Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I do very well at most of the local tournament but I have been having trouble with our local power player (you know that one guy that has more money and time to spend on 40k then the rest of us). He runs a basic thunder wolf build with 2 troops in rhinos, 2 units of long fangs, and 1 large unit of cavalry with a wolf lord. I run a ork mech build with wagons w/deff rollas 1 loaded with 15 burnas and a kff and the other 2 have shoota boyz, 2 trucks with sluga boyz, lootas, rokkit buggies. Lol got lucky last time and did not have to play him but would really like to know how to deal with this unit next time around.

I would tank shock the cav units with def-rollas, trying to make sure you don't run over any of the ones with thunderhammers or fists, so they can't DoG with those models. The deff-rolla should kill one or two with average rolling, then you disembark and assault the remaining guys. Hope that the dice are on your side.

Who cares if the cavalry Tank shocks? They take 2d6 hits instead of d6 then. Since each hit has a 1/3rd chance to instantly kill a cavalry, 2d6, on average, kills two thunderwolf cavalry, for probably 100-120 points. (Invul save my ass, I don't take armor pen!)

Then they have to succeed on the DoG. They don't auto-pen, and even a pen has weapon destroyed results and tank stunned results.

Feel no fear, DoG them without the least little shame. Even if you die in the attempt, you take your points with you. 2d6 is MANY strength 10 hits.

P.S. Orks are not like 'umies and beakies. We is not scaredz of dyin'

With what you play the deff rollas are your best best.

If yuo are wondering what ork units could handle to cavalry:

Killa Kans! Init 2 (faster than thunder hammers) and str 10 with 3 attacks on the charge. You still only need 4's to hits and 2's to kill.

Would I not be better off loading them down with lootas or shoota shoots?

Vrakk wrote:With what you play the deff rollas are your best best.

If yuo are wondering what ork units could handle to cavalry:

Killa Kans! Init 2 (faster than thunder hammers) and str 10 with 3 attacks on the charge. You still only need 4's to hits and 2's to kill.

'cept cavelry can exchange their bolter with a Storm Shield. So it's 4s to hit, 2s to kill, but a 3+ invul

So a squad of 9 kans kills 2 - unless they can down one before the init 2 goes (Mark of The Wulfen can do it).

When I have played this matchup, you want to sacrifice a large squad of boyz to catch their initial charge. They'll seriously dent that squad, but you should still be fearless, and combat res will drop you to very few models.

However, careful choices with the casualty removal can ensure that boyz are in contact with as many wolves as possible.

Counter-charge in with a dread or kans or something - only the one wolf (not the one with the hammer), will be allowed to fight the dread, as the other wolves are engaged with boyz. Your dread or kans, however, get all their attacks on the wolves. They'll probably kill the rest of the boyz, but you should reduce them to the point where you can finish them in subsequent rounds, either by charging more boyz in or just with the walker if you get lucky.

It's not a sure thing, and, as is often the case, charging 30 boyz into the wolves when they're already engaged is never a bad solution to a problem.

RisingPhoenix wrote:

Vrakk wrote:With what you play the deff rollas are your best best.

If yuo are wondering what ork units could handle to cavalry:

Killa Kans! Init 2 (faster than thunder hammers) and str 10 with 3 attacks on the charge. You still only need 4's to hits and 2's to kill.

'cept cavelry can exchange their bolter with a Storm Shield. So it's 4s to hit, 2s to kill, but a 3+ invul

So a squad of 9 kans kills 2 - unless they can down one before the init 2 goes (Mark of The Wulfen can do it).

3 Kans with rokkits = 150pts. What is the cost of a loaded cav squad? And the cav will not destroy all the kans in one turn, if at all. If the kans kill 2 on the initial charge and 1 each turn after that they have done their job.
All of this doesn't help the OP though. With the mech list he need's to focus on the deff rolla. The lootas can put some wounds on put I would imagine they would have better targets like rhinos and long fangs.

also don't underestimate a squad of tankbusters with tankhammers

they wound on 2's and cause instant death, that could be pretty painful if enough of them get swings off.

Grundz wrote:also don't underestimate a squad of tankbusters with tankhammers

they wound on 2's and cause instant death, that could be pretty painful if enough of them get swings off.

The only problem is that for the tank hammers to live to swing yo will need a full squad. IIRC the cav get 5 attacks base - that means lots of dead 15point armor save 6+orks. And then most of the cav will get a 3++ save.

Vrakk wrote:
3 Kans with rokkits = 150pts. What is the cost of a loaded cav squad? And the cav will not destroy all the kans in one turn, if at all. If the kans kill 2 on the initial charge and 1 each turn after that they have done their job.
All of this doesn't help the OP though. With the mech list he need's to focus on the deff rolla. The lootas can put some wounds on put I would imagine they would have better targets like rhinos and long fangs.

The wolves can kill three kans in one round unless you take steps to avoid it. Five wolves on the charge = 25 rending attacks, hitting on 3s. That's 16 or so hits, and every rending '6' is a pen. It's not unlikely to get three pens in this scenario, and squad rules indicate that each kan will take one of them. Each hit is a 50/50 to kill it, again because they're a squad and immobilizes do that too. Add a thunderhammer as well, and the wolves are even more likely to drop three kans in a turn.

Nine kans - probably not, but nine kans will have been softened up by the long fangs well before combat is joined.

As for how to handle it with a battlewagon list - that's a tough one. A unit of burnas could dish out a large number of template wounds? if you hit 4 wolves with the templates, x 15, that's 60 hits, 20 wounds, six getting through armour saves? Not really enough. Maybe a squad of diversified nobs? But at least you can wound-allocate the same way that they can in that situation. And their Lord can really mess that up too, depending how he's kitted out. If you can get your warboss into the fight, his S10 powerklaw could make a difference, if you can keep him from dying before he swings.

Tank shock, kill one or so with the deff rolla. Place flame templete over them. Watch his squad go pretty much poof as they try and save 20-25 wounds.

dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/302356.page
Here is my list by the way.

Tank Shock morale tests are at -1, yes? So odds are quite good that Tcav fail their Ld7 save and trot 3d6 away? If you hop the Boyz out of the wagon afterwards , pretty good odds you can force them another 3d6 on the beginning of next turn. It's a bit of a gamble, but you can run a 250 point squad off without killing a single model. Add a small fleet of Trukks or more Battlewagons to just keep tank shocking until it works.

Tank shock morale checks are at straight LD.

sourclams wrote:Tank Shock morale tests are at -1, yes? So odds are quite good that Tcav fail their Ld7 save and trot 3d6 away? If you hop the Boyz out of the wagon afterwards , pretty good odds you can force them another 3d6 on the beginning of next turn. It's a bit of a gamble, but you can run a 250 point squad off without killing a single model. Add a small fleet of Trukks or more Battlewagons to just keep tank shocking until it works.

Why would the test be at -1? I don't remember any such rule. Also most TW units that are not currently fighting something have a lord or battle leader with them to give them better LD.

Kans and deff dreads are definantly not the answer. Most people forget about rending on the TWC, so they will shred the Kans at I4. It actually worse than Redbeard said because you also get to add in weapon destroyed results to cripple the kans. Without their DCCW, they are not killing anything.

Add that if your opponent is planning on having his TWC do most of the killing, those two units of LFs are going to make any S10 models on your side of the table a priority.

I honestly think your best bet is just to kill them with weight of attacks. S4 boys (on the charge), S8 nobs. Throw in a claw warboss on bike (not in BTB with the fist/hammer TWC) and just make him roll a ton of dice.

willydstyle wrote:Tank shock morale checks are at straight LD.

I must be thinking of pinning tests. Well, Rolla Wagons are still going to be viable, and Meganobz will perform reasonably well on a point-for-point basis. Five MANz will cost less than 4 kitted out Tcav, but will kill every model without a storm shield due to power weapon wound saturation. Very likely only 1-2 will walk away from the fight, however.

Lol so my only real chance of killing them is loads of dice? That's what I thought but hoping some one out there had found a better way around them.

Loads of dice are actually the most reliable answer for just about every problem in 40k. Lootas will actually function quite well against Tcav, especially if you get a couple front-loaded rolls. 225 pts for 9-12 wounds dealt is rough for a Tcav unit to absorb.

You don't really have to kill them before they reach your Boyz, you just have to put enough wounds on them that the PK Nob will start plinking models. A full Tcav squad is terrifying - 1-2 Tcav, one of which has a hammer, start dying at Initiative 2+.

Yup. IME, Redbeard's and Sourclams' advice is good. You can soften them up (put some wounds on, maybe kill 1-2) with Deffrollas, Lootas, or just a big squad of boyz. If you're smart with the casualty removal, you can keep all the wolves engaged with boyz, then charge in a squad of Kans, Meganobs, or a PK warboss so that they/he only engage one, preferably non-fist/TH wolf. The single wolf can't do significant damage to your counter unit, and you can give them the beatdown.

I also dig tank-shocking them anytime they don't have a wolflord attached. Ld8 has about a 1/3 chance of failing, so even two tank shocks give you about a 50/50 shot of breaking the doggies.

So would a nob sq work better than a burnas wagon?

What "I" do TWC have?

If the boyz get to attack 1st if they charge, then go all out with burna boyz.
Granted the templates do enough damage as it is, but using them as power weapons instead work wonders against anything that needs a 3+ or better save to survive.

I'd try and get close enough to open up with the burnas 1st, which in theory should thin them a little bit.
After that the pups should pop the wagon, but you then have 15 boyz all with power weapons to use.

As with many strong units, Ghaz. I have smoked many TWC with him, and he fits very well in a mech army.

Even better, knick them with the deffrolla, then unload Ghaz.

Yeah I do love Ghaz but have trouble finding points for him. I am working on a list with a large Nob unit and will post how it dose.

throw 30 boyz at a unit of them and they will go down. trust me i do it all the time.

LOL yeah but its hard to do that in a Mech build.

I'd still go with 15 Burna Boys in a Battlewagon. Get close, hit 4 with a template, and now you have 60 S4 wounds to roll.

Is that really not working? It would seem to be ideal, based on the number of hits you get.

italiaplaya wrote:throw 30 boyz at a unit of them and they will go down. trust me i do it all the time.

Did you mathhammer or was it just a random suggestion? Squad of 5 TWC (1 with pf), with say 24 normal attacks (before the pf strikes) will kill 10 boys on avg. 20 boys strike back, 80 attacks on the charge, 40 hits, 13/14 wounds, 4-5 unsaved wounds. Pfist from both sides strike, more boys dead and more wounds on TWC. Boys lose combat and take fearless saves. Next turn, remaining boys wounds on sixes.
Do you not mathhammer? I wonder how on earth you have a record of 29/3/2... ...

As a Space Wolf player, I'll give you the best advice I can: Tank shock with Deff Rollas, rinse and repeat.

You're going to hit the unit and take a couple out, if you have multiple wagons, the more the merrier. At this point, the Wolves are either running from Failed Leadership, are dead from wounds, or dead from failing Death or Glory...why someone would Death or Glory a Battle Wagon is beyond me; then again, I keep Long Fangs around to ensure those battle wagons don't get the opportunity; however, I digress.

The fact of the matter is, basically everything on foot will only act as a Speed Bump against Thunderwolves which can work out for you in the end; however, in a Battle Wagon list, it's not worth the effort. At this point, Tank shock and focused assaults are about the best you can do...

And if you want a Thunderwolf unit to prepare for; here's my Standard:

4x Thunderwolves
1 Thunder Hammer, 1 Storm Shield, 1 Boltgun, 1 Standard -260 points

All diversified and all that jazz.

Davicus wrote:

italiaplaya wrote:throw 30 boyz at a unit of them and they will go down. trust me i do it all the time.

Did you mathhammer or was it just a random suggestion? Squad of 5 TWC (1 with pf), with say 24 normal attacks (before the pf strikes) will kill 10 boys on avg. 20 boys strike back, 80 attacks on the charge, 40 hits, 13/14 wounds, 4-5 unsaved wounds. Pfist from both sides strike, more boys dead and more wounds on TWC. Boys lose combat and take fearless saves. Next turn, remaining boys wounds on sixes.
Do you not mathhammer? I wonder how on earth you have a record of 29/3/2... ...

Maybe you should look at your own mathhammer. Also, the 30 boys unit costs 220, the TWC squad you described costs 275.

24 TWC attacks with WS 4 = 12 hits which equals 8 wounds. I'll give you 2 of those as rending. That's 2 orks dead, out of the other 6 wounds, the orks should save 1 and put one on the nob - for a current total of 6 dead orks. Now the orks swing 92 attacks, 46 hits, 15 wounds, 2/3 save. Since your squad is not diversified that's 2 dead and a wound on another. Fists now go. Cav fist has 5 attacks, say 3 hit - kill 3 orks for a total of 9 dead orks and 10 total wounds. Nob hits twice - 2 more wounds - killing another cav and a wound on another. Cav gave 10 wounds, orks 7. Orks loose 3 more to fearless wounds. At the end of combat there are 2 TWC left, one normal and one pfist and one of them has a wound. Orks have the nob and 17 boys.

Next round, assuming no one else joins in. Normal cav swings with 5 attacks, 3 hits, 2 wounds - 2 orks die. 15 boys swing with 45 attacks with 22 hits and 4 wounds, with 2/3 save that is 1 more wound. Pfist takes a wound. pfist cav swings, hits twice, kills 2. Nob hits and wounds twice - finishing the cav.

So, TWC dead and the orks have 13 boys and a nob left, and spent 55 less points. Notice also that I rounded in the favor of the cav and against the orks yet the orks still win comfortably.

Moral of the story, Space Puppies should stick with their long fangs and razorbacks and leave the close in fighting to those better suited for it. Orks never loose, especially to silly mathhammer.