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bennyboy6189 wrote:If you spend a whole turn killing a praticular special character then you will probably do so, with empire or dwarfs if i concentrate everything at the unit teclis is in hes dead and so is his unit.
And with the price of teclis/bodyguard its pretty much game over, if you kill 1 of these special characters that are overpowered(and your opponent relys on this character to win) he will probably just admit defeat 1st turn as its happened to me alot,or they want a rematch.

Dude, seriously, are you screwing with me or something? Why did you keep replying to me if you're not reading my posts?

As I said in my post... yes, there are ways to kill Teclis. I myself have no real fear of the guy because I often take a number of long rifles and just shoot him, no matter the size of the unit he hides in. But that isn't the point.

A game of fantasy should be about balancing a dozen or more competing priorities, tarpitting his best units while ensuring your best units don't suffer the same, protecting the flanks and the rear, delaying and disrupting the enemy advance vs advancing on the enemy as quickly as possible while maintaining good order. In a game with a really powerful character, all those things collapse down to one - kill the character and you'll likely win, fail to kill him and you'll likely lose. If a group is looking for the complexity of the first environment but keep getting stuck in the second, it makes sense to adjust list selection to discourage the crazy super powers.

I think 8th edition is fairly balanced, well at least alot more than 7th.

This is true at this stage. 7th was also pretty balanced for a time, but then Vampire Counts and some other books screwed things up.


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Herohammernostalgia wrote:
Being the old veteran that I am, I say that it's perfectly normal to restrict named characters and magic items, and maybe even magic lores at tournaments... it's how I know tournaments to be!
I have witnessed the HeroHammer era, and I tell you, all you warhammerites, that you still talk about the same stuff as 12 years ago!

True, I remember the time when proper list building was about getting your expenditure on heroes as close to 50% of your total list as possible, and then spending the rest of your points on crap that didn't matter (unless you had a really broken option in your list like 50 point repeater bolt throwers, then you'd max that out as well ). Characters themselves were generally more expensive, but what really mattered was that a properly tooled up character was almost impossible to beat with regular troops.

Things are trending back towards herohammer, somewhat, but we're still a long way away from the old days.


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happydude wrote:All of this hurts to look at. Special characters are a part of the game, as are lores and the like and there is nothing wrong with people using either. Don't like characters? Hate certain lores? Then there is this lovely game called Hordes you could look into. I'll say to these folk as I say to all people who enjoy whine with cheese: Go play chess. It's far more acceptable socially, rules are constant and you can find players everywhere and anywhere you go. Also it can be very cost effective... But watch out for queens you may find them broken ;p

I just don't get this attitude, it basically boils down to 'it's in the rules and therefore it's fine and nothing anyone can do can make the game better for them'. It's ridiculous, and I can't even begin to understand how it begins to form.

Look, WHFB is a game with many different elements, and a diverse player base that wants a whole lot of different things from the game. If a group wants to emphasise one part of the game over another, they shouldn't just feel free but encouraged to adjust the rules. If a playing group doesn't like magic at all they should feel free to ban it, it's their group and who are you to say otherwise? If they think it's silly that the Emperor Karl Franz keeps turning up to every single skirmish, why shouldn't they say 'no special characters'.

It's their group. They get to play the way they want to play. Complaining about people in another part of the country changing the rules to play the way they want to play isn't just whining, it's whining about something that doesn't even affect you. It's ridiculous.

Im not screwing with you lmao, its just you say hes overpowered but then you say hes no threat and he is easy to kill? contradicting tbh. I still think 8th is pretty balanced aswell as random and back to the topic i dont think any army is broken. Special characters are part of the game if its in the book you can use it is how my flgs does it.

No YOU misread into it bud. See the game is actually balanced, as long as you can use your tactics and strengths to overwhelm. Whining=Avg to beginner skilled gamer. Anyway you should try this awesome game called chess... Teclis=broken lmfao the entire HE army fluff practically consists of magic so yeah their mages and mage heroes are balls out. This is not a flame attempt fyi just trying to point out that this whole "broken" thing is illogical this early in the edition. Hey maybe GW will hear everyones crying and ban Teclis and the skaven lol. Also those tournaments that cut heroes and lores are for people who can't cope, and I'll refrain from those and play in the adult tournaments thanks. Just my two cents ;p

bennyboy6189 wrote:Im not screwing with you lmao, its just you say hes overpowered but then you say hes no threat and he is easy to kill? contradicting tbh. I still think 8th is pretty balanced aswell as random and back to the topic i dont think any army is broken. Special characters are part of the game if its in the book you can use it is how my flgs does it.

Okay, you're reading so please read it carefully this time. Teclis and other powerful special characters can cause a tremendous amount of destruction, but there are plenty of ways to kill him. As such, in games featuring him or certain other special characters capable of equal destruction become largely focused around that character - kill him quickly and win, fail to kill him and lose.

For a lot of players, the game of 'hunt the special character' is not as interesting as a game of Warhammer based around maneouvering infantry, cavalry and other elements into the best positions to overrun the enemy. So they put a ban on these characters so they can continue playing the core game.

And yes, 'if it's in the book it's in the game' may be how your flgs does it. That's fine, and for pick up and play games against whoever turns up it's a pretty good way of doing things. But your flgs isn't the world, is doesn't represent all playing groups. Other groups have a structure in place, and a group of like-minded players, that allows them to adjust some rules to produce a playing environment that's more enjoyable for all them. Telling them the way they enjoy playing the game is wrong is a really silly way to go about talking about the hobby.


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happydude wrote:No YOU misread into it bud. See the game is actually balanced, as long as you can use your tactics and strengths to overwhelm. Whining=Avg to beginner skilled gamer. Anyway you should try this awesome game called chess... Teclis=broken lmfao the entire HE army fluff practically consists of magic so yeah their mages and mage heroes are balls out. This is not a flame attempt fyi just trying to point out that this whole "broken" thing is illogical this early in the edition. Hey maybe GW will hear everyones crying and ban Teclis and the skaven lol. Also those tournaments that cut heroes and lores are for people who can't cope, and I'll refrain from those and play in the adult tournaments thanks. Just my two cents ;p

Again*, the point isn't about whether a character is too powerful. Yes, Teclis and other characters cost more for their points, and generally come with noticeable disadvantages. The point is that if characters like that hit the field the game becomes predominantly about killing Teclis, the actual game becomes a lot less important.

It's a really inane, geek machismo mindset that causes you to think people remove stuff from tournaments because 'they can't cope'. If I sit down and special scenario that I wrote with a mate, we might give one side more points than the other, change the deployment areas, and change the 'win/loss' conditions. We are changing the rules, but we aren't changing them because we can't cope with regular games, we're changing them because the variant rules are more fun for us. And that's the only consideration possible when people set about building tournament rules - what's going to be most fun for our playing group?

If that playing group has found that extremely random, high risk high reward options like power 25 spells decided games more often than clever play, then they're well within their rights to remove those spells from the game. The idea that they must be weak for wanting to change rules is a really unfortunate mindset to have.



*and again, and again.. seriously what is going on? It isn't as though my point is a tough one to understand, why are you guys unable to process it at all?

Moreover: in a tournament/club situation where you face an opponent who plays the same race as you do, what will bore/teach you more: fighting the exact copy of your own army (i.e. PG-Teclis deathstar), or something entirely different?

In 7th edition did there flgs stop selling kairos unless it was for modeling purposes? In a tournament as soon as you get towards the final stages most have similar armies, because the players are competant enough to pick what units work.

If you are a walk in gamer, and you go to one of these stores where they have "no 25 spells, no special characters"
but the guy that walked into the store just moved to that town, and he really likes teclis fluff etc and he goes in for a game 1 day and they go, no you cant use that character becos hes OP, isnt that unfair on the guy that just wants a game? anyone who denies spells and characters just because they think "omg this might stand a chance against me if he uses that" should go play a different game, this game is about enjoying your army and if your denied everything so it becomes about who has lots of spears and ranks.. how is it any different from playing a game of chess?

characters and awsome spells make the game fun and unpredictable. thats why they are great.

thelordoflife wrote:If you are a walk in gamer, and you go to one of these stores where they have "no 25 spells, no special characters"
but the guy that walked into the store just moved to that town, and he really likes teclis fluff etc and he goes in for a game 1 day and they go, no you cant use that character becos hes OP, isnt that unfair on the guy that just wants a game? anyone who denies spells and characters just because they think "omg this might stand a chance against me if he uses that" should go play a different game, this game is about enjoying your army and if your denied everything so it becomes about who has lots of spears and ranks.. how is it any different from playing a game of chess?

characters and awsome spells make the game fun and unpredictable. thats why they are great.

QFT

Guys like sebster make me chuckle a tad. Somehow common sense=machismo to him. Warhammer has rules... Don't like them? Go play chess( Sweet conversion opportunities! ). With your friends in a casual nobody cares what you do but to exclude lores and characters from tournaments is childish and for those who can't handle the game in it's entirety much like how pee wee hockey contains no hits and fighting is banned all the way up to AAA. When they are fit/old enough to cope with hockey in it's entirety then they go play big boy hockey . I agree with you totally as far as casual but tournaments were meant to be played RaW. Your friend from the great white north, Happydude.

You dont look so happy in that Pic xD

Magic the Gathering also has rules, however cards are constantly being banned and restricted. Its for the health of the metagame.

What it all boils down to is that warhammer is a GAME. If something is generally not fun or enjoyable for a group of people there is no reason they shouldnt be allowed to change the rules up somewhat. You might love special characters and your gaming group plays with them all the time, if thats fun for you fine.

At my FLGS special characters are not allowed in the tournies or leagues that they run. As a group we have decided we enjoy the game more without them. Bashing someone for playing the game the way they want to is childish and narcissistic. Who cares if they dont play it the way you do. If i come and play a game in your store and special characters are allowed, no problem, thats how your group decides to play. However if you come into a store down here dont expect to find a game using them.

Actually the only tournament down here you can find that allows them is ard boyz.

Overall I feel without special characters the game is more balanced and more enjoyable. YMMV.

But ofcourse do you understand where im coming from that someone might move to your area and expect to be greeted warmly and be able to have a nice game to the sudden shock of you lot going, "oh but you cant use your favourite characters here they are to OP" thats not really very fair is it? and as you said it is a game so why is everyone QQ'ing about Special characters and good magic?
Ill tell you why, its because the people who want to ban things want to make the game boring, you think that OP spells and OP characters pose a challenge to you and you dont sound like a person who wants to play a game for a challenge, you want to play because you know you can win, and thats no fun for the guy whose not allowed to use things because your all scared someone might have something shiney to play with.
And really.. if you cant understand why spells arent OP then look at it this way, a lvl 4 wants to cast a 25 spell yeh, hes going to undoubtedly roll 5d6 at least, the chances of it not working or a misscast are very high hes got as likley chance to do himself damage as he hs to cause you damage. the only "OP" character ive seen in this game is teclis and even he is T2 str2 you wanna know how to beat that unit of 50 pheonix guard in 2 turns? The dwellers below..at str 2 hes absolutley shafted and the guard are Str 3 so again , shafted. and you might say.. yeh but they have a 2+ ward against spells.. no they dont.. because it doesnt allow saves of any kind. now if you say to me in response "yeh well then thats op" no it isnt because its cast on 21+ and you can just dispel it. all about risks.. and thats what it should be.. not *i poke you with stick.. you take wound.. we both got 3 ranks.. and you poke me with shiney sword killing one. it draw."

I can see where your coming from, and again your using blanket statements and pushing that your way of playing is the best.

I honestly feel that no special characters make the game more balanced, which in turn makes it more fun. However like I said you might find the game more enjoyable with them.

It would probably be a shock for some people to be told there list isnt allowed when they moved, however, if they want to play the need to abide by the house rules of that store, not play, or find somewhere else to play.

Also not allowing special characters isnt doing that just so I can win. I enjoy a challenge just as much as a next person, but there is a difference between a challenge and having almost no chance at winning. I find the metagame is more stable and more balanced when they arent allowed. Some of them just bring some crazy special abilities or special rules into the game that require a very specialized unit to counter. So you either bring that unit (which will gimp you against other opponents) or just let the character walk all over you.

I dont think any of the spells are overpowered, they all have drawbacks, liek insane casting values, misfires, or they could be a dud.

Your criticizing people for playing the game the way they want to.

Unfortunantly it is pretty universally agreed upon different armies are not all balanced. Games workshop tries, but it is just not possible to balance all the armies to be on the same level. Also once the books are published its really hard to go back and change things. If something in an MMORPG is imbalanced they patch it, with a tabletop game like warhammer, they cant do that so they just go, well lets not make the same mistake again.

The house rules and tourny rules banning certain characters and putting restrictions is an attempt to balance the game so that someone bringing army X which is agreed upon to be one of the best, doesnt just stomp all over someone bringing army Y, which people agree to need some help.

Im not saying my way is better, im just saying your way is selfish to other players

thelordoflife wrote:Im not saying my way is better, im just saying your way is selfish to other players

I agree my way may be selfish to powergamers and WAAC players, but meh i play the game for fun. Im not going to sit there and let someone trounce all over me because they brought a WAAC list to my all comers list.

I have no problem playing a WAAC list game every now and then, sometimes they are fun. However calling me selfish because I dont want to spend my time playing a game I wont enjoy is very narcissistic.

If someone came up to me when im casually gaming and asked for a game I would ask to see there list. If it included someone like Teclis or Archaon or another ectremely powerful character and i wasnt in the mood for a WAAC game I would kindly ask them to change there list. If they refused I simply wouldnt play. If my not wanting to spend my time amusing your power list is selfish, then by god im one selfish person.

So if someone has a well balanced army but it includes teclis you still wont play? thats not WAAC at all its just including a character that he likes..

If someone said to me. do you want a game? and eh setup a 50 pheonix guard block with teclis in.. well i personally would be delighted but i can see how you would get bored of those WAAC sheep player.

but surley you would let someone play with a well balanced list that includes an "op" character?

It would depend on the rest of the list, but i personally hate playing against Teclis. Its honestly not a fun game for me.

most other special characters I really dont mind. WAAC lists, yeah i might ask you to change it up or find another opponent, but i wont not play a game just because there is a special character in it. (unless its Teclis).

Teclis is a stupid crutch in my opinion, and what sucks for me is I have to challenge so he will get safely sent to the back of the unit he's in. My only real option is sending in a suicide unit to quickly wipe him out and then get slowly broken down by pheonix guard. Sure he can die to goblins, but it takes time to get to him. And all the while he'll be slinging spells that I don't even get a chance to dispell. Nothing is more annoying than not being able to at least feel like your giving up a fight against his magic. On top of this people combine him with the Banner of sorcery so the elves have like 10 dice while I have 3.

As you can probably tell I don't like to play against him. Am I going to tell some one that they can't use them? No. Will I hate playing against them? A loud and resounding yes. If I wanted to play games like that I would play lizards with life slann and 6 salamanders.

If you challenge and he declines you choose who goes to the back i think, so you can still split your attacks on him at the front.( i may have read this wrong please correct me if i have)

I don't agree with all of the Teclis hate. I think he's a cool character with great fluff. I think if Teclis is banned then no one should be able to use the 8 lores of battle magic since he taught them to the Empire. lol

What about daemons, since, you know, they are the reason magic is in existence.

I'm not a total fluff bunny, but I thought the warp/immaterium/land of the demons just existed, and thus magic was also a natural element of the warhammer universe that just existed independent of anything. I was under the impression that demons existed only because of human emotions and other races emotions. I was not under the impression that demons are the reason magic exist.

However, since everyone is banning everything these days, sure, let's ban demons too lol.

EDIT: For the record, I think anyone should play however they want, to include banning special characters, magic, etc. if that's what they feel will help them enjoy the game. I am in the camp of not banning anything though. Also, it makes international tournament play a little harder if Oz is doing one thing, the US another, and UK and Europe another (and any other county that plays I didn't include).

Magic was created when the other choas gods turned on Tzeencth, He was shattered into thousands of pieces and each on of those pieces became a spell.

Cool, I wonder if that's the same way psychic powers started in 40k? Never the less, I still think there is way too much Teclis hatred. It's like the flavor of the month. Right now it's Teclis and HE. It used to be Demons in 7th from what I understand.

I love the childish counters worded carefully towards this. mtg changes rules yes... and if the RaW gets changed then so be it as it is now universal. Making changes to tournaments is for people who can't handle the RaW as I have said. Go play casual in any way you desire it's great like that BUT tournaments should have universal rules sets. Someone new enters your store and is a great player who loves characters and employs heavy magic tactics is now having his fave aspects removed from tournament play at his new because resident kiddie coven deemed them too harsh? GROW UP! You and the rest of the players are simply too, well, simple to handle the game in it's entirety. Casual=do what you will, tournament=RaW. I'm glad you do not head up any sports leagues or divisions or else Monday night two hand touch would become a reality. Whats next? No magic items costing more than 25pts? no models pre 7th? Secret members only handshakes to make each match "official"?


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Read HERO'S gaming blog and learn THE REAL DIFFERENCE about WAAC and a smart tourney player. And my attitude is far from masochistic. It just seems to be the ramblings of those who should play more chess and less warhammer.


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Watch out for those queens though;p

I love how you completely disregard the fact that most of us play this game for fun.

If playing only WAAC lists is fun for you then go for it.

However berating and insulting people for wanting to play more casually and not have to worry about WAAC lists in the tourny is there choice.

I play the game for fun, if an aspect of the game is less fun then I will avoid it.

I can handle the RaW just fine. Im not to simple to handle the entirety of the game. I advanced in Ard' Boyz which is WAAC and honestly tournaments like that are fun every now and then, are not something I want to do every single time.

Metagame changes depending on the region someone is in. If said player is so great, he should have no problem making a list within the confines of the tournament rules and wiping the floor with everyone. If anyone loves a special character so much they NEED them in their list to enjoy the game i have a feeling its less of likeing the character, and more wanting to ride on his shoulders to wins.

Also your only retort has been play more chess and less warhammer kids rwar rawr im a powergamer grrrrr.

This isnt helped by the fact games workshop cant write globally balanced army books to save their life.

Also it was narcissistic not masochistic, big difference, google them. I would explain the difference but im to simple.

No my retort is that tournaments should be played by universal rules like every other game out there. Again people of your mindset cannot read entire paragraphs and hang onto few words and attempt to berate others. tournaments should be played by universal rules, casual in it's entirety is anyones choice. HERO'S gaming blog is the answer to your pathetic WAAC argument and never once have I said I was better at the game than anyone here. Try reading the entire post but much like your gaming you left out whatever you deemed a inconvenience lol. I'll let you all have the last word I have better things to do than argue with the ignorant whiners that plague this thread. Also in my first post I said I was not flaming anyone although it's amazing how you children can get so uppity over the truth. Please do us all a favor and seclude yourselves within your rules groups so that the infection of ignorance does not spread further. p.s. I wuv you ;p Honestly no hate

I'm going to throw my 2 cents in on this topic after reading it over several days. I think the whole argument boils down to the mixing of 2 different mindsets. On one side is the competitive game player and on the other is the casual/hobbyist. These 2 sides will never agree because their pleasure from the game/hobby come from different aspects. I understand fully the need for universal rules for tournaments from a competitive gaming aspect so that no matter where you go to play, you know what to expect. I also understand the love of the hobby side. Modelling and painting your own things as the main point then playing a fun game with them. As the hobbyist doesn't play the game as a serious competition, the more powerful combinations and characters sometimes seem less fun to play against and when the community as a whole is mostly hobbyists, the decision to ban or limit things is best for them. I have this argument with my own friends as they are the more competitive type and don't understand why people would want tournaments with comp as part of the score or even painting as part of the over all score to win a tournament. As neither side has more merit than the other, the only thing you can really do is always check with the store or gaming group before joining to see if they fit your style of play. Unfortunately, as is human nature, these arguments turn into personal bashes on each other's play style and attempts to degrade or insult other's opinions. In the end, if GW wanted to turn this into a serious competitive game they'd institute a central ruling body to organize their tournaments and have more concrete rules set that doesn't require so many faqs to clarify what's in the rulebook.


As for the topic of the thread, right now there are no "broken" armies as there were in 7th, just currently powerful strategies. I am sure after a few more months of playing and trying new things a new power will rise in warhammer. I don't think it will be one army book, rather a build that can be made over several. With the focus more on infantry than powerful characters/monsters like in 7th, more armies have the ability to be competitive.

I don't think it needs to be either or. Tournament organizers are free to set up their events however they want. It would be boring if every tournament played straight out of the book, no modifications Warhammer.

The beauty of multiple events (especially so in the UK, to some extent elsewhere) is that you can attend the event that caters to your preferences. Like no holds barred? Go to 'Ard Boyz. Like super fluffy? Pick the one that is comped to the teeth.

Not enough events in your area that are your style? If there's enough like minded individuals, put one together yourself. Start small, and grow it.

I just don't see why so many people feel there's not room for both approaches when it comes to tournament play.


Edit: For some reason, typo'd 'Ard Boyz to t'Ard boyz.

@the last two posts: Well said. Thing is I am casual an enjoy painting scores(NOT COMP).