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Let's be straight. You are TFG if you make me measure with broadsides when your ork battlewagon is in the middle of the table.

Agreed olympia! For certain.

G

Again, nothing says I have to tell him, that is assumption that we all, in general take for granted. I normally would have no problem telling him, but there is no rules precedent written for telling what you measured (actually they never specified that you had to show dice rolls either it's just taken on assumption). If someone is going to do something as blatantly against the RAI as measuring a 6" pistol to find the range on a model 50" away, then yeah... I'll go ahead and measure it, but nowhere have I seen that I have to share that info. Like I said I wouldn't want to play in such an atmosphere in the first place, but if you can out-lawyer the rules lawyers on their technicalities I see no reason not to. They caused the problem in the first place. When someone causes a problem you counter it by being a bigger problem because they brought it up. This goes beyond warhammer and into the game of life. If someone is being abusive of rules loopholes that everyone knows were not intended, I see no problem being an even bigger jerk to put them back in their place. Yes I measured it. The end. How does that make me look stupid? Sorry Red but rules lawyers end up looking stupid, or at least looking like jerks. Calling them on it, or questioning it, as the OP was, doesn't seem stupid to me. Assumptive rules are not rules. We use them because it is necessary to play a fun game, we do not abuse wordings for petty advantage... or you never know... someone might just start hiding their dice from you.

olympia wrote:Let's be straight. You are TFG if you make me measure with broadsides when your ork battlewagon is in the middle of the table.

Lets be straight, anyone who thinks different from me is a jerk and their arguments hold no relevance no matter what they say. I will just ignore them and continue to repeat they are wrong because they are a jerk.

It doesnt give you a time limit per turn either.

Say I go first. Im going to bugger off for 3-7 hours. If you give in or quit then it still counts as a win to me.

hiding your stuff is reason for doubt and will be cause no one to believe you without showing.

I always look at my opponents dice when he rolls. If he hides them and declares he even got 1 hit out of 100 He will have to prove it or count it as missed.

olympia wrote:Let's be straight. You are TFG if you make me measure with broadsides when your ork battlewagon is in the middle of the table.

Not at all. There are all manner of reasons that I might want to know the distance between the broadsides and the wagon. The rules indicate that you must measure. If you refuse, you're a cheat. If you don't want me to know that measurement, don't take the shot.

And, as the earlier poster said, calling someone TFG only means you have no real argument. Calling someone names because they want to follow the rules in order to gain information that they have a right to know isn't exactly stand-up-guy behaviour...

Whatever. It's obvious that some of you don't like the rules of the game. No amount of rational discussion is going to change your minds. The rules are clear on what's legal, and anything else is just your preference. If it comes up in a tournament, the judges will side with the rules. I'm unsubscribed from this thread.

Show me the rule that says I have to show you the measurement and I shall concede. All I see is that I have to measure it.

Guitardian wrote:

CptZach wrote:You realize measuring your hand and then putting it on the table to measure ranges is in fact premeasuring and cheating.

Just because you don't use a ruler doesn't make it ok...

No it isn't cheating... it's called breaking my thumb and having it measured at a doctors office for medical reasons, dude, entirely unrelated to the game. What? am I supposed to get some sort of mind-wipe so I don't remember it? Just because you are an accusing assuming person doesn't make it okay either any more than my 'cheating' is not okay to you.

I would rather just happen to know the length of my hand and have it be okay than just happen to be a dill weed and think that's okay.

When have you played a game where your hand does not touch the table? OKAY? then shut the hell up accusing... or deny me the right to play according to your sporty rules because I broke my thumb ten years ago. By that standard, anyone who wears size twelve shoes shouldn't be allowed to play either. They're cheating? I hate playing against deaf people, and jews and such too because they have unfair advantages.... while we're at it, anybody who isn't naturally dumb should not be allowed to play because they're cheating by outwitting their opponent. Don't worry, plenty of gamers will be just fine if that rule was being enforced.

our Dakka guitar hero is right. Further any carpenter or old school IG player can guess within an inch. I used to throw dice on the floor, guess the distances and use a tape measure to confirm just like I'd practice putting.

Guitardian wrote:Show me the rule that says I have to show you the measurement and I shall concede. All I see is that I have to measure it.

Show the rule that says I have to show you my dice when I roll them.

The ruleset does not cover every eventuality. It does tell you the things you specifically have to do, however. The rest it assumes people know. Things like measuring and rolling dice are considered fundamental parts of the game.

syanticraven wrote:

I always look at my opponents dice when he rolls. If he hides them and declares he even got 1 hit out of 100 He will have to prove it or count it as missed.

Where is that rule? What page?

Tell you what, you pre-measure all you want and I'll hide my dice from you and tell you what I rolled, and we'll call it square. After all, they're both legal.

puma713 wrote:

syanticraven wrote:

I always look at my opponents dice when he rolls. If he hides them and declares he even got 1 hit out of 100 He will have to prove it or count it as missed.

Where is that rule? What page?

Tell you what, you pre-measure all you want and I'll hide my dice from you and tell you what I rolled, and we'll call it square. After all, they're both legal.

qft

TFG follows the rules! Indeed, that is what TFG is all about: RAW to the core. If a battlewagon is in the middle of the table the maximum distance the broadside could be from the wagon is about 3' 7". Railguns have a 6' range! So if in this hypothetical situation you demand measurement you are a] Thick b] TFG (passive aggressive, slowing playing etc.).

olympia wrote:TFG follows the rules! Indeed, that is what TFG is all about: RAW to the core. If a battlewagon is in the middle of the table the maximum distance the broadside could be from the wagon is about 3' 7". Railguns have a 6' range! So if in this hypothetical situation you demand measurement you are a] Thick b] TFG (passive aggressive, slowing playing etc.).

I agree. I just think that there are a few people in these. . what. . four threads about measurement now? - that are finding out that they may just be TFG and they're not happy about it. Even Dash (the person that really got all this started) conceded that he will not use this tactic again and didn't think of it as a foul move until he heard all the retrospect.

As an aside: it's a funny thing too, Olympia when the "RAW to the core" players field their units, they don't always follow all the RAW rules to the core (as in, everything listed in the RAW FUN thread) - they pick and choose the ones that benefit them and then fight for those tooth and nail.

olympia wrote:TFG follows the rules! Indeed, that is what TFG is all about: RAW to the core. If a battlewagon is in the middle of the table the maximum distance the broadside could be from the wagon is about 3' 7". Railguns have a 6' range! So if in this hypothetical situation you demand measurement you are a] Thick b] TFG (passive aggressive, slowing playing etc.).

What's the cutoff point? Am I TFG if I ask you to measure when my BW is 2/3 of the way across the table? 3/4? 7/8? Where is the magical point at which I stop being a jerk for asking you to do something completely legal like measure a shot?

Which is in fact required by the RAW.

BRB Pg15 wrote:
1) Check LOS & Pick Target
2) Check Range
3) Roll to Hit

BRB pg17 wrote:
When you're checking range, simply measure from each firer to the nearest visible model in the target unit.

Wow I am a TFG for asking that.

pretre wrote:

olympia wrote:TFG follows the rules! Indeed, that is what TFG is all about: RAW to the core. If a battlewagon is in the middle of the table the maximum distance the broadside could be from the wagon is about 3' 7". Railguns have a 6' range! So if in this hypothetical situation you demand measurement you are a] Thick b] TFG (passive aggressive, slowing playing etc.).

What's the cutoff point? Am I TFG if I ask you to measure when my BW is 2/3 of the way across the table? 3/4? 7/8? Where is the magical point at which I stop being a jerk for asking you to do something completely legal like measure a shot?

Which is in fact required by the RAW.

BRB Pg15 wrote:
1) Check LOS & Pick Target
2) Check Range
3) Roll to Hit

I'm not so sure about the railgun issue. I mean, if the battlewagon is obviously in range, I don't mind measuring from my gun to the BW. I do it often. What I think is shady is measuring a 12" bolter all the way across the field, then using that information to find out things that have nothing to do with shooting.

Thing is, rules-wise, there's no difference.

puma713 wrote:

syanticraven wrote:

I always look at my opponents dice when he rolls. If he hides them and declares he even got 1 hit out of 100 He will have to prove it or count it as missed.

Where is that rule? What page?

Tell you what, you pre-measure all you want and I'll hide my dice from you and tell you what I rolled, and we'll call it square. After all, they're both legal.

Thank you automatically assume my argument against hiding dice rolls means that I am in favour of pre measuring. There is a difference between a discussion and twisting someones words to suit your argument.
I was merely stating that if the player hides their dice I will refuse to believe the player.

The rules state that you must measure range - It makes no reference to ignore doing so if a 'target is clearly within range'. If your opponent was attentive and asked you to measure the range then you should have. If anything, I think the sportsmanship of the thread's author should have been docked for his refusal to measure.

Preach on Olympia! Preach on. Your words will not go unheeded.

G

syanticraven wrote:

puma713 wrote:

syanticraven wrote:

I always look at my opponents dice when he rolls. If he hides them and declares he even got 1 hit out of 100 He will have to prove it or count it as missed.

Where is that rule? What page?

Tell you what, you pre-measure all you want and I'll hide my dice from you and tell you what I rolled, and we'll call it square. After all, they're both legal.

Thank you automatically assume my argument against hiding dice rolls means that I am in favour of pre measuring. There is a difference between a discussion and twisting someones words to suit your argument.
I was merely stating that if the player hides their dice I will refuse to believe the player.

You may not be "in favour" of it, but you certainly don't mind it - that is evident from your posts in the other measurement threads. And since (for some) it is equally as shady as me not showing you my dice, then you shouldn't have a problem with it. But you do. Starting to see where the other side is coming from with the pre-measurement stance? It's not about the legality, but about sportsmanship.

Black Blow Fly wrote:Preach on Olympia! Preach on. Your words will not go unheeded.

G

Good, I think the sarcasm didn't get through the first time.

Let's juxtopose some quotes:

olympia wrote:TFG follows the rules! Indeed, that is what TFG is all about: RAW to the core.

pretre wrote:
What's the cutoff point? Am I TFG if I ask you to measure when my BW is 2/3 of the way across the table? 3/4? 7/8? Where is the magical point at which I stop being a jerk for asking you to do something completely legal like measure a shot?

Which is in fact required by the RAW.

Wildeyedjester wrote:The rules state that you must measure range/

Ironic that the two proximate responses go straight to RAW isn't it? And this in a thread about etiquette.

puma713 wrote:

syanticraven wrote:

puma713 wrote:

syanticraven wrote:

I always look at my opponents dice when he rolls. If he hides them and declares he even got 1 hit out of 100 He will have to prove it or count it as missed.

Where is that rule? What page?

Tell you what, you pre-measure all you want and I'll hide my dice from you and tell you what I rolled, and we'll call it square. After all, they're both legal.

Thank you automatically assume my argument against hiding dice rolls means that I am in favour of pre measuring. There is a difference between a discussion and twisting someones words to suit your argument.
I was merely stating that if the player hides their dice I will refuse to believe the player.

You may not be "in favour" of it, but you certainly don't mind it - that is evident from your posts in the other measurement threads. And since (for some) it is equally as shady as me not showing you my dice, then you shouldn't have a problem with it. But you do. Starting to see where the other side is coming from with the pre-measurement stance? It's not about the legality, but about sportsmanship.

It doens't matter if I mind it or not. What mattered is that in a discussion you took my words, twisted to what you wanted to hear, and then stated them as that. That is bad manners and also a disrespectful way to act in an argument.

And In other threads I only stated it is Legal, and that it wouldn't bother me if my opponent done it. I never said It wasnt shady or it was, you took that yourself.
I'm confident that them doing that isnt what cost me the game.

However hiding the dice is slightly different. One situation is the opening up of information to both players - both can see the info and rule it; the other is withholding information not allowing the second player to see and their-fore not being able to rule upon it.

olympia wrote:Ironic that the two proximate responses go straight to RAW isn't it? And this in a thread about etiquette.

Okay, let's go back to the etiquette part of my question:

What's the cutoff point? Am I TFG if I ask you to measure when my BW is 2/3 of the way across the table? 3/4? 7/8? Where is the magical point at which I stop being a jerk?

syanticraven wrote:

puma713 wrote:

You may not be "in favour" of it, but you certainly don't mind it - that is evident from your posts in the other measurement threads. And since (for some) it is equally as shady as me not showing you my dice, then you shouldn't have a problem with it. But you do. Starting to see where the other side is coming from with the pre-measurement stance? It's not about the legality, but about sportsmanship.

#


And In other threads I only stated it is Legal, and that it wouldn't bother me if my opponent done it. I never said It wasnt shady or it was, you took that yourself.
I'm confident that them doing that isnt what cost me the game.

You're right. You didn't say anything about it being shady or not, simply the legality of it. I apologize for assuming. However, we're now talking about the "etiquette" of the move, not the legality of it. Most people agree that it's legal. More didn't like the move at all.

Just like me hiding my dice from you. I'm entitled to. It's legal. You don't like it though because of the "etiquette" of the game. We're talking about the same thing here, just two different situations are in place to illustrate it.

puma713 wrote:

syanticraven wrote:

puma713 wrote:

You may not be "in favour" of it, but you certainly don't mind it - that is evident from your posts in the other measurement threads. And since (for some) it is equally as shady as me not showing you my dice, then you shouldn't have a problem with it. But you do. Starting to see where the other side is coming from with the pre-measurement stance? It's not about the legality, but about sportsmanship.

#


And In other threads I only stated it is Legal, and that it wouldn't bother me if my opponent done it. I never said It wasnt shady or it was, you took that yourself.
I'm confident that them doing that isnt what cost me the game.

You're right. You didn't say anything about it being shady or not, simply the legality of it. I apologize for assuming. However, we're now talking about the "etiquette" of the move, not the legality of it. Most people agree that it's legal. More didn't like the move at all.

Just like me hiding my dice from you. I'm entitled to. It's legal. You don't like it though because of the "etiquette" of the game. We're talking about the same thing here, just two different situations are in place to illustrate it.

I know but if you look further into the thread I did say that if they request a measurement for their personal gain then it is within your right to measure as quickly as possible (in a legal manner) to show you they are in range but fast enough that they do not get any real information. As it is legal to do this. (some may also argue this is unsportsmanlike.)

I was also then making my point on the dice rolling thing.

CptZach wrote:
Ok, well I am bringing a black trash bag to cover up my models so you can't see their position on the table. I will be happy to tell you if you are in range of the ones you are shooting at.

Nothing says I have to show you where my models are placed...

Awesome. Let's play 40k Battleship!


"I'm going to shoot my long fangs 26" in this direction."

"Hit!"

So... the opponent gets to place your infiltrators and you get to kill your own guys...?

"You sunk your own Chimera."!!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Seriously:

Generally the game is played with:
-Open Lists.
-Open Rules
-Transparent Deployment.
-Transparent Transports.

Measuring ranges and letting everybody know causes the least disturbance and goes along with the Open/Transparent aspect of the game.

Sure, it sucks ballz if you screw up and are too close... but that's all your fault and not the opponents'.

You only have yourself to blame.

WOAH PEOPLE!!!!

How bout this for an argument.

What is the purpose of measuring in the shooting phase?
TO DETERMINE IF THE WEAPON IS IN RANGE TO BE FIRED? Yes?
Tape to max distance, Yup your troops fall in that range. Oh you wanna know how many inches? My range is 48'' its less than that. the end You wanna determine how far away i am during your turn shooting by all means go for it.

I love how all the anti-measuring responses just go off bullying the other side and calling them names.

This is NOT a case of rules-lawyering. The rules are perfectly clear in the matter.

The fact is, if you refuse to measure, YOU are the one being unsportsmanlike.

skyth wrote:I love how all the anti-measuring responses just go off bullying the other side and calling them names.

This is NOT a case of rules-lawyering. The rules are perfectly clear in the matter.

The fact is, if you refuse to measure, YOU are the one being unsportsmanlike.

qft