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I've just bought 10 Temple Guard and a Slann Mage Priest off ebay. If I'd bought them from GW, they would have cost me a total of £43.00. I managed to get them for £29.72 (including postage). As far as I can tell, this fellow is trading as a company (as opposed to somebody just off loading old unused minis) and the stuff is all Brand New In Box. How is he making a profit? Given my (better than) 25% discount, I'm not complaining. Just curious

Ya bud, it seems to me the pricing GW sets 'in Stores' ie Bricks/Mortar establishments, is a way of punishing Fans.

Australias prices are out of control, BTW!

I think most 3rd Parties buy at 60% usual retail, so I guess he's going for the high product turnover rate?

Either that or he buys up Bankrupt Stock from other retailers super cheap?

GW says they have a tiered discount system that prevents internet retailers from undercutting brick and mortar.. I certainly dont see it since I know plenty of online only stores that give 30% off

Fallen off the back of a lorry?

the standard discount to retailers in the us from wholesalers is 40% my friend that owns a game store can order about 75% of GW at that rate.

so after fees from ebay and related hes making 1-5% probably, but if your doing this kind of business model it means that they are going to volume.

and if they get enough volume they can get other discounts on the shipping and related.


Last i heard GW official mail order policy was maximum 20%, but if you have people selling at less then either GW isnt policing it, or they are getting it third party.

Its either bought off a business going out of business, or he has such high turnover that he can afford to make 5% profit or so.

this is why online sellers kill LGS and ruin the community.

The funny thing is, before the Internet, "the community" was more organised around clubs than shops, in the UK anyway, and there were more shops around.

It is also possible that ebay-ers are selling reproduced sprues...Unlikely if they are sealed in box, but more likely if you're getting just sprues (and they are always offering tons of sprue only auctions).

Sergeant Horse wrote:Its either bought off a business going out of business, or he has such high turnover that he can afford to make 5% profit or so.

this is why online sellers kill LGS and ruin the community.

GW have created this situation due to their pricing structure and business approach that punishes rather than rewards brick and mortar stores.

DispatchDave wrote:It is also possible that ebay-ers are selling reproduced sprues...

It's really not. The cost of plastic moulding is less than it was 10 years ago, but still not low enough to make that a feasible option for a garage operator.

insaniak wrote:

DispatchDave wrote:It is also possible that ebay-ers are selling reproduced sprues...

It's really not. The cost of plastic moulding is less than it was 10 years ago, but still not low enough to make that a feasible option for a garage operator.

True. Additionally, if someone is going to do reproductions, there is a higher profit margin on metal casts. Still, I can't help but wonder when I get items at more than 50% off...

Meh. Just go to China, where the stuff is produced, and buy it from out the back of the factory for massive profit.

agnosto wrote:Meh. Just go to China, where the stuff is produced, and buy it from out the back of the factory for massive profit.

That might work for Forgeworld stuff.. but GW's models are all still (for the moment at least) made in the UK and US.

I'm more inclined to think it's poor business models stubbornly held onto since the 1980's that are killing brick and mortar stores, but that's just me

My guess is some of these folks make their profit the following way:

1) Selling stock from stores that go under (My sneaking suspicion is this is the bulk of it)

2) What they lose in "sale" they make up for with exhorbiant shipping and handling ($10 shipping...really? The post was listed as $2.50...)

3) Maybe the slim profit margin some folks have mentioned. The product always just seems so random I dunno though. Probably some are.

Well, there ya go. Buy titans for $20 and sell them for $200 on ebay. Live in Shanghai and run the business from there.

1-UP wrote:
1) Selling stock from stores that go under (My sneaking suspicion is this is the bulk of it)

2) What they lose in "sale" they make up for with exhorbiant shipping and handling ($10 shipping...really? The post was listed as $2.50...)

^This

There are a great many, a whole culture in fact, that make a living off of purchasing stock from businesses that fold up and resell it well below MSRP.

I don't mean to take the thread off topic, but I think I need to respond to the folks that are claiming that recasting isn't profitable. GW has made it so, speaking as a recaster (not RESELLER mind you). 3 years ago, it was on the verge of being profitable, but now... if only you could see the setups I have... lol I even have a machine that cuts plasticard and cardstock for me for prototyping. The money I was going to spend on GW products I've invested in mold making and a prototyping machine. This weekend for example, I built an entire Warlord Titan, from the plans up in 3 days. GW is creating people like me with their insane prices, and I promise you that I'm a moral minority in this field; everyone that see's what I can turn out of my home production line begs me to sell it. The way I see it though is I used to spend around 300$ a month on GW products, books, modeling materials, figures, etc. and after only a years time, I recouped my initial investment into my machines, and my armies are still growing!

I just think it's important for people to realize that a lot of the good deals you're getting on ebay ARE recasts. I personally know of two others, one who only sells to people he personally knows (like a figure dealer!) and another that makes complete unposable casts of Rhino's and other large, fairly blocky items, rough paints and sells on ebay like wildfire. He can't even make enough to keep up with demand. Don't think for a second that we're the only ones that have been driven to this by prices. For me, it's not a question of if I could afford it or not (obviously), it was a question of value. GW isn't offering value anymore. Sorry.

As a Titan fanatic- Iwould LOoVE to see some of your work Lord M!!!

Our store at Ipswitch has virtually stopped selling Mi ni's.. Card Games seem to be more profitable for him now...YUCK

Flashman wrote:I've just bought 10 Temple Guard and a Slann Mage Priest off ebay. If I'd bought them from GW, they would have cost me a total of £43.00. I managed to get them for £29.72 (including postage)

Make that £28.72. He gave me a £1.00 off for combining postage. That's almost a £15.00 discount

If this transaction works out, I shall look out for this chap again. Part of the reason for the low price (I think) was the fact that the auction ended at midday during a working week. Suffice to say, there was no competition when I was bidding. Glad I was working at home today

Although it would be nice to support the brick and mortar FLGS, basic economics dictates that I seek out the best price especially when it's not exactly cheap in the first place. And anyway there are no FLGS in Southampton other than GW and they can go whistle for my custom until the company stops overcharging. Shame really, because I've no problem with the guys in the store.

Lord Manimal wrote:I don't mean to take the thread off topic, but I think I need to respond to the folks that are claiming that recasting isn't profitable.

I didn't say that recasting isn't profitable. I said that recasting plastic sprues isn't feasible for a garage operator.

You could reproduce the parts in a different material... but that's going to be a little obvious. Much more so than recasting metal miniatures.

Lord Manimal wrote:lol I even have a machine that cuts plasticard and cardstock for me for prototyping. The money I was going to spend on GW products I've invested in mold making and a prototyping machine.

What's this?
Details, man! Details!
Do not leave us hanging.

Of course, a new thread might be more appropriate.

Pictures, links to where we can get our own... DETAILS!

Do it. Do it now!

: )

Eric

Sergeant Horse wrote:

this is why online sellers kill LGS and ruin the community.

The community chugs along just fine with or without LGS. More LGS then not have ruined themselves and the community FAR more then ebay sellers every could.

Thats not to say that there arent good FLGS, there's one here on Dakka that sounds very good. But when I show up to the local LGS yesterday near me with $300 in my pocket for a new army, see they have games secduled for Wen and Saturday....and when I come to your shelves and there is literally nothing there, but a couple boxes and a sign that says "We can order anything".

Thanks for F'ing nothing. Thank you ebay sellers and online sellers for making my life easy. $250 down, $50 to go....

The conspiracy theories make me laugh.

I sell items at a loss on eBay all the time.

You put up a low bid and hope interest gets it as high as possible sometimes, it just doesn't.

Reproducing plastic sprues? Really? Injection molded plastic ones? Ha ha ha, just getting a mold cut out of aluminum for those is on the order of magnitude of 10k dollars, and then the industrial machinery needed to actually injection mold is either rented or incredibly expensive.

I hope that was a joke, if so, ha ha ha.

Augustus wrote:The conspiracy theories make me laugh.

I sell items at a loss on eBay all the time.

You put up a low bid and hope interest gets it as high as possible sometimes, it just doesn't.

Reproducing plastic sprues? Really? Injection molded plastic ones? Ha ha ha, just getting a mold cut out of aluminum for those is on the order of magnitude of 10k dollars, and then the industrial machinery needed to actually injection mold is either rented or incredibly expensive.

I hope that was a joke, if so, ha ha ha.

Not quite. You can get a used injection mold machine for about $4000 or less and the mold costs about 300-600
http://cgi.ebay.com/Negri-Bossi-NB-90-Plactics-Mold-Injection-Machine-/370387024194?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item563cc97942

It could also be a brick and mortar store that's sitting on a large stock of Lizardmen, and decided that it was better to sell them off at cost (maybe even a slight loss) to bring revenue in the door, instead of letting them sit around and just be an overhead expense.

agnosto wrote:

Augustus wrote:The conspiracy theories make me laugh.

I sell items at a loss on eBay all the time.

You put up a low bid and hope interest gets it as high as possible sometimes, it just doesn't.

Reproducing plastic sprues? Really? Injection molded plastic ones? Ha ha ha, just getting a mold cut out of aluminum for those is on the order of magnitude of 10k dollars, and then the industrial machinery needed to actually injection mold is either rented or incredibly expensive.

I hope that was a joke, if so, ha ha ha.

Not quite. You can get a used injection mold machine for about $4000 or less and the mold costs about 300-600
http://cgi.ebay.com/Negri-Bossi-NB-90-Plactics-Mold-Injection-Machine-/370387024194?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item563cc97942

Right, so you only have to sell, 4600$ worth of plastic men to break even, plus ebay and paypal fees, labor and materials costs, probably 8k or so, to break even counterfitting.

Hmmm,

They are probably fake!

EDIT: I wonder how they do the packaging? Probably a special package copy machine! Ah ha, conspiracy exposed, stealers! We got to find out who they are!

Augustus wrote:Right, so you only have to sell, 4600$ worth of plastic men to break even, plus ebay and paypal fees, labor and materials costs, probably 8k or so, to break even counterfitting.

Hmmm,

They are probably fake!

EDIT: I wonder how they do the packaging? Probably a special package copy machine! Ah ha, conspiracy exposed, stealers! We got to find out who they are!

I'm not saying I don't agree with you, I'm just saying it's possible. Besides, how many titans would you have to sell to make back your money? There's nothing that says they have to be made in resin...

I've got enough in the bank to buy the machine and get dies cut for a few sprues...I'm not going to do it because I'm lazy but that doesn't mean others aren't able/willing to do it....

It might explain some of the items on e-bay that are just in plastic bags...

agnosto wrote:I'm not saying I don't agree with you, I'm just saying it's possible. Besides, how many titans would you have to sell to make back your money? There's nothing that says they have to be made in resin...

It would be afar easier to make them in resin than to try to make them in plastic in an injection moulding machine...

I'm not going to do it because I'm lazy but that doesn't mean others aren't able/willing to do it....

It might explain some of the items on e-bay that are just in plastic bags...

As would the more feasible explanations that they're just breaking up battleforces and army boxes, or are purchasing clearance or damaged stock from stores, or that they have a trade account and can sell at a huge discount due to not having the overheads of a store, or any number of other far more likely possibilities.

insaniak wrote:It would be afar easier to make them in resin than to try to make them in plastic in an injection moulding machine...
.

Just out of curiosity. Why? It would be relatively cheap to send the parts to a die cutting place in China and have them make your dies to make plastics. A $300-$400 investment for dies off of a $400 something (not sure and too lazy to look up the exact price) warhound and you'd be able to make as many as you wanted. Plastic beads are next to nothing they're so cheap, compared to resin.

Breaking from that idea and moving on to running your own models that are not GW...
I'm just spitballing but the production costs are minimal compared with relative profit.
Here's a java tool that you can use to estimate costs.
http://kazmer.uml.edu/Software/JavaCost/index.htm