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thelordoflife wrote:If you are a walk in gamer, and you go to one of these stores where they have "no 25 spells, no special characters"
but the guy that walked into the store just moved to that town, and he really likes teclis fluff etc and he goes in for a game 1 day and they go, no you cant use that character becos hes OP, isnt that unfair on the guy that just wants a game?

A flgs that banned people from people using certain characters or spells in pick up and play games would be wrong of course... what right does that store have to tell players what they can use in their own games. Which is quite different to me, personally, deciding whether or not I'd like to play you in a game, that's always up to each player.

And again (and again, and again and I'm guessing a whole lot more times after this) special characters aren't just banned because they're overpowered. In most cases they're a points sink that leaves your army too dependant on one unit.

anyone who denies spells and characters just because they think "omg this might stand a chance against me if he uses that" should go play a different game, this game is about enjoying your army and if your denied everything so it becomes about who has lots of spears and ranks.. how is it any different from playing a game of chess?

characters and awsome spells make the game fun and unpredictable. thats why they are great.

That's awesome that you really like special characters and powerful spells. You should feel free to use them in all your games. But it is foolish to think your fun is the only fun, and that other people are doing it wrong for playing the way they want to play.


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happydude wrote:Guys like sebster make me chuckle a tad. Somehow common sense=machismo to him. Warhammer has rules...

Okay, I get that you aren't very good at reading other people's posts, but shouldn't you at least be reading your own?

"Whining=Avg to beginner skilled gamer"
"Hey maybe GW will hear everyones crying"
"Also those tournaments that cut heroes and lores are for people who can't cope"
"I'll refrain from those and play in the adult tournaments"

Those aren't appeals to common sense, those are statements that your way is the tough manly way, and that people who don't want to play your way just aren't man enough.

Don't like them? Go play chess( Sweet conversion opportunities! ).

Because this hobby consists of a tactical game and special characters? Therefore if a person didn't want special characters then the only thing left is a tactical game. Don't talk nonsense.

With your friends in a casual nobody cares what you do but to exclude lores and characters from tournaments is childish and for those who can't handle the game in it's entirety much like how pee wee hockey contains no hits and fighting is banned all the way up to AAA. When they are fit/old enough cope with hockey in it's entirety then they go play big boy hockey . I agree with you totally as far as casual but tournaments were meant to be played RaW. Your friend from the great white north, Happydude.

Tournaments aren't 'meant' to be played any way but how the organisers set them up. Don't like the format, don't play or set up your own tournament.

The point here is not about special characters, personally I don't much care, the point is the assumption going through this thread that they way people like to play is the best way there could ever be, and anyone who looks to play some other way is doing it wrong.


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ShivanAngel wrote:Magic the Gathering also has rules, however cards are constantly being banned and restricted. Its for the health of the metagame.

What it all boils down to is that warhammer is a GAME. If something is generally not fun or enjoyable for a group of people there is no reason they shouldnt be allowed to change the rules up somewhat. You might love special characters and your gaming group plays with them all the time, if thats fun for you fine.

I read your post there, and it reads as such a simple, obvious thing, and I've been saying exactly the same things myself, and I'm just left wondering why people can't get it. I suspect it's because they really don't want to get it.


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thelordoflife wrote:Im not saying my way is better, im just saying your way is selfish to other players

People play how they want to play. It's a nonsense to insist anyone play the game anyway other than how they want to.

If someone offered me a game and I said no because they take forever to set up and duck outside after each turn for a smoke... that's my right. It's no different if someone offered me a game against their Teclis army and I said no, because I'd just played a very similar army and didn't want to play the hunt the Teclis game again.

Seriously, there is nothing selfish in playing the games you want to play.


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happydude wrote:Go play casual in any way you desire it's great like that BUT tournaments should have universal rules sets.

The only true tournaments are the happydude tournaments all else is heresy!

Seriously dude, stop telling other people how to play. You sound ridiculous.

Having wandered heinously off-topic, this thread is ripe to be locked... Or we could get back on topic because I for one am genuinely curious about powerful armies/units. I'm not so interested in discussion of tournaments and unneccessary attitudes.

Basically i would say high elfs are somewhere in the bottom half and if you throw in teclis, they move up a few spots.

All round i think its the most balanced it has been since i started playing warhammer, and im really liking most the new rules.

The High Elf ASF special rule got a slight/proper nerfing with the new rules for cc casualties, before, they could just kill off the first rank before they were struck and potentially be invulnerable in cc! Glad for all other races that has now come to an end

Having not played 8th edition, but being well acquainted with the older editions, the "step up", fighting in initiative order and "2 ranks strike" rules are actually a major overhaul and have a big influence on how effective some armies are... I figure that Chaos Warriors, with their small numbers come of worse than before as they will suffer more hits from the unit they engage... previously, when they charged or continued combat a second turn- striking first because higher initiative- they could extinguish an opponent's opportunity to do some damage to them, now they face the full number of attacks of the first rank and 1 for every model in the second. for small, elte armies that's gotta hurt.

Cavalry is also in more trouble than before, charging at unengaged units: they won't auto-strike first after a charge anymore and they will be on the receiving end of the full number of possible attacks in return... That's hell for those Bretonnians who used to horse-spam-rush-stomp over the less elite forces...

I think low initiative armies and armies with cheap infantry come off pretty well with these new combat rules... fighting in initiative order without "step up" would have been hell for them, but now they are rather effective against more elite (and faster/nimbler) enemies...

Missile troops shooting with 2 ranks now (archers only? or all variants?)... that is a great boost for the shooty races... which is slightly balanced with new charge rules.

IMO the core system is the most balanced up to date, but there are opportunities for exploitation by armies that can field cheap archers/missile troops and cheap infantry that can have strength-boosting weapons like halberds and great weapons.

A mass of Empire Halberdiers and (cross)bowmen/handgunners springs to mind as actually being rather effective nowadays... This kind of army used to be receipt for disaster in the past.

Herohammernostalgia wrote:The High Elf ASF special rule got a slight/proper nerfing with the new rules for cc casualties, it helps a lot.

Having not played 8th edition, but being well acquainted with the older editions, the "step up" and "2 ranks strike" rules are actually a major overhaul and has a big influence on how effective some armies are... I figure that Chaos Warriors, with their small numbers come of worse than before as they will suffer more hits from the unit they engage... previously, when they charged or continued combat a second turn- striking first because higher initiative- they could extinguish an opponent's opportunity to do some damage to them, now they face the full number of attacks of the first rank and 1 for every model in the second. for small armies, that's gonna hurt.

agreed, this applies to all elite expensive units with a low model count.....however, cheaper elite units (ex. empire greatswords) got a huge boost since they are cheap enough to be taken in numbers, and they can hit back hard with full effect....

in any case, 8th ed games now have mass carnage in most of them...ie it's a ton of bloody fun, but it's a pain to rank up all those casualties again in preparation for your next game! Regimental bases are a must! Am thinking of sticking my models onto plasticard strips to make my life much easier!!!

Ill thought out post deleted

High Elves got buffed rather nicely with the ASF rerolls. However, they got tuned WAY down with step up, and the new core rules. HE core is GARBAGE, my blocks of 50 slaves for 100 points can normally stand up to 300+ points of high elf spear elves for 3-4 turns. Archers are meh, and the sea guard are decent. Having to spend 25% of your points on those units hurt the army pretty bad.

Then there is step up. Sure you just killed 10 of my guys with your swordmasters, but now i got attacks back against your pathetic T3 5+ AS guys...

Not to mention the army dies (with the exception of PG) to a brisk wind.

Any army that can field cheep units in big blocks benefitted hugely from this edition. O&G, Skaven, Empire, WoC with marauders, there is more, but you get the point. Skaven slaves 50 strong cost 100 points... Even if you are killing 10 a turn, depending on how they are ranked, they will be steadfast for a good 2-3 turns. They are worth so few points they are best ignored, but it really sucks getting one of your elite 300-400 point units tarpitted for a few turns. I play daemons and skaven, and even though those slaves lose tons of numbers a turn, that steadfast has them sticking around for a long time.

Magic is strong this edition, and in one spell wizards can occasionally make their points back. However the miscast table is very mean. Magic is also incredibly random. You can have a magic phase where you roll 10 dice and just decimate the enemey army. Or you can have a magic phase where you get 4 power dice and have your one spell attempt dispelled. If this happens 2 or 3 turns in a row your caster could very well be dead before he does anything. One of my issues with Teclis is that he can effectively negate a low casting roll. With his ability and the banner of sorcery he can effectively gain 2-6 extra power dice every turn. Not only does this allow him an extra 1-2 spells a turn. It really screws your opponent since if you rolled low, they are holding 2-3 dispel dice to your 8-9 power dice, not that dispel dice matter against that character.

War machines got a very SLIGHT buff in this edition with no more guess ranging. This is more of a boost to new players then a bonus to veterans, since anyone who played a gunline type could hit their guesses regardless.

Personally I think this edition was huge in balancing an incredibly unbalanced metagame. More armies are competitive then before. There are still the low tier armies, but the differense between wood elves and say, dwarves in power in 8th edition isnt nearly as big as the difference between say, ogres and daemons from 7th edition.

The powers that be demand I tone down my posts and I shall comply. Final thoughts: Rules changes this early on are immature because the edition has not had enough time to blossom into what the developers intended. From a logical perspective one would need to halt judgement until new codecies arrive and base judgements then. It's the logical choice in the mean time. As I do not wish to game with individuals who place restrictions and would enjoy finding fresh players I will avoid this forum and focus on the others. Enjoy your minor laugh seb...

@shivanangel: I have always found the randomness of the card-based system of ancient editions (4th and 5th) a very good reflection of how the "winds of magic" are supposed to work, it's waxing an waning chaos-matter and form a background pov I find it proper that you can't rely on having the same amount of power available to you every turn and that it's a very dangerous job to be a wizard.

@happydude: House-rules have always been part of the warhammer game, especially tournament-limits have been in broad use for more than a decade (in 5th they were included in the main rules). It really is about preferences. For a tournament, YMMV but I've always seen set limits as another kind of challenge: how do you make a powerfull list with the limits set, try figure that out, different take on WHFB strategy. You can still come up with hard-to-beat tactics, units and combinations that will give headaches to your opponents and trust me, I've been in a few 5th ed. (Herohammer) tournaments (store and gaming group). Tournaments where special characters, magic iitems above 50 points and level 4 wizards were banned and still people pulled off crazy stunts that "lesser men" would consider OP. The combination of the Heart of Woe ("suicide bomber amulet" 25 pts, bearer killed= d6 s4 hits to all models within bearer's strength inches-no armour saves*) combined with a potion of strength (10 pts, +3 strength) and the "Apotheosis" (resurrection) spell is too horrible to further elaborate on...


*not sure on the no armour saves though

Herohammernostalgia wrote:
Having not played 8th edition, but being well acquainted with the older editions, the "step up", fighting in initiative order and "2 ranks strike" rules are actually a major overhaul and have a big influence on how effective some armies are... I figure that Chaos Warriors, with their small numbers come of worse than before as they will suffer more hits from the unit they engage... previously, when they charged or continued combat a second turn- striking first because higher initiative- they could extinguish an opponent's opportunity to do some damage to them, now they face the full number of attacks of the first rank and 1 for every model in the second. for small, elte armies that's gotta hurt.

Warriors aren't hurt quite as bad as you might think. With high WS, T, and good armor, they don't tend to take as much damage as other units, and can still dish it out in return. Certainly in long grinds, small numbers become a liability, though.

Magic is a huge part of High Elves fluff. And you can build a pretty good caster that's not Teclis. High Elves should be building strong mages and should be using the magic phase to their advantage. As has been so aptly pointed out that they suck in so many other ways. Why is it so weird to understand that they are going to try and dominate the magic phase and through that win the game? It almost like saying that the empire or dwarves shouldn't use war machines to win. I really wish people would lay off of the High Elves magic phase. Empire and Dwarves and other armies use war machines as a huge advantage and winning factor. High Elves use magic. It's okay that they mitigate some of the randomness with the Banner of Sorcery or even Teclis.

DarkAngelHopeful

Kirasu wrote:

maybe even Tomb Kings (WUT?) maxed out on casters with the new % rules... then firing a million arrow shots.

S3 arrows that hit on 5s are pretty scary. 100 arrows kill a whole 5 saurus!

Add khalidia and that is 100 arrows with poison.



On a side note, my top 5 are:
1. WoC (I dont understand how these guys fly under the radar of most players.)
2. HE (ASF, Teclis, Crazy Swordmasters)
3. DE (Wait so your saying the Hydra stomps on me and breaths into my ranks?, What do you mean that sorceror sacrificed someone?)
4. Dwarves (I only move 3"... but why move?)
5. Empire (I have 9 warmachines and great magic.. what do you get?)

happydude wrote:The powers that be demand I tone down my posts and I shall comply. Final thoughts: Rules changes this early on are immature because the edition has not had enough time to blossom into what the developers intended. From a logical perspective one would need to halt judgement until new codecies arrive and base judgements then. It's the logical choice in the mean time. As I do not wish to game with individuals who place restrictions and would enjoy finding fresh players I will avoid this forum and focus on the others. Enjoy your minor laugh seb...

Sure thing man, you're free to play how you want to play, and to play games against people who want to play the same way as you. That's all I've been saying. And I think your point about keeping a limit on houserules this soon after the release of the new rules is a good one.

And I'm not getting any kind of laugh from this, I was just trying to make what I thought was a very simple point - people are free to keep or change as many rules as they want, and to play against people looking for the same. So if there's a group somewhere that says 'special characters are silly because these great heroes of legend couldn't turn up to every border skirmish' then they really are free to do just that.

This was always going to go downhill

Warlord GT results dominated by DoC, LM, and DE. There you go.

I"m not so sure it's as cut & dry as that enmitee. Those three armies were the most numerous. Just looking at Victory Points and not overall scores for painting it looks a bit differently. The highest VP total belonged to a VC player and the second highest was a WoC player. In fact there was no DE that had a VP total in the top ten.

ramongoroth wrote:I"m not so sure it's as cut & dry as that enmitee. Those three armies were the most numerous. Just looking at Victory Points and not overall scores for painting it looks a bit differently. The highest VP total belonged to a VC player and the second highest was a WoC player. In fact there was no DE that had a VP total in the top ten.

Good statistical analysis.

In a game where the are objectives or goals to win, i dont think VP is much of a factor, it would be if the game was just try to table your opponent every game, and even if that were the case, i dont think VC really done alot of tabling in that gt. but that's not the case. I dont see how more VPs make them any better.

got a good view of the rankings and armies.

There were 12 DoCs, 3 Of them made it to the top 10
14 LM, 3 of them made it
13 DE, 1 made it to the top 10\
8 VC, 1 made it
7 Dwarves, 1 made it.

I dunno about you but having alot of VPs decides tie breakers, thats it. Not win games. They could be jolly killing all they want, but if the result isnt a win, it wasnt very effective in the game overall. Just in the case of the poor WoC.

EDIT EDIT:
there were 11 WoC, ZERO in the top 10.

I was referring specifically to top 10 in VPs when talking about WoC and it finished 15th overall. Now do Overall Tournament points (TP) include sportsmanship and painting in a GT yes? If that isn't the case then it is my mistake.

Still, I would not include DE in the 'dominate' category considering how numerous they were. There were two overall in the top 20 whereas DOC and LIZ had three each n the top 10 and four each in the top 20.

Guys, I need some convincing that its worth me to return to WHFB.

I used to play Empire...sold that army but now considering returning to TT. When I saw that High Elves get a racial ASF, my gut told me thats cheese. Please tell me (non HE players!) if this really is as cheese as I think, or is it, as some others have suggested in their posts, mitigated through running horde armies (skaven, ork n gobbo, empire etc)? I dont want to be beating down on HE players out there, but its almost as if movement and charing etc are irrelevant if they ASF?

Also...any word on some love for Tomb Kings? They have to be one of the least played armies, tragically so. If i were to return, I wouldn't mind playing them, but not if they get the shaft again.

@iLLiTHiD -

You know, as soon as the HE Army Book came out 3 years ago and people found out that they were getting racial ASF, people have been crying out 'CHEESE' and 'OMFGBBQ BROKENZ' about them. In practice (and partially owing to Army Book Creep) they're not considered Top Tier barring 1-2 builds (usually involving Teclis). Even with 8th Edition out and ASF providing re-rolls, High Elves struggle somewhat because of high points-cost/model and T3/5+Svs all around (for the most part). They have a high damage output overall, but if they don't do enough damage, chances are those hit-backs from Step Up are going to cause a lot of casualties. Steadfast doesn't help them out especially either. Changes to template hits (anything under templates hit now, no more partial hits) also really really hurt HEs, for the aforementioned T3/5+Sv issue.

Movement/charging has never remained irrelevant as getting in Flank Charges reduces the number of people hitting back and charging grants you a +1 to Combat Resolution. If anything, being able to pull of the Flank Charge is more important than before.

Re: TKs - rumors are that they're slated for Q1/2 of next year. As it is, they're not the best army out there, but given changes in Magic and rulings on TK Magic, they can be quite a deadly force, and their Magic Phase scales up really really well with the current rule-set. Dunno on what they're planning on changing about the army, though.

DarkAngelHopeful wrote:Magic is a huge part of High Elves fluff. And you can build a pretty good caster that's not Teclis. High Elves should be building strong mages and should be using the magic phase to their advantage. As has been so aptly pointed out that they suck in so many other ways. Why is it so weird to understand that they are going to try and dominate the magic phase and through that win the game? It almost like saying that the empire or dwarves shouldn't use war machines to win. I really wish people would lay off of the High Elves magic phase. Empire and Dwarves and other armies use war machines as a huge advantage and winning factor. High Elves use magic. It's okay that they mitigate some of the randomness with the Banner of Sorcery or even Teclis.

DarkAngelHopeful

This.

Also, to all the Teclis haters out there (read: everyone), at 1900+ points, the minimum size game in which Teclis can be taken, get good magical defences or a way to beat Teclis. If you don't, quit complaining about how the big scary mage killed your plastic toys.

Cptn. Waaagh! wrote:

DarkAngelHopeful wrote:Magic is a huge part of High Elves fluff. And you can build a pretty good caster that's not Teclis. High Elves should be building strong mages and should be using the magic phase to their advantage. As has been so aptly pointed out that they suck in so many other ways. Why is it so weird to understand that they are going to try and dominate the magic phase and through that win the game? It almost like saying that the empire or dwarves shouldn't use war machines to win. I really wish people would lay off of the High Elves magic phase. Empire and Dwarves and other armies use war machines as a huge advantage and winning factor. High Elves use magic. It's okay that they mitigate some of the randomness with the Banner of Sorcery or even Teclis.

DarkAngelHopeful

This.

Also, to all the Teclis haters out there (read: everyone), at 1900+ points, the minimum size game in which Teclis can be taken, get good magical defences or a way to beat Teclis. If you don't, quit complaining about how the big scary mage killed your plastic toys.

I think that one of their (the haters) points, though. There is very limited magical defence against him because most of his stuff is cast with IF.

Jin wrote:@iLLiTHiD -

You know, as soon as the HE Army Book came out 3 years ago and people found out that they were getting racial ASF, people have been crying out 'CHEESE' and 'OMFGBBQ BROKENZ' about them. In practice (and partially owing to Army Book Creep) they're not considered Top Tier barring 1-2 builds (usually involving Teclis). Even with 8th Edition out and ASF providing re-rolls, High Elves struggle somewhat because of high points-cost/model and T3/5+Svs all around (for the most part). They have a high damage output overall, but if they don't do enough damage, chances are those hit-backs from Step Up are going to cause a lot of casualties. Steadfast doesn't help them out especially either. Changes to template hits (anything under templates hit now, no more partial hits) also really really hurt HEs, for the aforementioned T3/5+Sv issue.

Movement/charging has never remained irrelevant as getting in Flank Charges reduces the number of people hitting back and charging grants you a +1 to Combat Resolution. If anything, being able to pull of the Flank Charge is more important than before.

Re: TKs - rumors are that they're slated for Q1/2 of next year. As it is, they're not the best army out there, but given changes in Magic and rulings on TK Magic, they can be quite a deadly force, and their Magic Phase scales up really really well with the current rule-set. Dunno on what they're planning on changing about the army, though.

Thanks for your reply.

So prehaps movement, and shooting are more important. And it seems that having a strong magic phase is alot more important now too. Are we seeing a transition to more level 4 wizards in the 2000 point bracket opposed to the scroll caddy?

I was going to play dark elves back in 6th/7th edition, but never committed to them (had the army book but that was all i brought - a waste i guess) Then again, im planning on taking dark eldar in 40k, i think dark *elves* as well would be abit much - so i'll be looking to test the waters with another fantasy army. Please tell me if there's anything i get terribly wrong in the fundimentals of this new edition if my assessmentopinion is out of date (it most likey will be)

Ones that intrest me are:

Lizardmen
Empire
Tomb Kings
Woof Elves

Lizardmen - I hear only good things about this army, except prehaps their lower initiative. Possesses strong magic, good skirmishers, resistance to psychology, tougher melee warriors, some nice linebreakers (stegadons, cold ones, kroxigors). War machine salamander may be the only other thing slightly lacking in presence/firepower.


Empire - im quite tempted to also return to playing these guys. A great all-comers army from memory - ability to field large numbers of a variety of troops. Outriders were gold back in the day as flank harrassment. Weaker psychology would mean a BSB as a must. ARe their war machines still as unrelaible? One rule i did pick up - no more guessing. A great boon for this army, for sure.


TOmb Kings - another contender - kind of been the underdog of fantasy ever since they split undead into two armies. Lack of hard hitting units that are able to be effectively moved around , with the limitations of the older magic phases meant just fielding a *ton* of skeletal bowmen. Fearwide army a boon. Two big weaknesses are the reliance on magic phase to be able to even fight on par with an enemy army, that and the weakness of SP assassin units to take out the hierophant, and thus cause the collapse of the army. Unless this army is given some serious love, probably best left on the sheft.


Woof elves - the weakest of the three elf armies. Still the impressive ability to field mass skrimisher units can really destroy some armies. I wish i knew more on this army, only that I know they are expensive (elves), they are very lightly armoured, even for elves, and that they are mostly, if not completely, a skirimisher army. I supose movement and shooting are the msot vital aspects of this army - how are they coping in the metagame so far?

Most broken army i ever saw was when an earthquaqe hit just after the guy opened his army case right on the edge of the counter... so many pieces.

HoverBoy wrote:Most broken army i ever saw was when an earthquaqe hit just after the guy opened his army case right on the edge of the counter... so many pieces.

Thread winner.