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In your opinion(s?), what army or armies benefitted from the new rules to the point of being broken?

Does Telcis count as an army?

kenshin620 wrote:Does Telcis count as an army?

^What he said.

None of the armies are really broken as a whole(although Daemons still come very close), however, there are many models/units that will win you games without thought( Slann and Focused Rumination)

I wouldn't say that they're broken but the Dwarves really benefited from the new rules in 8th edition.

kenshin620 wrote:Does Telcis count as an army?

ya know, teclis is a lot like eldrad in 40k. he is a huge force multiplier, but at the end of the day his supporting cast is mostly subpar. i mean really, he is a t2 w3 model with no save that has to hang around with other t3 mediocre at best save elves. if you can get to him you can win, and in 8th ed its not so bad.

that said, i hate that pointy eared bastard. ive played against him a ton recently (practice for ard boyz) and while hes not unbeatable, he is pretty unfun to play against.

Eldrad is atleast really hard to kill

ser_hag wrote:ya know, teclis is a lot like eldrad in 40k. he is a huge force multiplier, but at the end of the day his supporting cast is mostly subpar. i mean really, he is a t2 w3 model with no save that has to hang around with other t3 mediocre at best save elves. if you can get to him you can win, and in 8th ed its not so bad.

that said, i hate that pointy eared bastard. ive played against him a ton recently (practice for ard boyz) and while hes not unbeatable, he is pretty unfun to play against.

I think the difference is that magic in 40K is nowhere near the scale of magic in WHFB. An overpowered caster in one game is not the same as an overpowered caster in the other. This is reflected in Teclis costing a load more points than Eldrad.

And yeah, single models that completely dominant games, that have to be killed for the other side to have a chance of winning are completely not fun - I agree with that.

Teclis is very strong this edition but all you need is 1 dwellers and hes good bye and probably half his bodyguard, which in turn basically wins you the game as hes going to be alot of points down.
And most people dont use a second caster as teclis hoggs all the dice so with him gone there is no magic to worry about.

I have gone 1st in both games i have played teclis and hes died 1st turn in both, if my opponent went 1st then i would probably be saying that hes way to strong and killed half my army lol.

Back to the question i think empire have benefitted the most, but not to the point of beng broken, mortars make any1 whos t3 very upset.

A lot of it is matchups- I love facing mortars with my t4, spaced-out (skirmishers), 5+ ward save dryads, at 12 points apiece!

I don't think any armies necessarily "benefited from the new rules to the point of being broken". I'm going to ignore Teclis, since he's a named character (which can be disallowed in events to put a stop to it if needed... not that I'm a fan of that since I need Throgg to make my new army legal ).

Daemons hurt me like crazy, but again, it's a bad matchup (all their attacks ignore my ward saves, since it's not usable against magic). Also, any magic-heavy army is now, imho, probably not broken- a low winds of magic roll for two conesecutive turns can make them extremely ineffective, and it's bound to happen. So you have to have more to your army than that!

Tzeentchling9 wrote:

kenshin620 wrote:Does Telcis count as an army?

^What he said.

None of the armies are really broken as a whole(although Daemons still come very close), however, there are many models/units that will win you games without thought( Slann and Focused Rumination)

Wait what...

I just picked up daemons and they are no where near as stupid as they were in 8th.

No more blue scribes, tons of horrors, 20 power dice magic phases.

No more 4+ regen, 5+ ward stacking.

The main shock troops are only T3, with a 5+ ward, not exactly sturdy, removing from the back REALLY hurt bloodletters

Kairos is still really strong, but a tooled out slann is cheaper, and can be argued to be just as powerful...

The only really broken, cheesy combo is the -ld trinity. Masque, -2 Ld banner, with a properly equipped seeker can really make your opponent rage.


I honestly dont think daemons are even top tier anymore.

I put up a poll here on Dakka Dakka and most people were more afraid of lots of war machines as opposed to Teclis or a powerful caster. I think the armies that can mass war machines are more broken than Teclis or a powerful mage.

The only really broken, cheesy combo is the -ld trinity. Masque, -2 Ld banner, with a properly equipped seeker can really make your opponent rage.

Well, if a single model makes the entire HE army broken, then I'd say a single strategy should make the Demons broken as well.

djones520 wrote:Well, if a single model makes the entire HE army broken, then I'd say a single strategy should make the Demons broken as well.

Which is where it becomes nonsensical to talk about armies being broken. You can play all kinds of competitive and mediocre lists with High Elves and Daemons, so it doesn't make any sense to talk about their armies being broken.

If specific lists are dodgy, then we should talk about those specific lists being dodgy.

Exactly, there are broken builds, but no one army is so powerful it walks all over everyone regardless of build.

sebster wrote:
Which is where it becomes nonsensical to talk about armies being broken. You can play all kinds of competitive and mediocre lists with High Elves and Daemons, so it doesn't make any sense to talk about their armies being broken.

Well, I disagree with the "all kinds" when it comes to HE. Competitive lists = teclis, mediocre = no teclis. Demons do have multiple good lists tho

I'm willing to say that Teclis deserves banning and hydras cost about 100 points less than what they ought to in 8th (and HPAs are 65 points too cheap as well), but the only truly broken thing to me is purple sun. You know in some Australian and European tournaments they're banning all 15+ spells, in order to eliminate purple sun toolbaggery and the ability of a handful of dice to detonate a game beyond all reason? Seems drastic - and cruel to non-gamebreakers like Beast #6 - but I can get behind fixes like that, will be interesting to see how it plays out.

- Salvage

Depends on how you play your army and who you're fighting.

Overall though for a balanced, competitive tourney list...here are my top 5:

1. Warriors of Chaos (thrown the kitchen sink at these armies and still either get stomped or barely win)
2. High Elves (ASF + High Initiative = disgusting)
3. Empire (so many guns, so few enemies)
4. Dark Elves (every unit is dangerous...beware the witch elf deathstar)
5. Beasts of Chaos (yeah I know, but just went 0-4 this past week vs 3 different Beasts armies...freaking SICK units and army rules)

Kirasu wrote:Well, I disagree with the "all kinds" when it comes to HE. Competitive lists = teclis, mediocre = no teclis. Demons do have multiple good lists tho

Playing an Empire list with a load of mortars I tend to find the same, but plenty of others seem to think they're still very powerful. A lot of it is match-ups.

Boss_Salvage wrote:I'm willing to say that Teclis deserves banning and hydras cost about 100 points less than what they ought to in 8th (and HPAs are 65 points too cheap as well), but the only truly broken thing to me is purple sun. You know in some Australian and European tournaments they're banning all 15+ spells, in order to eliminate purple sun toolbaggery and the ability of a handful of dice to detonate a game beyond all reason? Seems drastic - and cruel to non-gamebreakers like Beast #6 - but I can get behind fixes like that, will be interesting to see how it plays out.

- Salvage

Thats why I find the euro tournament scene a bit silly.. Lets just ban everything we think is too powerful. Everytime you ban something you simply make something *else* better to take its place

Even if you ONLY allow 2 armies to be played (the rest being banned) something in those 2 armies will be better than the other.. Oh, well might as well ban that too. Purple sun is only amazing vs low Int armies. Against a lot of armies its not horribly effective AND it misfires 1/6th of the time anyway

Pit of shades can kill a whole unit.. but its not a #6 spell! uh oh gotta ban all #5 spells now too.. Too may people dont like their treemen dying, gotta ban lore of fire and metal.

Adapt, learn the local meta-game and build better lists. Success in tournaments is basically a result of skill, pairings and list building. Skill is relative, pairings are random but a good list is a good list

Just read another Euro report where they've simply banned all the upgraded versions of Death ...* I sorta agree that banning things isn't a great solution, though I'm also in favor of comped pairings, comp scores, blah blah, etc so the total WAAC maniacs can have at it while the fluffy bunnies have cuddle time in the lower rungs.

Annnnd here's my side comment that one of the reasons I play Fantasy and have abandoned 40k is that I like to think that almost any list can still win, or at least make a game of it and have fun. 8th I do think has changed this up somewhat, so that the List Building Phase is more than it was in 7th, but certainly not the 70% or so it is in 40k.

- Salvage

*Other restrictions at this tournament include no double rare, no triple special, no quadruple characters, no special characters, etc

Kirasu wrote:Thats why I find the euro tournament scene a bit silly.. Lets just ban everything we think is too powerful. Everytime you ban something you simply make something *else* better to take its place

That assumes a linear scale of power, which is a dubious assumption at best. What's much more common is a collection of abilities and combinations with a normal distribution. Banning the most powerful options won't stop something else becoming the most powerful option, but that thing will not be as far ahead of the next most powerful option.

Not that I'm much of a fan of banning stuff either, because the line between powerful and overpowered is too hard to draw. I'm not sure there'll ever be a particularly effective way to control competitive GW games.

I think only the banning of Characters can be justified. Banning anything else is pretty idiotic.

Purple sun is high risk and high reward spell as there has been Alot of debate about how much it can just blow up in yourface.
Also only like, Doc, woc, De, He, Empire and VC, Slann!! have access to death. i think beastmen can? but its just them odd few heros somewhere who are death wizards etc
I say that only these have access but i guess these are pretty much the most common armies :(
Its pretty ineffective against 5 armies. and Probably Super effective! against another 5
But oh well Thats for another thread.

I think HE's are just broken to extreme levels of Auto win!
Even if you manage to kill Teclis. None of us have yet been able to beat the Phoenix guard horde.
The best we came was in a 4 way battle and we all ganged up on them.. Lvl 4 Life wizard managed to keep them alive even with 3vs1 and they wiped out everything.

Kirasu wrote:

Boss_Salvage wrote:I'm willing to say that Teclis deserves banning and hydras cost about 100 points less than what they ought to in 8th (and HPAs are 65 points too cheap as well), but the only truly broken thing to me is purple sun. You know in some Australian and European tournaments they're banning all 15+ spells, in order to eliminate purple sun toolbaggery and the ability of a handful of dice to detonate a game beyond all reason? Seems drastic - and cruel to non-gamebreakers like Beast #6 - but I can get behind fixes like that, will be interesting to see how it plays out.

- Salvage

Thats why I find the euro tournament scene a bit silly.. Lets just ban everything we think is too powerful. Everytime you ban something you simply make something *else* better to take its place

Even if you ONLY allow 2 armies to be played (the rest being banned) something in those 2 armies will be better than the other.. Oh, well might as well ban that too. Purple sun is only amazing vs low Int armies. Against a lot of armies its not horribly effective AND it misfires 1/6th of the time anyway

Pit of shades can kill a whole unit.. but its not a #6 spell! uh oh gotta ban all #5 spells now too.. Too may people dont like their treemen dying, gotta ban lore of fire and metal.

Adapt, learn the local meta-game and build better lists. Success in tournaments is basically a result of skill, pairings and list building. Skill is relative, pairings are random but a good list is a good list

I will second this. I don't agree with banning anything. If it's in the army book it should be allowed. I believe you should figure out a way to beat the particular list/person who is consistently beating you, not ban a particular unit or list.

Seon wrote:I think only the banning of Characters can be justified. Banning anything else is pretty idiotic.

Purple sun is high risk and high reward spell as there has been Alot of debate about how much it can just blow up in yourface.
Also only like, Doc, woc, De, He, Empire and VC, Slann!! have access to death. i think beastmen can? but its just them odd few heros somewhere who are death wizards etc
I say that only these have access but i guess these are pretty much the most common armies :(
Its pretty ineffective against 5 armies. and Probably Super effective! against another 5
But oh well Thats for another thread.

I think HE's are just broken to extreme levels of Auto win!
Even if you manage to kill Teclis. None of us have yet been able to beat the Phoenix guard horde.
The best we came was in a 4 way battle and we all ganged up on them.. Lvl 4 Life wizard managed to keep them alive even with 3vs1 and they wiped out everything.

Most people i know take lore of like as its got amazing buffs and a nice damage spell, i just cant see how any1 would struggle with pheonix guard 1 dwellers =half dead so no more horde. It might be because i play empire but i cant see any problem with elfs, tougness 3 is a joke with mortars each hit kills enough to force a panic test. When im using empire i have the worst time with dwarfs because they just outshoot me and never miss. And for some reason chaos my opponent nearly always brings 2 hellcannons which really hurts and then smashes me with knights.

Anyway i think high elfs are far from broken, but the death spell is pretty bad and i choose to not use it as if you get IF on the powerd up version on the 1st turn against most armies its pretty devastating.

I'm still amazed that people consider HE's to be broken. Like bennyboy6189 mentions, that T3 and low armor is a very large detriment to the army, and asides from Magic spells (let's not include Teclis into this particular discussion since he's an obvious considerable force multiplier) they've got a real hard time dealing with anything big. The main thing they've got going for them now the ASF re-rolls in combat. Otherwise, they're usually taking a lot of hits back from enemy units and mostly hitting back with S3 attacks (excepting the elite infantry, of course).

Seon wrote:None of us have yet been able to beat the Phoenix guard horde.

I've beat it with a single HPA, who went on to devour a 25 spearelf block as well as all of his characters.

DarkAngelHopeful wrote:I believe you should figure out a way to beat the particular list/person who is consistently beating you, not ban a particular unit or list.

One of the recent Podhammers has some commentary on the recent move to ban all 15+ spells, and the gist is that while slamming out these gigantic spells and removing units from the table all at once is hilarious and good times in your garage, but has little place in a tournament version of WHFB as it has nothing to do with tactics, strategy or list building beyond writing "Death" next to your wizard, adding some insurance that he'll get "purple head" and then maxing out dice for the IF. This does not prove you are a better player nor can it be fought back against.

Another idea that was kicked around on that episode is to simply not allow 15+ spells to go IF. Upside is that they can be stopped, downside is that the accompanying miscast, while certainly worth the risk with uber-spells like purple sun and gateway, is often a nice bone to throw your opponent. (Teclis and every slann in the game be damned.)

- Salvage

HE are far from broken. At Ard boyz against a teclis list I won. Pheonix guard are far from unbeatable, one Str 4 attack each oh nos!!!!
They are also squishy as hell. most have a 5+ save tops, with only T3, I have blocks of 50 slaves for 100 points take out 250+ points of spear elves.

Also imo purple sun pales compared to The dwellers below, Most models have I4+ except for very few armies. Where tons of models are Str 3ish base.
Personally I have no problem with the super spells, in a few dozen 8th games, even against Teclis and slanns, i have yet to see this entire unit wiped off the board phenomenon.

There are lots of things that can pop an entire unit that people were fine with before 8th ed.

I have wiped 1000 point units out with the dreaded 13th (slann, temple guard, with old blood in it).
Dropped a Str 10 WLC shot right into the middle of a big unit of chaos knights and killed them all.
Rolled an 11 for gateway strength

However people only seem to have a problem with this in 8th edition now that everyone has access to it.

I agree but if you roll perfectly and its 1st turn where most the opponent is in there delpoyment zone the purple sun can kill 3/4 of a dwarf/lizardmen army, and with most others still a large proportion. And force them all to do panic tests etc.
Combined with the -leadership spells from death its really effective.

In my opinion its to powerful even with all the chances it misfires or rolls low and it even stays in play if you choose to.

If they only made it move 1 or even 2 times the artillery dice that would make it better i think or more friendly.

I want to see how these people deploy so a single purple sun on turn one can wipe out 3/4 of their army.

With the pie plate you might get lucky and go over an entire unit and maybe a war machine or 2, but thats pushing it.

Whats going through their head, oh look he is taking death, let me deploy my TG, slann unit directly in front of his wizards unit!

Also even with 6 dice theres only a slim chance of it going off with IF, Are these people not taking a dispel scroll to prevent the turn one cheese? (against teclis its different i know). If they power scroll they are risking a miscast on a spell that could do nothing if they roll bad. Sure every now and then it might take out a whole unit, but theres a good chance it will do nothing, and there is that wizard, sitting on a miscast, who just used 6 dice and an expensive arcane item that did nothing.

I really think these super spells losing players the game on turn one is less cheese, and more people being stupid with deployment or not taking a dispel scroll.

It is true that in the games ive played they have deployed badly but isnt it possible for a sorcerer on a mount could fly 20inches or even on a horse move 16 then line up down there battle line?