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LIKE THIS: http://www.vanhammer40k.com/node/21

see game 3 report.

Or you could not assume that the TWC are not diversified, as they will each take a bolter or accessory or melta bomb differently, and the combat will not go so well for orks.

I was only replying to the unit he listed. If they are diversified (and now they cost more) here we go.

Looking at my example, the ork boys dealt 5 wounds on the charge and the nob deals 2. If you spread the 1st 5 out and give each of the cav a wound, the nob finishes 2 of them. So there is one more cav at the start of the next assault phase but the remaining 3 cav each have a wound. That is 5 more attacks, 2-3 hit, 1-2 wound. So the orks lose 2 more before they swing, taking away 6 attacks. It means the combat goes one more round but the orks still win - and for less points.

I was running a a kan wall and 6 kanz took a thunder wolf assault and died, then I assaulted with fresh unit of nobz of equal points plus 30 boyz. That pretty much did it. Both units took heavy casualties but I killed his one big scary unit. But I think ideally I would never assault thunder cav with less then two units of nobz.

Vrakk wrote:

Davicus wrote:

italiaplaya wrote:throw 30 boyz at a unit of them and they will go down. trust me i do it all the time.

Did you mathhammer or was it just a random suggestion? Squad of 5 TWC (1 with pf), with say 24 normal attacks (before the pf strikes) will kill 10 boys on avg. 20 boys strike back, 80 attacks on the charge, 40 hits, 13/14 wounds, 4-5 unsaved wounds. Pfist from both sides strike, more boys dead and more wounds on TWC. Boys lose combat and take fearless saves. Next turn, remaining boys wounds on sixes.
Do you not mathhammer? I wonder how on earth you have a record of 29/3/2... ...

Maybe you should look at your own mathhammer. Also, the 30 boys unit costs 220, the TWC squad you described costs 275.

24 TWC attacks with WS 4 = 12 hits which equals 8 wounds. I'll give you 2 of those as rending. That's 2 orks dead, out of the other 6 wounds, the orks should save 1 and put one on the nob - for a current total of 6 dead orks. Now the orks swing 92 attacks, 46 hits, 15 wounds, 2/3 save. Since your squad is not diversified that's 2 dead and a wound on another. Fists now go. Cav fist has 5 attacks, say 3 hit - kill 3 orks for a total of 9 dead orks and 10 total wounds. Nob hits twice - 2 more wounds - killing another cav and a wound on another. Cav gave 10 wounds, orks 7. Orks loose 3 more to fearless wounds. At the end of combat there are 2 TWC left, one normal and one pfist and one of them has a wound. Orks have the nob and 17 boys.

Next round, assuming no one else joins in. Normal cav swings with 5 attacks, 3 hits, 2 wounds - 2 orks die. 15 boys swing with 45 attacks with 22 hits and 4 wounds, with 2/3 save that is 1 more wound. Pfist takes a wound. pfist cav swings, hits twice, kills 2. Nob hits and wounds twice - finishing the cav.

So, TWC dead and the orks have 13 boys and a nob left, and spent 55 less points. Notice also that I rounded in the favor of the cav and against the orks yet the orks still win comfortably.

Moral of the story, Space Puppies should stick with their long fangs and razorbacks and leave the close in fighting to those better suited for it. Orks never loose, especially to silly mathhammer.

First, he said 30 boys finishes off 5 TWC. My answer is no, it doesnt happen. We are not talking about pt efficiency here. So nice try at acting smart.

I had meant it to be 30. But nvm 24 shall be it. Factoring rending probability and ork boys making their tshirts saves, 6 boys are dead. 23 Boys strikes back, 46 hits, 15 wounds, 5 wounds unsaved. Pf from TWC kills another 2 ork boys rounded down, and nob strikes fist, and probably kills 1 TWC or none. - because of storm shield (oh and don't act smart and say there shouldnt be SS. People take 1 or 2 for allocation). TWC dealt 9 wounds in total, versus 6. Ork squad takes 3 fearless saves. TWC has 1 pf + 3 normal alive because of wound allocation (of course bad stuff can happen, but you average things out when you math hammer)
Next turn, left over boys strike with 3 attacks each, wounds on 6, and i decided not to insult your intelligence with further hammering.

Moral of the story: Orks may not lose, but will definitely suffer in the hands of incompetent generals who cant mathhammer properly and makes decision that are non favorable :-).

Oh, and as if I haven't prove you wrong enough, TWC with their fleet + 12" assault, WILL charge the boys more often than not. Of course you can use meat shields, but that's a different story altogether.

Vrakk wrote:

RisingPhoenix wrote:

Vrakk wrote:With what you play the deff rollas are your best best.

If yuo are wondering what ork units could handle to cavalry:

Killa Kans! Init 2 (faster than thunder hammers) and str 10 with 3 attacks on the charge. You still only need 4's to hits and 2's to kill.

'cept cavelry can exchange their bolter with a Storm Shield. So it's 4s to hit, 2s to kill, but a 3+ invul

So a squad of 9 kans kills 2 - unless they can down one before the init 2 goes (Mark of The Wulfen can do it).

3 Kans with rokkits = 150pts. What is the cost of a loaded cav squad? And the cav will not destroy all the kans in one turn, if at all. If the kans kill 2 on the initial charge and 1 each turn after that they have done their job.
All of this doesn't help the OP though. With the mech list he need's to focus on the deff rolla. The lootas can put some wounds on put I would imagine they would have better targets like rhinos and long fangs.

Hmm. That is an interesting question.

Thunderhammers hit on 3+, and Pen on 3s. 4 attacks. Assuming average results, that's 2 pens. Distributed across the squad, that results in, on average, one vehicle destroyed (Immobilized, wrecked, explodes) and one other.

The rest depends largely on what weapons they bring. With 5 attacks, rending becomes a very real, very nasty problem. So on average, the Kans will probably lose 1 (at least) before they get to attack, get their normal attacks, then the thunderhammer will take one down. The last one will be cleaned up on the ork player's turn. The cavalry will, at worst, lose their stormshield (if they only brought one, that sucks), but most likely be unharmed.

If you're lucky, one took melta bombs, and they trash all 3 kans, allowing the ork player to potentially charge/rolla them on their turn, but frankly the most likely result is the thunderhammer/rending combo needs 1 more turn to clean up the kan mess.

Answer: Don't throw kans at Thunderwolves, kthx.




ETA:


Seriously, what's with all these scenarios where the Thunderwolves get charged? They move 6", fleet of foot run, and charge 12." Yes, vehicles can get them there, but I see 30 strong boy mobs being tossed around. Assuming that a SW player wants to toss his cavalry into that, they're getting charged, not visa-versa.

Also, large units of TWC take at least 1 SS, because throwing missiles and lasers at them is the best way to make them go away without one. Dear god you do not want to fight them in close combat.

Lol looks like my best bet is to shoot as many shots as possible then try to get the assault in first.

sickening wrote:Lol looks like my best bet is to shoot as many shots as possible then try to get the assault in first.

You. Won't. Move 6". Fleet. Charge 12".

The best way you can get assault in is run up a trukk 12", disembark, and charge. Then you get to see what trukk boyz do to thunderwolves on the charge (hint: Get a new trukk).

Just keep volume of firing them.

No, you get the charge because you let them charge you where you want them to.

Read back a few posts and see what I posted about giving up the sacrificial unit. That sacrificial unit not only takes their initial charge, but bases enough of them that they can't thin out your counter-charge unit either. You're not going to just beat a 250 point assault unit like TWC without losing something in the process. They're not going to drop to shooting unless you're really lucky, and they're going to get a charge on something. The key is deciding where they are going to assault so that you can follow that up with the blow that kills them.

Well is I use my RPJ to move 7 and shoot so he will need 6s to hit my wagon I can survive longer. Now if I make him force me out of the wagon I will have a much better chance of getting the aassalut. Lol man I just feel like I will be focusing my whole army on his one unit leave the rest of his units to do as they please.

Two problems I am seeing with the logic being tossed around right now:

1) The Thunderwolves will be isolated

2) There will be full units to sacrifice/assault

If you're playing a smart Space Wolf, they will never, ever isolate their Thunderwolves due to the fact that anti-tank shooting will take them down like anything else. Additionally, like any other deadly squad, they will get bogged down eventually and that eventuality is something you always have to be prepared for. If they charge a mob of 30 boys, it is probably because they've taken into account the neighboring units and brought the hammer down with firepower weakening the counter charge. Additionally, no one in their right mind lets a boy mob stay at 30 boyz past turn 1.

The fact of that matter is, you can ill afford to sacrifice units when playing against Thunderwolves because the backup for them will be ready and willing to shred the left overs.

Here's a typical 1500 point list I run:

H.Q.

Canis -180

Wolf Lord
Thunderwolf Mount, Storm Shield, Runic Armor, Frost Blade, Wolf Tooth Necklace, Saga of the Warrior Born -265

Troops

Grey Hunters 5x
Flamer, Razorback: Twin Linked Lascannon -150

Grey Hunters 5x
Flamer, Razorback: Twin Linked Lascannon -150

Fenrisian Wolves 12x -96

Fast Attack

Thunderwolf Cavalry 4x
Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield, Bolter -260

Heavy Support

Long Fangs 5x
4x Missile Launchers -115

Long Fangs 5x
4x Missile Launchers -115

Long Fangs 5x
2x Lascannons, 2x Plasma Cannons -165

Total: 1496

Ok well lol this is about how should orks deal with this unit now about how they can't. You sound like a very good wolf player so what do you think a mech ork build has that will give you problems?

Wow, geez. You could take an entire second Thunderwolf Cavalry Squad for what you're spending on that Wolf Lord. Seriously man, ditch him, that's the classic upgrade point sink.

Also, it's not a terrible idea to shatter a squad of wolf guard, and attach them to the long fangs and marines, to max out the capacity of the razorbacks and give them more options - or for the Long Fangs, an ablative wound.

Edit: Seriously, did the points. 5 man wolf guard squad. 3 vanilla in power armor for ablative wounds in long fangs packs (you can take 1-2 with storm shields if you don't think you'll have 3 pieces of cover to hide the squads in). 2 with Power Fists (2 attacks rather than 1) and Storm Bolters. 136 points total. Toss two marks of the wulfen on the grey hunters squads to bring them to 165. Toss two Fenrisian Wolves on Canis (he's not an IC) and find somewhere for 100 more points.

That's a pretty tiny 1500 point army. A little going wrong (llike Snikrot in your backfield) can make a huge impact.

DeffKoptas cracking your razorbacks in first turn assaults, Snikrot playing with your fangs in the backfield, three trukk boys units with a 27" assault range dumping 33 boyz and 3 PK nobs on your cav, dumping a sacrificial unit to tie up the Cav while the rest of the army pants your 10 scoring troops.. All effective methods of dealing with the army

As to TWC in general, as had been said before, forcing them to take as many saves as possible is the most likely answer, especially if equipped with SS

Orks biggest threat is that they have incredible speed as compared to Imperials, with that said, you have to be mad aggressive to counter a list that is almost as aggressive. A single lord with a Thunderwolf unit is simple to deal with. Run your battle wagons up and don't bother shooting.

When you move your wagons up 13 with the Red Paint job, you will be in your opponents deployment zone. Oh, and before I forget to say it, I would advise going second in your case with 3 battle wagons. As long as his long range shooting is just in the Long Fangs, you can present front armor and smile as your KFF saves frustrate the random shots getting through your armor. At this point, if he is ultra aggressive, he will move up his monster unit. You respond in kind by running up with your wagons and tank shocking them into the perfect set up, they will take handfuls of wounds and you'll be in the green, because at the point the Burnas should be able to finish them off. The rest of your army can concentrate on everything else he has as the Grey Hunters in Rhinos will be easy peasy when you get done with the lord and well...Long Fangs are Long Fangs...just choppem up and you'll do fine. Trust me, Thunderwolves are only scary when you let them beat you mentally...just separate them from the rest of the army and enjoy your victory.

@Rising That Lord and Canis ride together with the Wolves for ablative wounds...Between those 3 units they have mauled 30 boyz as if they were lunch meat sandwiches...everything in that 14 man cluster is Initiative 5, the wolves by themselves have 36 attacks on the charge...Canis would probably have about 12 attacks with Boyz wrapping around him and the Lord would have 7 attacks...gaining an extra attack for every boy he mauls...he's really there for the ridiculousness.

@Kroot...basically, you're assuming I leave myself open to such small occasions. Deff koptas getting first turn assaults...if they get first turn. I have my Razorbacks wrapped by my wolves so you have to hit them first. Snikrot shows up, that's cool. At that point the Thunderwolves just become a Counter Attack force and hang out for the boss and his gang to show up. 33 Boyz and their 3 Trukks...amazing, never thought I had to be afraid of a Land Speeder that carried Orks.

I thought Orks had the same solution for every problem: MOAR POWER KLAWS!

Tank shocking is your best bet. There's always the odd chance that they'll run away and you can chase them off the board with your Wagon, too.

Lol I hope to pull my wolf army for the first time this weekend (lol no TWC). Ok every one keeps saying to deff rolla them but I could see it having a good chance of doing nothing. Would I not be be better off moving 7 and shooting then let him attack the wagon and then assault then next turn after they get 2 rounds of shoota boyz shots?

I would get the across the board as fast as possible personally, your Shoota Boyz will be better used in Close Combat than in shooting against the Wolves, not to mention mauling the rest of the army. If you lose a battle wagon or two in this way, you have gained about another turns worth of foot slogging and will be closer to your opponent.

Your biggest strength is assault so use it at any opportunity that you can.

Lootas
Ghaz


When I run TWolves, those are my main concerns...

A burna wagon should be able to put the hurt on those TWC. Never underestimate the power of 15 flame templates.

Nob bikerz should be able to deal with TWC.

Funny no one has said nob bikers before now.

Redbeard and Sourclams have the right idea.

I would first with range torrent the squads down. WIth the exception of a wolf lord on TW mount, they have a +3 save and T5. 1 or 2 of the TWC will have a SS.

At range: Lootas, big shootas, rokkits

Mid range: shootas

Hth: Warboss. Charge the warboss into the non-powerfist and let the nobs eat the rest of the squad. TWC w/ powerfist are S10 and can instant kill your Warboss who is valuable in instant killing TWC. As a last resort throw boyz at him though you will lose 10-15 per round depending on combat rez.

TWC will eat Nob bikers unless the TWC are hurt badly. Some of those TWC got Stormshields and use the same wound allocation to avoid easy deaths. Most likely the Wolf Lord will be there and they can Instant kill Nobs where as you need 2 wounds to kill a single TWC. Lose 4-5 nobs and that will result in you falling back and losing +600 points. Dont forget they will have longfangs and JotWW to try to snipe nob bikers.

I think the best way to go about this is worst case analysis while being practical in regards to what the SW player will bring. So first assume there are at least 3 Thunderwolves per squad, they all have stormshields, one is equipped with a power fist of thunderhammer and the unit is fully complex. Next attach a Wolf Lord mounted on a thunderwolf with stormshield, power fist or thunderhammer, runic armor and wolftooth necklace. The Wolf Lord and the Thunderwolf with power fists/thunderhammers can insta gib nobs and warbosses. This is what you have to beat down and some SW players are fielding two of these combined units... They are basically the new nob bikers for 2010. Thunderwolves are fast so while it's going to be hard to engage them, their sole purpose is assault so it's not like they are going to run away from the orks all game. I think it's best to assume that the Thunderwolves will get the charge so you have to start from there. As Redbeard has wisely suggested you need a bait unit that can take a charge and lock down the Thunderwolves for a turn so you can then countercharge. IMO Ghaz is your best bet versus Thunderwolves if you are really serious about beating them down. He is going to definitely get some wounds through their stormshields and insta gib a few. There's not much you can do if the SW player's dice are hot besides throwing weight of numbers at them. One of the biggest problems versus Thunderwolves are the Long Fangs... It's very hard to reach them and they are blasting away with their missiles. Battlewagons are great versus missiles... You want to get up in their grille with all yer dead ard stuff. One tactic that can help is to run a squad of stormboyz lead by Zagstruk so you can deep strike & assault some Long Fangs the same turn... While risky it is an easy means of shutting down a unit of Long Fangs. Lootas are also great as you can torrent either the Long Fangs or TWC.

G

My best solution is to weaken them with lootas and finish the job with kans and boyz, as I don't run battlewagons. The TWC will pen the kans on a 6 for their penetration roll what with being rending, but along with some boyz will usually do the trick. Most of the time I see these guys used as an assault unit rather than a counter-assault unit, and they tend to not be well supported (they kinda dive into the horde, eat a chunk, then get mobbed by the rest of the nearby horde while the rest of their army tries to shoot.) It's too tempting for most players to not use their charge to outpace the rest of their army into CC (because otherwise they're getting shot up.)

If they're out of LoS in a counter-assault role I think is where they're more dangerous, but it's hard to achieve this with more than 2 or 3.

OP:

I have three things in my mechanized orks that I use to deal with Thunderwolf cavalry and all other deathstar units:

1. Deffrollas.
2. Burnas: Either 15 templates coming out of the wagon, or 15 burnas assaulting in with power weapons.
3. Ghazghkull Thraka.

On the Waaaugh! he's a 2+ invulnerable save, fearless, and STR10. If you're playing 1500+ points and running mechanized - bring Ghazghkull. Find the points for him.

Burnas don't help much against thunderwolves.

In assault, unless you've already locked onto some of the wolves, they're getting counter-charge, and a whole lot of attacks that will cut your number of power weapon attacks down in a hurry, combined with their stormshields that will blunt the strength of such an attack.

Shooting, the burnas are better, but realistically, those wolves are on big bases. If you get four of them under the template, you're looking at 20 wounds, but they're 3+ saves, and they're spreading the wounds, so you might kill one or two, and put wounds on the others. That's good, but there are a lot of them still there.

I had 4 wolves (only 1 carrying a wound) take 4 flamer hits from the remnants of an IG 50 blob.

I ended up with 1 wolf standing.

Flamers are the goods.

Theres simply only so many 3+ rolls you can make (in my case it was an atrocious roll - but hey it happens)

My 2 cents

Looks like I will be cutting a trukk unit to make room for Ghaz.

Redbeard wrote:Burnas don't help much against thunderwolves.

Shooting, the burnas are better....

And best is shooting the burnas and then assaulting in with Ghazghkull.

sickening wrote:Funny no one has said nob bikers before now.

Because I too like to throw 400 point units into 250 point units and watch the 250 point unit walk out the other side.

Seriously, the Thunderhammer is instant-gibbing nobz with no FNP and no save. The same cannot really be said for power klaws. The thunderhammer alone will kill 3.

Dash is pretty bang on, to which I'd like to add that Lootas backing up shoota boyz aren't a terrible solution, as the squad gets significantly less scary if it drops to 3 or 2.