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puma713 wrote:So, on the same token, you'd be perfectly fine with me firing my laspistol at a unit 72" away to glean all the measurements I needed for the rest of my turn. The laspistol is going to miss, but I have to measure. And any other measurements I make out are perfectly fine. So now I know where I can and can't deep strike to be safe. I know how far I need to charge. I know how far I need to move my land raider to disembark and get into assault. All from a 6" laspistol shot.

I'd personally be fine with it. Because of my aforementioned superior judging skills, I already know all this. I'd rather outplay you than win because you're gak at judging distances.

As for firing the laspistol at a target 72" away...I don't know if there's a rule in 40k, but in Fantasy, you cannot attempt actions that is obvious that they would fail. Shooting a 12" range gun at something 72" away falls into that category.

Nice Strawman though. Especially as they are entirely different situations.

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:

puma713 wrote:However, in the case that all these threads are talking about, Dash made it abundantly clear.

And yet you wouldn't have a problem with it if he hadn't said anything, because you would be unable to judge whether or not it actually happened.

How am I going to have an issue with something that I don't know is going on? If you are intent on cheating and are good at it, then I suppose there's nothing I can do about it. You needed to cheat to win. That's on you. Whether or not I know you did it, you still cheated and it's still wrong. If you got away with it, then I wouldn't know to have a problem with it.

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:So what you would be doing by making this illegal is to punish stupid people who don't realise that they're breaking a rule, and ignoring people who are intent on cheating.

If someone doesn't realize they're breaking the rule, you can politely say, "you really aren't allowed to measure my unit's movement and charge range. Try to refrain from that in the future." People who are intent on cheating and do it blatantly, like Dash did, are not ignored. I wouldn't ignore anyone that was intent on cheating, if I had any sort of inkling about it.




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WARBOSS TZOO wrote:

puma713 wrote:So, on the same token, you'd be perfectly fine with me firing my laspistol at a unit 72" away to glean all the measurements I needed for the rest of my turn. The laspistol is going to miss, but I have to measure. And any other measurements I make out are perfectly fine. So now I know where I can and can't deep strike to be safe. I know how far I need to charge. I know how far I need to move my land raider to disembark and get into assault. All from a 6" laspistol shot.

I'd personally be fine with it. Because of my aforementioned superior judging skills, I already know all this. I'd rather outplay you than win because you're gak at judging distances.

And that's the whole point of this thread. You're not "outplaying" someone when you pre-measure your opponent's move and charge distances.


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skyth wrote:As for firing the laspistol at a target 72" away...I don't know if there's a rule in 40k, but in Fantasy, you cannot attempt actions that is obvious that they would fail. Shooting a 12" range gun at something 72" away falls into that category.

Nice Strawman though. Especially as they are entirely different situations.

In 40K, you measure from the closest model in the firing unit to the closest model in the targeted unit, whether the max range of the gun is 6" or 72".

And about the Strawman thing - pre-measuring movement to glean charge range of your opponent is no different than using a pistol to glean the charge range of your enemy. Both instances are pertinent to the conversation and the original argument.

skyth wrote:As for firing the laspistol at a target 72" away...I don't know if there's a rule in 40k, but in Fantasy, you cannot attempt actions that is obvious that they would fail. Shooting a 12" range gun at something 72" away falls into that category.

You can shoot at something obviously out of range, what happens is that your shots automatically miss. You can still measure the distance between them.

puma713 wrote:How am I going to have an issue with something that I don't know is going on? If you are intent on cheating and are good at it, then I suppose there's nothing I can do about it. You needed to cheat to win. That's on you. Whether or not I know you did it, you still cheated and it's still wrong. If you got away with it, then I wouldn't know to have a problem with it.

This is exactly my point. You don't know what it is that I'm doing. You don't know that I'm premeasuring. I could just be slow to register numbers on a tape measure. (actually true, and why I practice to become decent at not needing to measure)

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:So what you would be doing by making this illegal is to punish stupid people who don't realise that they're breaking a rule, and ignoring people who are intent on cheating.

If someone doesn't realize they're breaking the rule, you can politely say, "you really aren't allowed to measure my unit's movement and charge range. Try to refrain from that in the future." People who are intent on cheating and do it blatantly, like Dash did, are not ignored. I wouldn't ignore anyone that was intent on cheating, if I had any sort of inkling about it.

First of all, we don't agree that it's cheating.

Second, the point is that if you make it illegal then people who are intent on cheating aren't going to make you aware of what they're doing. It's entirely pointless.

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WARBOSS TZOO wrote:

puma713 wrote:So, on the same token, you'd be perfectly fine with me firing my laspistol at a unit 72" away to glean all the measurements I needed for the rest of my turn. The laspistol is going to miss, but I have to measure. And any other measurements I make out are perfectly fine. So now I know where I can and can't deep strike to be safe. I know how far I need to charge. I know how far I need to move my land raider to disembark and get into assault. All from a 6" laspistol shot.

I'd personally be fine with it. Because of my aforementioned superior judging skills, I already know all this. I'd rather outplay you than win because you're gak at judging distances.

And that's the whole point of this thread. You're not "outplaying" someone when you pre-measure your opponent's move and charge distances.

I'm not outplaying someone by being a better judge of distance than they are, either, which is the point that I'm making here.

puma713 wrote:And about the Strawman thing - pre-measuring movement to glean charge range of your opponent is no different than using a pistol to glean the charge range of your enemy. Both instances are pertinent to the conversation and the original argument.

And one is entirely legal, and one is not. Either both should be illegal, or both should be legal.

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:So what you would be doing by making this illegal is to punish stupid people who don't realise that they're breaking a rule, and ignoring people who are intent on cheating.

If someone doesn't realize they're breaking the rule, you can politely say, "you really aren't allowed to measure my unit's movement and charge range. Try to refrain from that in the future." People who are intent on cheating and do it blatantly, like Dash did, are not ignored. I wouldn't ignore anyone that was intent on cheating, if I had any sort of inkling about it.

First of all, we don't agree that it's cheating.

That's fine. But it is. You aren't allowed to measure your opponent's charge range and movement, which is what Dash did, under the guise of his movement phase.

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:

puma713 wrote:

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:

puma713 wrote:So, on the same token, you'd be perfectly fine with me firing my laspistol at a unit 72" away to glean all the measurements I needed for the rest of my turn. The laspistol is going to miss, but I have to measure. And any other measurements I make out are perfectly fine. So now I know where I can and can't deep strike to be safe. I know how far I need to charge. I know how far I need to move my land raider to disembark and get into assault. All from a 6" laspistol shot.

I'd personally be fine with it. Because of my aforementioned superior judging skills, I already know all this. I'd rather outplay you than win because you're gak at judging distances.

And that's the whole point of this thread. You're not "outplaying" someone when you pre-measure your opponent's move and charge distances.

I'm not outplaying someone by being a better judge of distance than they are, either, which is the point that I'm making here.

lol yes you are. You are outplaying them because you're a better judge of distance. If they can't look at a board and decide that you're too far away for a charge and they move forward anyway, your being able to more accurately judge makes you better at estimating measurements, which makes you a better player. But that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about setting down your tape measure, measuring how far your opponent can move and charge and then moving accordingly.

Anyway, I'm tired of arguing the same points in two threads. The majority has spoken (so far - 52% don't agree with the use of this tactic) in the other thread, so I'm happy at leaving it with that. I'm also happy that no one around here plays like this.

puma713 wrote:And about the Strawman thing - pre-measuring movement to glean charge range of your opponent is no different than using a pistol to glean the charge range of your enemy. Both instances are pertinent to the conversation and the original argument.

Not quite. By the rules you are required to measure to any target you fire at (Which is what this thread is about). Attempting an action that will obviously automatically fail is a different animal.

skyth wrote:

puma713 wrote:And about the Strawman thing - pre-measuring movement to glean charge range of your opponent is no different than using a pistol to glean the charge range of your enemy. Both instances are pertinent to the conversation and the original argument.

Not quite. By the rules you are required to measure to any target you fire at (Which is what this thread is about). Attempting an action that will obviously automatically fail is a different animal.

It might have started that way, but it degenerated into the thread about pre-measurement, which was kicked-off by this thread about Dashofpepper and Primarch's game: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/296521.page It started about movement, not shooting, and has spanned many different forums. And this topic has moved toward that as well - the overall umbrella topic of pre-measuring, in which both the movement phases and the shooting phases can be affected. Hence, the points are pertinent.

The thing is, measuring the distance to a target is not pre-measuring.

skyth wrote:The thing is, measuring the distance to a target is not pre-measuring.

If you happen to measure the charge range of one of your units to a completely unrelated unit that you expect to charge, just to find out if you're in range by using your shooting measuring, then yes, that is pre-measuring.

No, it isn't. Pre-measuring is only when you measure something outside of a game-required/allowed measurment.

skyth wrote:No, it isn't. Pre-measuring is only when you measure something outside of a game-required/allowed measurment.

I line up my bolters with their 24" range. I take aim at a Chimera about. . say. . .60" away. I place my tape measure alongside a unit that I am planning to assault with, while, at the same time, laying my tape measure alongside the enemy unit that I plan to charge. I take a look at the tape measure to find out that the enemy unit is 7" away. Too far for a charge. Better use rapid fire on them. I find that my bolters miss the Chimera 60" away, but now I have pre-measured a charge range for one of my units and am using that knowledge to influence my further actions.

Measuring charge range is not allowed in the shooting phase. That is against the rules.

The same old Strawman. Attempting an action that you know will automatically fail is another kettle of fish.

skyth wrote:The same old Strawman. Attempting an action that you know will automatically fail is another kettle of fish.

Christ. You're not getting the point. Fine, don't use a shot that will miss. Use a krak missile firing at a unit 36" away. If I use the measurement to find out a charge range, I am still pre-measuring a charge range which is against the rules.

puma713 wrote:That's fine. But it is. You aren't allowed to measure your opponent's charge range and movement, which is what Dash did, under the guise of his movement phase.

But we don't agree that this is what he did. He measured his own movement and, extrapolated from that, which isn't against the rules.

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:

puma713 wrote:

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:

puma713 wrote:So, on the same token, you'd be perfectly fine with me firing my laspistol at a unit 72" away to glean all the measurements I needed for the rest of my turn. The laspistol is going to miss, but I have to measure. And any other measurements I make out are perfectly fine. So now I know where I can and can't deep strike to be safe. I know how far I need to charge. I know how far I need to move my land raider to disembark and get into assault. All from a 6" laspistol shot.

I'd personally be fine with it. Because of my aforementioned superior judging skills, I already know all this. I'd rather outplay you than win because you're gak at judging distances.

And that's the whole point of this thread. You're not "outplaying" someone when you pre-measure your opponent's move and charge distances.

I'm not outplaying someone by being a better judge of distance than they are, either, which is the point that I'm making here.

lol yes you are. You are outplaying them because you're a better judge of distance. If they can't look at a board and decide that you're too far away for a charge and they move forward anyway, your being able to more accurately judge makes you better at estimating measurements, which makes you a better player.

That might make you a better player, but beating someone because they misjudged a charge distance doesn't mean you outplayed them, and you cannot honestly believe this to be true.

But that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about setting down your tape measure, measuring how far your opponent can move and charge and then moving accordingly.

You're measuring your own movement. And extrapolating from that. Which is perfectly legal.


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puma713 wrote:

skyth wrote:The same old Strawman. Attempting an action that you know will automatically fail is another kettle of fish.

Christ. You're not getting the point. Fine, don't use a shot that will miss. Use a krak missile firing at a unit 36" away. If I use the measurement to find out a charge range, I am still pre-measuring a charge range which is against the rules.

If I measure the distance between two objects, X and Y, I then know the distance between Y and X, and I also have a fair idea of the distance of anything between X and Y and either X or Y.

Expecting me to forget this is utterly naive.

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:

But that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about setting down your tape measure, measuring how far your opponent can move and charge and then moving accordingly.

You're measuring your own movement. And extrapolating from that. Which is perfectly legal.

And this thread isn't about legality (which is what it has boiled down to) but the etiquette of measuring - the intent. Dash measured his opponent's move and charge range, disguised as his own movement, and then moved backwards. Legal? Maybe - since he could disguise it as a legal move, technically yes. But while enforcing one rule, he broke another. Shady? Definitely.


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WARBOSS TZOO wrote:


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puma713 wrote:

skyth wrote:The same old Strawman. Attempting an action that you know will automatically fail is another kettle of fish.

Christ. You're not getting the point. Fine, don't use a shot that will miss. Use a krak missile firing at a unit 36" away. If I use the measurement to find out a charge range, I am still pre-measuring a charge range which is against the rules.

If I measure the distance between two objects, X and Y, I then know the difference between Y and X, and I also have a fair idea of the distance of anything between X and Y and either X or Y.

Expecting me to forget this is utterly naive.

I didn't write the rules. If you take a measurement of something that you're not entitled to, it is cheating, plain and simple. Again, it comes back to intent.

puma713 wrote:

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:

But that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about setting down your tape measure, measuring how far your opponent can move and charge and then moving accordingly.

You're measuring your own movement. And extrapolating from that. Which is perfectly legal.

And this thread isn't about legality (which is what it has boiled down to) but the etiquette of measuring - the intent. Dash measured his opponent's move and charge range, disguised as his own movement, and then moved backwards. Legal? Maybe - since he could disguise it as a legal move, technically yes. But while enforcing one rule, he broke another. Shady? Definitely.

I though you just said it was cheating?

Now it's legal?

Make up your mind.

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:

puma713 wrote:

skyth wrote:The same old Strawman. Attempting an action that you know will automatically fail is another kettle of fish.

Christ. You're not getting the point. Fine, don't use a shot that will miss. Use a krak missile firing at a unit 36" away. If I use the measurement to find out a charge range, I am still pre-measuring a charge range which is against the rules.

If I measure the distance between two objects, X and Y, I then know the difference between Y and X, and I also have a fair idea of the distance of anything between X and Y and either X or Y.

Expecting me to forget this is utterly naive.

I didn't write the rules. If you take a measurement of something that you're not entitled to, it is cheating, plain and simple.

Take it up with GW, then, because they've made it impossible to follow the rules without breaking them, as far as you're concerned.

No, you are not pre-measuring in that case. You are making a required measurment in the game. If you happen to get additional information from that, more power to you.

It's exactly the same thing as you destroy a Rhino and entangle the troops inside of it so they can't move next turn. Are you not allowed to fire pistols at the entangled unit because you'll know if you're in charge range then for the next turn? By your definition, you are pre-measuring and thus cheating.

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:

I though you just said it was cheating?

Now it's legal?

Make up your mind.

Are you following me at all? I said yes it is legal to measure your movement. By doing so, he took another measurement, which is illegal. By enforcing one rule, he broke another. What do you do there? That's the point of these four or so threads that have started up about measurement.

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:

puma713 wrote:

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:

If I measure the distance between two objects, X and Y, I then know the difference between Y and X, and I also have a fair idea of the distance of anything between X and Y and either X or Y.

Expecting me to forget this is utterly naive.

I didn't write the rules. If you take a measurement of something that you're not entitled to, it is cheating, plain and simple.

Take it up with GW, then, because they've made it impossible to follow the rules without breaking them, as far as you're concerned.

And as far as the majority in the other thread as well. In fact, the person that committed the offense has said that he will not be resorting to that tactic anymore. I can take a measurement of my movement without INTENTIONALLY trying to pre-measure something else. That's like snubbing your nose at the rules and saying, "Well, I'm legally allowed to, so nyah!" So, the game is not unplayable. I take measurements all day without taking secondary measurements. And I do well! See you at the 'ard Boyz Semis.


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skyth wrote:No, you are not pre-measuring in that case. You are making a required measurment in the game. If you happen to get additional information from that, more power to you.

Measuring a length of the field for a purpose other than moving in the movement phase, or measuring something other than shooting in the shooting phase (aside from special rules and running - you get my point, let's not break this down into basic semantics so we can't have an actual discussion) is against the rules. It is clearly written. I'm not making this up. You're saying it is IMPOSSIBLE for you to measure something without taking a second measurement of something else? That is not me or GW breaking the game, that is you breaking the game.

Edit: Again, like I said about 5-6 posts ago, I'm off. The same argument in two threads is taxing and I have to be up in about four hours. If it's still going on, I'll talk to you tomorrow night.

puma713 wrote:And as far as the majority in the other thread as well. In fact, the person that committed the offense has said that he will not be resorting to that tactic anymore.

Dash said that he won't be doing it again because it irritates people, not because he thinks it's rulebreaking.

I can take a measurement of my movement without INTENTIONALLY trying to pre-measure something else.

But you can't take a measurement of your movement when there's another persons unit in the vicinity of your movement without knowing whether or not they're in charge range/etc. At least without a lot of work.

That's like snubbing your nose at the rules and saying, "Well, I'm legally allowed to, so nyah!" So, the game is not unplayable.

Never said it wasn't. Just implied that it was foolish beyond belief to expect other people to conform to your imaginary set of rules.

I take measurements all day without taking secondary measurements.

If you know the distance between X and Y, you know the distance between Y and X. And if you know your opponents army, you then know if Y're in charge range.

So unless you're an incompetent general, you don't take measurements all day without taking secondary measurements.

And I do well! See you at the 'ard Boyz Semis.

So apparently either your preliminary opponents were incompetent, or you lie about taking secondary measurements, or you aren't aware that you're taking secondary measurements.

You are not taking the measurement of something not allowed, but you will know the distance by making other allowed measurements.

You are required to measure the distance to the target for weapon fire. Getting other information via that REQUIRED measurement is not pre-measuring any more than firing a pistol at a pinned squad is even though it will allow you to know if the squad is in assault range next turn. Same as two squads next to each other and the less valuable shot is taken first to see if the more valuable shot is in range, or should be used somewhere else.

puma713 wrote:

Anyway, I'm tired of arguing the same points in two threads. The majority has spoken (so far - 52% don't agree with the use of this tactic) in the other thread, so I'm happy at leaving it with that. I'm also happy that no one around here plays like this.

Lies, damn lies, and statistics, eh?

Only 7% think it is outright cheating.

49% Think it's perfectly legit.

45% say it's legal, but frowned upon.

(and for those keeping score at home, yes, those do total 101%)

Anyways, the point is... if you want to cite a poll supporting your position, try one that isn't almost a 50/50 split on this issue... and definitely don't cite a poll in which 94% of respondents would disagree with your bandying about of the term 'cheating'-- because something that is legal, isn't cheating.

I've been following this thread and watching the point, counter point. I have allready given my opinion and stated that the simplest thing to do would be to just comply with the request to measure my range to the target. No biggie. Two can play that way.

All of these "what if" straw man arguments about can a lasgun meaure out to 48" etc.etc. are so far beyond anything that would actually happen in a real game of 40K vs on some theoretical situaton on an internet forum, it really is an example of how to rules lawyer.

Also I think it's false to call it premeasuring by asking your opponent to measure HIS range to HIS target. Trying to say that you are premeasuring, by asking your opponent to measure HIS range to target on HIS turn is not premeasuring.

It's only premeasuring when you pull out YOUR tape measure and start to measure YOUR targets.

Bottom line is, it really isn't that big of a deal.

So much drama.......


GG

Interesting thread.

I don't think there have been any significant strawman arguments here, and I've actually run into a problem with this recently at Adepticon. In an otherwise great game against two high-quality and sportmanlike opponents, my partner and I were surprised and discomfited that when we fired a multimelta at a unit of Thunderwolf cav, one of our opponents requested that we go back and re-measure so he could clearly see the exact distance and so best judge the move+fleet+charge distance for his TWC. This seemed inappropriate to us, but reading Redbeard and Capt Zachs's posts today, I can better see where our opponent was coming from.

Overall I have to agree with Kilkrazy and Puma.

The rules state that we are not allowed to pre-measure our shooting or assault moves. The intent is clearly for players to need to exercise personal judgment of distances when committing to an action.

The rules also clearly state that we measure from the firing model to the targeted unit for any shot. I agree that it is implicit in the rule that both players get access to the same information from the measurement, but I definitely see Kilkrazy’s point that this seems to conflict with the general idea of not pre-measuring.

When I started wargaming it was in a very strict no-premeasuring environment, and we used multiple procedural techniques to prevent the inappropriate gaining of any unnecessary data about distances on the table. This meant that (for example) swinging your tape measure in an arc before deciding what direction to move was verboten. The rule of thumb was “you measure, you move.” This meant, for example, that vehicle movements were often made in stages, as each short measurement you made just committed you to that distance, and you retained the freedom to measure a different direction for remaining movement distance you hadn’t measured yet. Flipping the tape measure on a shooting measurement to prevent pre-knowledge of assault moves was another common technique.

When the 5th edition rules came out and officially sanctioned pre-measuring for your own movement, I was a combination of discomfited and relieved. A little annoyed at the conflict with the traditional strong censure on pre-measuring, but mostly relieved, as I had certainly faced a good number of people who did things like swinging their tape measure in an arc to measure potential moves for their flyer or skimmer, and having that officially allowed meant I didn’t have to have uncomfortable conversations about it or sit there being annoyed.

IMO there is a conflict in the rules here, and I can understand how different players, particularly ones from different gaming backgrounds, can come to different conclusions on this subject. I think the Pistol example is strong evidence that the person who wrote the phrasing on the rules for measuring shooting distances did not take into account the conflict with pre-measuring shooting/assault. The fact that firing a pistol technically (under one reading, anyway) makes it legal to measure to a unit four feet away (thus giving you the range for your missile launchers in another nearby unit) seems to my mind to be clearly an unintended consequence resulting from sloppy wording.

Given the clear prohibition on not pre-measuring for shooting or assault, and the fact that processes exist by which we may satisfy the needs of both rules (determining whether the first shooting unit is in range, without pre-measuring another), such as by flipping the tape measure, I think using those alternate solutions best fits both the rules and their intent.

Flipping the tape measure over is not Kosher. It's too easy to 'accidently' get a couple extra inches of range that way.

Frazzled wrote:Ayah I'm not trying to be a butthead here, but the prepodnerence of the 'etiquette' is on the part of the shooter and a flipped tape measure screams "cheater" and "TFG" when there are easier methods as noted above. If Master "you call me a cheater I'll shoot in the Face" Frazzled is saying this smacks of cheating then there's a problem here.

Actually, not only are you trying to be a butthead, but your pretty much condoning thebehavior of the OP's opponent who clearly only wanted to know for countercharge purposes.

Around here we call that cheating.

It the tape measure is clicked open at 36 and locked in place, numbers up or numbers down its STILL 36". And your asking for some measurement thats half its range. You dont need to see the numbers.

It is hardly cheating. It is actually following the rules and is a rules-required measurement. The 'cheater' is the person refusing to measure.

carmachu wrote:

It the tape measure is clicked open at 36 and locked in place, numbers up or numbers down its STILL 36". And your asking for some measurement thats half its range. You dont need to see the numbers.

Except the rule book tells you how to measure. Closest model to closest model. NOT wave the tape measure around to make sure you are in range.

So how is following the rulebook cheating?

CptZach wrote:

Except the rule book tells you how to measure. Closest model to closest model. NOT wave the tape measure around to make sure you are in range.

So how is following the rulebook cheating?

Becuase your opponent is not asking to check for range of the weapon from what the OP is sounding off. He's doing it to get information about charging. It be no different if he were using his elbow to arm or premeasuring himself.

If one wants to make sure your in range, I'm ok. But when you start to make people do it to get information for charges and countercharges, well thats a whole different ballgame.

carmachu wrote:Becuase your opponent is not asking to check for range of the weapon from what the OP is sounding off.

Yes, he is.

He's doing it to get information about charging.

That's why he's doing it, sure. But it's not what he's doing. He's asking his opponent to measure the distance between the shooting unit and the unit he's shooting at. Any information gleaned from that is entirely beside the point.

carmachu wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Ayah I'm not trying to be a butthead here, but the prepodnerence of the 'etiquette' is on the part of the shooter and a flipped tape measure screams "cheater" and "TFG" when there are easier methods as noted above. If Master "you call me a cheater I'll shoot in the Face" Frazzled is saying this smacks of cheating then there's a problem here.

Actually, not only are you trying to be a butthead, but your pretty much condoning thebehavior of the OP's opponent who clearly only wanted to know for countercharge purposes.

Around here we call that cheating.

Carmachu, please don’t make disagreements with other posters into personal arguments. Insults are not cool.

carmachu wrote:If the tape measure is clicked open at 36 and locked in place, numbers up or numbers down its STILL 36". And your asking for some measurement thats half its range. You dont need to see the numbers.

Exactly. There’s no real chance of cheating there. It’s an easy procedure.

Extend tape measure (above the table, away from the models) out to requisite distance. Visually show the distance to your opponent so he can confirm you’re measuring the right distance. Lock. Then hold the tape measure upside-down so neither of you can see the numbers while you measure the exact distance.

The measurement verifies that the weapon is in range with equal accuracy as doing it right-side-up, without giving either of you additional information which would constitute premeasuring (either for your own other shooting units, or your opponent’s assault moves).

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:

carmachu wrote:He's doing it to get information about charging.

That's why he's doing it, sure. But it's not what he's doing. He's asking his opponent to measure the distance between the shooting unit and the unit he's shooting at. Any information gleaned from that is entirely beside the point.

Both myself and Kilkrazy have identified an apparent conflict in the rules for measuring shooting and those forbidding pre-measuring. I expanded on it a bit in my last post. Do you have any thoughts on what I posted?