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Israeli commandos attacked a group of ships in international waters killing at least 10 civilians. The ships were en route to gaza carrying tons of humanitarian aid.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2010/may/31/israel-troops-gaza-ships

...but had point-blank refused to either work through existing Egyptian or other nationalities humanitarian aid efforts, which the Israelis have been allowing, or to submit to inspection for secret weaponry, etc...

I would rarely stick up for the Israelis, as there is two sides to this whole sorry mess. Whether the soldiers were attacked first or not, though, the Israelis are going to want to inspect any boat delivering anything to Gaza.

I guess we're supposed to be outraged.

But Im sorta thinking of 3 Israeli warships had been following my convoy- and told us to NOT attempt to break a naval blockade- I'd listen to them.

Theres more to this than the knee jerk reporting we're getting now.

Add into this the Turks are backing alot of this- they've been rather antagonistic in the region lately(look back at the threats they made with Greece not long ago).

From the early reading, it seems a reasonable response by the Israelis. The blockade exists for a reason, and they risked their own people in boarding the ships instead of attempting to disable them from range.

It's awful that people are dead, of course, and that opens up a whole other conversation to be had about Palestine as a slum dependant on international aid and Israeli permission to receive that aid, and the inevitability of a two state solution that lets those people start their lives again… but that’s beyond the scope of what the naval commander could do when faced with a ship trying to move past quarantine.

1. The Israeli blockade of Gaza is illegal.
2. Attacking civilian ships in international waters (80 miles west of Gaza) is illegal.

Also the Guardian is a typical 'evil jew lovely palestinian, carpets on the wall beardy greenpeace' paper, i cant read the link on my phone but i find they spin things a tad too much. You all know my feelings on this matter, i am inherantly biased in favour of Israel to the point where i freely admit it is somewhat illogical. As such my only response is 'good show chaps!' :-)

Lots of countries do things that are "illegal".

The blockade may well be illegal, in which case attacking them would be. Boarding those ships, however, is not. Which is what the Israelis did. As someone else pointed out, that is better than using long-range weaponry.

Israel is far from being the good guy in this whole wide-scale situation, but lets not automatically assume everything they do is evil.

The Turkish involvement will certainly complicate things. If the Israelis had just bulldozed some peace activists the U.S. State Department would express regret and it would be back to business as usual.

Anything where "Al Jazeera has just confirmed" and "Israel attacks" are in the same article doesn't really work for me...

There's a hidden clause in international law that says if your grandparents were in a concentration camp, you're allowed to kill people who had nothing to do with that and take their land.

mattyrm wrote:You all know my feelings on this matter, i am inherantly biased in favour of Israel to the point where i freely admit it is somewhat illogical.

Well, the idea of being pro-any country is fairly stupid when it's one's own country, and very stupid when it's somebody else's.

As such my only response is 'good show chaps!' :-)

People are dead.

mattyrm wrote:Also the Guardian is a typical 'evil jew lovely palestinian, carpets on the wall beardy greenpeace' paper, i cant read the link on my phone but i find they spin things a tad too much. You all know my feelings on this matter, i am inherantly biased in favour of Israel to the point where i freely admit it is somewhat illogical. As such my only response is 'good show chaps!' :-)

We all know of your irrational hatred of the Arab/Islamic world.

For the record the beardies have reported both sides of the story.
The black and white world view is yours.
Don't project it on to others.

It's political incorrectness gone mad

It´s a mess if only because it was in international waters and the excuse used by Israel board the ships is flimsy.

Also according to some news sources the Turkish nationals were soldiers. So a question arises for all of you defending the "peace" fleet and condemning Israel, what where doing members of the army of Turkey on those ships carrying supposed humanitarian aid to Gaza?

M.

ABC News is reporting that two Australians who were travelling on one of the aid boats have not been heard from since they were boarded.

lord_blackfang wrote:There's a hidden clause in international law that says if your grandparents were in a concentration camp, you're allowed to kill people who had nothing to do with that and take their land.

The British were forced into Concentration Camps? Great Scott!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:ABC News is reporting that two Australians who were travelling on one of the aid boats have not been heard from since they were boarded.

mattyrm wrote:Also the Guardian is a typical 'evil jew lovely palestinian, carpets on the wall beardy greenpeace' paper, i cant read the link on my phone but i find they spin things a tad too much. You all know my feelings on this matter, i am inherantly biased in favour of Israel to the point where i freely admit it is somewhat illogical. As such my only response is 'good show chaps!' :-)

are we going to get another "jolly good show [insert contry here]" group apperaing on facebook, I hope not

Don't inspire him, Ninja.

What? A country wants to take steps to prevent a known enemy group from possibly coming into possession of the implements to do harm, whilst simultaneously allowing that same opponent to receive humanitarian aid through other, more neutral channels? Illogical and outrageous!

/sarcasm

Good work Israel.

I will add what I always say about the Israel/Palestine situation, however.

Taking the land from the Palestinians was colossally stupid. We should have given the Jews Wyoming or something to call their own. It;s not like we're using it it for anything.

Unfortunately this is typical of the Isreali response to pretty much anything....
You throw rocks we throw rockets. You use sticks we use guns.

(Reuters) Israeli officials said the marines were met with knives and staves when they boarded the ships, which included a large ferry flying the Turkish flag. In at least one incident, an activist seized a gun from the boarding party, they said. A military spokesman said two pistols were found on the captured vessels.
Independent accounts of the clash were not available since the navy cut ship-to-shore communications and Israel imposed military censorship on reports of the operation.

Two Pistols (taken from IDF members)..... Knives and staves.... and since when did "Riot Dispersal Techniques" include Live Ammo and not dumdums?

Sorry if my attitude is counter to the popular but, it is based on personal experience.
Isreal is just as at fault as the Palestinians for the problems in that region. Neither believes the other has a right to exist. But Isreal has fallen back on the holocaust as a defense for atrocities that would have shamed Hitler. Bulldozing whole neighborhoods, launching rocket into public buildings, shooting people for throwing rocks. Gaza is Palestinian in name only as shown by the way Isreal treats the area. What it really has become is a form of prison camp. All imports are controlled very strictly by Isreal. Who comes and goes is controlled by Isreal. And Isreali soldiers frequently enter the area for no reason other than they felt threatened.

As the song puts it.... "Pharaoh has a new name." Isreal.

No no, i wouldnt go that far with the facebook groups.. Im not a one trick pony :-) . If you want an actual intelligent response instead ill merely say that i think Israel does behave aggressively, but i understand their stance considering the circumstances, they are the only real democracy in the area and since the Palestinians elected Hamas i have lost whatever sympathy i ever had for them. Nothing in life is black and white, there are a thousand shades of grey in between, and both sides are at fault in some way. But the constant bashing of the jews and ignoring overt support for a terrorist group from 'moderate' muslims and leftwing Europeans is ridiculously tiresome. Look how many European Muslims are openly support Hamas. If there was any chance there was weapons and munitions on that ship, and there was, then they had every right to go in. Better that than blowing it out the water. Frankly i think they show remarkable restraint. And yes seb, im aware people died, 4 of my friends from 40 commando have died in the last 6 weeks, but the world keeps turning. I dont expect their deaths to change any minds or make a difference, and i dont mention it to somehow give me a perceived moral high ground in a dakka discussion. Some British Muslims will still support Hamas and the Taliban no matter what happens, and i will still support Israel, through this and the many other violent and terrible events that wil no doubt occur in the future.

And now Isreal is blaming the organisers for the deaths. Yep, its their own fault people are dead, not Isreal. Don't blame the shooter, blame the victims.

Its alright folks, i am now home from work which means i can post more well thought out, easily read and intellectually stimulating responses.

helgrenze wrote:And now Isreal is blaming the organisers for the deaths. Yep, its their own fault people are dead, not Isreal. Don't blame the shooter, blame the victims.

Good show chaps!

I think Isreal is partly to blame for this but so is the aid convoy, trying to run a blockade is stupid why not go through the offical aid things in egypt, of cource they were going to get boarded.
the IDF is very heavy handed though watever happened to the warning shot across the bow

lord_blackfang wrote:There's a hidden clause in international law that says if your grandparents were in a concentration camp, you're allowed to kill people who had nothing to do with that and take their land.

There is another clause, where you are allowed to protect yourself from people who allied with the Nazi's to kill you. The arabs, under the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, worked with Hitler to kill Jews. Just because the Nazis were defeated doesn't mean the Mufti's followers ever stopped.

helgrenze wrote:And now Isreal is blaming the organisers for the deaths. Yep, its their own fault people are dead, not Isreal. Don't blame the shooter, blame the victims.

Just out of curiosity, if a cop shoots a guy running at him with a tacticool knife and the guy dies, who's fault is it?

The aid convoy was in international waters--80 miles off the coast in fact. The boarding action was an act of piracy.

Iran is thrilled. This will bring Turkey and Iran closer and make any sanctions against the latter very difficult to achieve.

If they tell you not to go through with your boat, then dont go. Im sick of these self righteous hippy types thinking they can do as they like. And im most amused they are stunned at what occured. Its the Isreali military!

If you ignore the signs on a coffee cup and you burn yourself, then its your own stupid fault. I dont see how its any different here, and the nationality of the people shot makes no difference either, i wouldnt at all be suprised if some Brits/Europeans or Ozzies were on the ship.. more fool them.

mattyrm wrote:If you ignore the signs on a coffee cup and you burn yourself, then its your own stupid fault.

But if the coffee is at boiling temperature rather than at the advertised temperature, McDonalds is in fact liable.

...what?

mattyrm wrote:If they tell you not to go through with your boat, then dont go.

We're not talking about the British navy who surrender to six Iranians in an inflatable raft.

Not a fair comparrison Warboss cosidering it was the israeli's leaping onto the boat armed to the nines.

Switch that around to the defenders, add the Israeli forces rep for shooting civilians, and who's fault was it folks died last night?

I think Israel once again went to far, but with the US, UK and other countries turning a blind eye to things they have condemed other countires for in the past, it'll carry on.

There's not point in either side talking about peace when both sides don't take it seriously, but yet again it is the innocent's that usually suffer. As has been proved again and again in that conflict, much as it was in Northern Ireland.