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Well, it's the end of the year, and I find myself required to write a term paper in my ancient history course. After the interwebz have turned up a blank, I shamefully turn my head towards dakka for help. Basically, I have to research an ancient civilization assigned to me by the teacher, and write a report and do a presentation on three advancements that they developed that distinguished themselves from their neighbours, and has made an impact in today's culture.
So I turn to my friends from Australia, New Zealand, etc for help. What do you know about your homeland?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/05/28 00:22:18
Night Watch SM
Kroot Mercenaries W 2 - D 3 - L 1
Manchu wrote: This is simply a self-fulfilling prophecy. Everyone says, "it won't change so why should I bother to try?" and then it doesn't change so people feel validated in their bad behavior.
The indiginous populations of Australia and New Zealand are very distinct. My knowledge is not brilliant on this subject but I thought the Moari were more closely related to the Polynesians.
Aboriginal culture is or was neolithic and very ancient.
Since European settlement their lifestyle has been repressed and would not generally be seen to be better than the colonial. So There has been no "advancement" in a western progressive sense for millenia.
The thing that distinguishes Aboriginies would be the concept of Dreamtime and the close relationship between mythology and place. The walkabout is pretty unique as far as I am aware, though other cultures may have a similar practice.
Dreamtime is pretty unique to Australian aboriginals.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Apologies to the antipodians if I have got it all wrong
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/05/28 00:44:04
Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Which culture are you researching?
The indiginous populations of Australia and New Zealand are very distinct. My knowledge is not brilliant on this subject but I thought the Moari were more closely related to the Polynesians.
Thankfully, it appears that my teacher does not know that, and I'll be able to use either, depending on which I get more information for.
Aboriginal culture is or was neolithic and very ancient.
Since European settlement their lifestyle has been repressed and would not generally be seen to be better than the colonial. So There has been no "advancement" in a western progressive sense for millenia.
The thing that distinguishes Aboriginies would be the concept of Dreamtime and the close relationship between mythology and place. The walkabout is pretty unique as far as I am aware, though other cultures may have a similar practice.
Dreamtime is pretty unique to Australian aboriginals.
Sounds interesting, I'll have to look into that.
Apologies to the antipodians if I have got it all wrong
??Antipodians??
Thanks for the help so far, this small post has been of more use than 2 hours browsing the internet.
Night Watch SM
Kroot Mercenaries W 2 - D 3 - L 1
Manchu wrote: This is simply a self-fulfilling prophecy. Everyone says, "it won't change so why should I bother to try?" and then it doesn't change so people feel validated in their bad behavior.
Antipodes
1. (Earth Sciences / Physical Geography) either or both of two points, places, or regions that are situated diametrically opposite to one another on the earth's surface, esp the country or region opposite one's own
2. the people who live there
3. (Placename) (often capital) the. Australia and New Zealand
4. (sometimes functioning as singular) the exact or direct opposite
Hence Antipodean, someone who lives in the nether regions
no worries, just hope it is helpful and accurate.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/05/28 01:13:55
Did you know that there are are Aboriginal rock paintings in Australia that date back more than 40,000 years? Think about that for a second.
Regarding ancient civilisations, did you also know that the settlements in Skara Brae in Orkney, Scotland, feature some of the earliest stone houses ever found? They even have sophisticated drainage systems and toilets!
I love stuff like that - I was like a kid in a sweet-shop when I went to the British Museum in London. My missus didn't get it at all. I was all like 'See these jade amulets? they're 7000 years old! 7000 years!!' and 'These clay tablets have the Epic of Gilgamesh on them - they're older than Christianity! Twice as old, in fact! THEY'RE SUMERIAN!!'
Albatross wrote:Did you know that there are are Aboriginal rock paintings in Australia that date back more than 40,000 years? Think about that for a second.
Regarding ancient civilisations, did you also know that the settlements in Skara Brae in Orkney, Scotland, feature some of the earliest stone houses ever found? They even have sophisticated drainage systems and toilets!
I love stuff like that - I was like a kid in a sweet-shop when I went to the British Museum in London. My missus didn't get it at all. I was all like 'See these jade amulets? they're 7000 years old! 7000 years!!' and 'These clay tablets have the Epic of Gilgamesh on them - they're older than Christianity! Twice as old, in fact! THEY'RE SUMERIAN!!'
Her response? 'That's nice'.
Bloody women.
Wait, cavemen using toilets and not gakking on the ground? MY MIND ASPLODED!!!
hmm in my opinion "New Zealand" ancient history will be 100X more fun and interesting (because its not ancient and therefore involves more cool stuff - I'm assuming we're talking human history here).
Back in the day I did indigenous Australian Studies at uni; I did a few units in Pacific history too, which I personally found a lot more interesting.
The single most useful link for you: http://aiatsis.gov.au/ Gradually a large portion of the collection is getting digitised. Some other useful links:
http://www.pictureaustralia.org/index.html (for images)
http://research.nla.gov.au/ (if you're looking for something VERY specific).
And of course: http://www.nla.gov.au/ - the great thing about the national library is that you can search the collection online (of everything that's ever been published in Australia + more), and if you find something you like, they'll photocopy it and post it to you.
The aboriginies of Australia were so underdeveloped they are one of the few groupings of people (I baulk at the word civilization as there wasn't any, just tribes) to never invent the bow and arrow.
Maori also make up a much larger proportion of NZ population (15% compared to 2% for Australian aboriginies), they signed a treaty to hand their land to the crown (In Oz the British turned up and took over on the most part) andthe All blacks do the haka.
For the 'Ka Mate' version the lyrics translate:
’Tis death! ‘tis death! (or: I may die) ’Tis life! ‘tis life! (or: I may live)
’Tis death! ‘tis death! ’Tis life! ‘tis life!
This is the hairy man
Who brought the sun and caused it to shine
A step upward, another step upward!
A step upward, another... the Sun shines!
Deep.
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Australia (Recently ravaged by the Hive Fleet Ginger Overlord)
Britain discovered Australia. Aboriginies invaded from New Zealand. And here we are 10 years later.
And yeah, I'd go with Maori history. Aboriginal history basically has the good Dreamtimes, and after that it's just a tragic footnote in Australia's place in the British Empire.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/05/28 08:00:30
Smacks wrote:
After the game, pack up all your miniatures, then slap the guy next to you on the ass and say.
Agreed with the other posters.
Australian Aboriginals may have interesting culture, but calling it 'civilisation' is a stretch. No permanent settlements, not cultivated land, no domesticated animals other than dingos (wild dogs).
About the only remotely interesting 'invention' was the boomerang. No metalwork, no wheel, no bow+arrow, no central leadership...
Ancient, yes. Culture, yes. Advancements and developments, not so much.
Trasvi wrote:Agreed with the other posters.
Australian Aboriginals may have interesting culture, but calling it 'civilisation' is a stretch. No permanent settlements, not cultivated land, no domesticated animals other than dingos (wild dogs).
About the only remotely interesting 'invention' was the boomerang. No metalwork, no wheel, no bow+arrow, no central leadership...
Ancient, yes. Culture, yes. Advancements and developments, not so much.
You don't need stone houses and roads to have a civilisation. You need communal values and traditions, and they had those.
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
The concept that you need stone houses and roads to have a civilisation is based on a predjuce of Western thinking that focuses on Romano-Greek culture.
According to that definition the Celts, Saxon and Viking culture is devalued as barbaric (a word derived from the Greek to denote non-Greek speaking peoples implying inferiority). In fact they had highly developed cultures.
To completely dismiss the Aboriginal Australian culture is simply to perpetuate a repressive colonial attitude.
Now the problem of adapting the Aboriginals to the project is difficult but that is an issue with the wording of the topic.
Nightwatch, when I said Neolithic, it was late here (that is my excuse and am sticking to it!)
The culture is much older than new stone age by a long ochre. iirc correctly it generally refers to a period of agricultural development and the first towns and cities c6000 bc
as Albatross has stated there have been Aboriginals in Aus a lot longer. again iirc 40,000 years ago would make them contemporary with the European cave painters in the Aurignacian period- or even pre date them, but don't quote me on that without checking on Google first
Cheesecat they were not cavemen on the Orkneys that built those dwellings. They would be a later development c3000 bc
The Orkneys would have probably been under 2 miles of ice 40,000 years ago. Cold enough to knack up yer plumbing!
Australia (Recently ravaged by the Hive Fleet Ginger Overlord)
•A civilization (or civilisation) is a complex society or culture group characterized by dependence upon agriculture, long-distance trade, state form of government, occupational specialization, urbanism, and class stratification. ...
-(Wiki)
Just saying...
Smacks wrote:
After the game, pack up all your miniatures, then slap the guy next to you on the ass and say.
Trasvi wrote:Agreed with the other posters.
Australian Aboriginals may have interesting culture, but calling it 'civilisation' is a stretch. No permanent settlements, not cultivated land, no domesticated animals other than dingos (wild dogs).
About the only remotely interesting 'invention' was the boomerang. No metalwork, no wheel, no bow+arrow, no central leadership...
Ancient, yes. Culture, yes. Advancements and developments, not so much.
You don't need stone houses and roads to have a civilisation. You need communal values and traditions, and they had those.
But they didn't.
Think of pre-European Aboriginal Australia as somewhere with this many main laguage groupings.
Each of those is made up of dozens to 100+ tribes of dozens up to close to 100 people.
Each of those tribes have different dreamtime stories/ceremonies/variation on the overall language.
There was no overarching aboriginal nation/civilisation as we would define civilisation today.
Aboriginal trackers, helping the English commonly ran into big problems as soon as they left there traditional tribal areas.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/05/28 11:33:13
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2024: Games Played:8/Models Bought:393/Sold:519/Painted: 207
2023: Games Played:0/Models Bought:287/Sold:0/Painted: 203
2020-2022: Games Played:42/Models Bought:1271/Sold:631/Painted:442
2016-19: Games Played:369/Models Bought:772/Sold:378/ Painted:268
2012-15: Games Played:412/Models Bought: 1163/Sold:730/Painted:436
Albatross wrote:I like the story about 'kangaroo' meaning 'I don't know'.
I'm sure it's probably apocryphal though.
It is - but I wish it weren't too!
I love it - it's like something from a Terry Pratchett novel!
Yes, like the explorer pointing to a mountain on a map and asking the native what it's called and the native says 'Your finger, you fool' in his own language.
Emperors Faithful wrote:•A civilization (or civilisation) is a complex society or culture group characterized by dependence upon agriculture, long-distance trade, state form of government, occupational specialization, urbanism, and class stratification. ...
-(Wiki)
Just saying...
No I agree as I said the problem is with the setting of the project and its wording.
Civiliisation has as its root the Greek word Civitas meaning City.
The point I was trying to make is that because a given culture does not have stone buildings, therefore no civilisation and are UN-civilised, infers a negative view of that culture.
Historically the city developed as I mentioned above with the emergence of agriculture in the neolithic period.
However, people didn't just suddenly start planting crops and domesticating livestock.
There was presumably some form of this activity taking place before the emergence of cities.
As for the rest, Aboriginals, like many pre industrial cultures still have complex social groups, probably have long distance trade (afaik the Paleolithic Europeans had long distance trading) There was no state to have state government. Some may see that as a blessing, as with occupational specialisation.
Ask any one who has worked on an assembly line and paid taxes
But that doesn't necessarily mean there is no form of governance in a community.
See mate, it's loike this. Long time ago a man called Crocodile Dundee went walkabout and came across an oasis in the desert, and there was a little shiny man nex to the water when he got there. "G'day, mate," he said, so this bloke (name of Bruce) told him to tell Queen Sheila to send all the most laidback blokes in England to prison in Oz for being too laidback and for wearing hats with corks on them. So he did that, after being bitten by some extremely dangerous giant spiders and having his jaw broken by a kangaroo. Queen Sheila and Crocodile Dundee's clever plan succeeded. Soon Oz was populated by sheep farmers, excellent cricket players, Kylie Minogue and their descendants. The end.
Orky-Kowboy wrote:See mate, it's loike this. Long time ago a man called Crocodile Dundee went walkabout and came across an oasis in the desert, and there was a little shiny man nex to the water when he got there. "G'day, mate," he said, so this bloke (name of Bruce) told him to tell Queen Sheila to send all the most laidback blokes in England to prison in Oz for being too laidback and for wearing hats with corks on them. So he did that, after being bitten by some extremely dangerous giant spiders and having his jaw broken by a kangaroo. Queen Sheila and Crocodile Dundee's clever plan succeeded. Soon Oz was populated by sheep farmers, excellent cricket players, Kylie Minogue and their descendants. The end.
(Pre-European) There is strong evidence of small localised pockets of organised agriculture (throughout Australia); permanent fish farms and traps (mainly in coastal NSW); permanent stone dwellings (again NSW); and a rich materialistic culture (mainly VIC).
But of course these are seemingly isolated sites.
Oh and just for lulz sake:
Estimates put first human habitation in Australia at potentially 60,000 years ago. They were people descended from 'Beijing man'. A second wave of migrants (Java man) occurred about 30,000 to 25,000 years ago.
Nightwatch wrote:Well, it's the end of the year, and I find myself required to write a term paper in my ancient history course. After the interwebz have turned up a blank, I shamefully turn my head towards dakka for help.
Basically, I have to research an ancient civilization assigned to me by the teacher, and write a report and do a presentation on three advancements that they developed that distinguished themselves from their neighbours, and has made an impact in today's culture.
So I turn to my friends from Australia, New Zealand, etc for help. What do you know about your homeland?
I would suggest checking out the library in your area. An excellent resource.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Nightwatch wrote:Well, it's the end of the year, and I find myself required to write a term paper in my ancient history course. After the interwebz have turned up a blank, I shamefully turn my head towards dakka for help.
Basically, I have to research an ancient civilization assigned to me by the teacher, and write a report and do a presentation on three advancements that they developed that distinguished themselves from their neighbours, and has made an impact in today's culture.
So I turn to my friends from Australia, New Zealand, etc for help. What do you know about your homeland?
I would suggest checking out the library in your area. An excellent resource.
Yes, we used to get information from actual printed books. When I was younger there was this thing called the card catalog, where you had to flip through alphabetized note cards to find where the books were.
Albatross wrote:Did you know that there are are Aboriginal rock paintings in Australia that date back more than 40,000 years? Think about that for a second.
Regarding ancient civilisations, did you also know that the settlements in Skara Brae in Orkney, Scotland, feature some of the earliest stone houses ever found? They even have sophisticated drainage systems and toilets!
I love stuff like that - I was like a kid in a sweet-shop when I went to the British Museum in London. My missus didn't get it at all. I was all like 'See these jade amulets? they're 7000 years old! 7000 years!!' and 'These clay tablets have the Epic of Gilgamesh on them - they're older than Christianity! Twice as old, in fact! THEY'RE SUMERIAN!!'
Her response? 'That's nice'.
Bloody women.
I know exactly what you mean, but for stuff that is even younger than that. I remember when I was in the UK we went to Canterbury Cathedral. I was just overcome by the fact that I'm in a building that is like 1000 years old. How many people had stepped on those stones on the way to worship? I stood where Thomas Beckett was martyred.
Logically, I know they may have replaced some of those rocks, and they were just stones after all, but think of all that happened in that building. The idea of 1000 year old structures is just foreign to the United States. Well, the natives built some megalithic structures and had middens, but I don't think they built in stone.
Albatross wrote:Did you know that there are are Aboriginal rock paintings in Australia that date back more than 40,000 years? Think about that for a second.
Regarding ancient civilisations, did you also know that the settlements in Skara Brae in Orkney, Scotland, feature some of the earliest stone houses ever found? They even have sophisticated drainage systems and toilets!
I love stuff like that - I was like a kid in a sweet-shop when I went to the British Museum in London. My missus didn't get it at all. I was all like 'See these jade amulets? they're 7000 years old! 7000 years!!' and 'These clay tablets have the Epic of Gilgamesh on them - they're older than Christianity! Twice as old, in fact! THEY'RE SUMERIAN!!'
Her response? 'That's nice'.
Bloody women.
That is all lies, how can there be 40,000 year old cave paintings when God made us all in his image 600 years ago, and then we all got off the ark, and then Chinese and Black and White people all came from Noah and his sons and then we used to ride dinosaurs to school and Stephen Hawkin is a liar and an idiot too.
Thats what my momma taught me at home school..
We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels.
Albatross wrote:Did you know that there are are Aboriginal rock paintings in Australia that date back more than 40,000 years? Think about that for a second.
Regarding ancient civilisations, did you also know that the settlements in Skara Brae in Orkney, Scotland, feature some of the earliest stone houses ever found? They even have sophisticated drainage systems and toilets!
I love stuff like that - I was like a kid in a sweet-shop when I went to the British Museum in London. My missus didn't get it at all. I was all like 'See these jade amulets? they're 7000 years old! 7000 years!!' and 'These clay tablets have the Epic of Gilgamesh on them - they're older than Christianity! Twice as old, in fact! THEY'RE SUMERIAN!!'
Her response? 'That's nice'.
Bloody women.
That is all lies, how can there be 40,000 year old cave paintings when God made us all in his image 600 years ago, and then we all got off the ark, and then Chinese and Black and White people all came from Noah and his sons and then we used to ride dinosaurs to school and Stephen Hawkin is a liar and an idiot too.
Thats what my momma taught me at home school..
Actually the time I've heard quoted is somewhere around 4600 years ( the actual value is very exact, I just forget what it is) which was determined by genealogy. That itself I think is flawed because you're assuming the genealogy of the bible doesn't skip "non-notable" people.
It would be easier if people would separate the internal spiritual world and the literal, observational, scientific world. But that is neither here nor there.
Oh yeah sorry, i typed a zero. They say its 6000 years old, and 4400 years ago we had a flood.
Makes way more sense!
We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels.
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