad some people see it the way I do. Etiquette is about being polite.

G

n0t_u wrote:You know tipping it updise down makes it fall all over the place and become generally annoying right?

I'd say it is about as annoying as TFG asking you to measure 18" on a 36" range weapon.

skyth wrote:Of course, flipping it upside down can give you a couple inches of extra range.

I'm of the opinion that if you declare a shot, the range to target will be found out by both parties if they want to know.

Yea. I am going to want to see you're within distance. Otherwise you can stick it-its an illegal shot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Clthomps wrote:I have had this happen, I just pull my tape out to the max range, flip it upside down so he can't see the numbers, and then sweep it over the field to show him whats in range.

Then I would stop you, and make you flip it back over and do it again. If you didn't I would get out my own measure and measure it as you did not follow what the rules say. Until you follow what the rules say I would continue to do that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kilkrazy wrote:The rules do not require precise measurement of the distance to the target. This can confer an unfair advantage on the other player. The upside down max range determination resolves the issue.

No it doesn't. All it does it denote you pulled a tape measure out and flipped it around. Nothing more.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Black Blow Fly wrote:I'm glad some people see it the way I do. Etiquette is about being polite.

G

Being polite goes both ways.