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ShivanAngel wrote:The problem with characters is some of them are just stupid powerful for the cost. While other army books characters are just complete garbage.

For example, Teclis is INSANE for 475 points. Daemon special characters (especially their hero level) are also extremely undercosted for what they do... 90 points for 5 WS 7, I7 S4 armor piercing attacks, with 3+ ward and an ability that can drop a units leadership or movement by D3... Thats insane.

Not allowing special characters just evens the playing field quite a bit.

I wouldn't say that it evens the playing field. I'd say more along the lines of redistributing power, that being, there is just something else that is more powerful than everyone else instead of the previous thing what was more powerful.

Also, I believe there is a way to counter anything in the game. You just have to figure out how.

Yes there is a way to counter everything in the game, thats not the issue.

The issue lies where you have to build a good portion of your list to counter one specific part of the metagame. That is what isnt balanced. If you are having to build your list a specific way IN CASE a specific special character is there that isnt balanced.

Also another example, and there isnt a counter to this.

Masque drops your leadership by three, then you take another -2 to your leadership from the banner of daemonic legions. So your sitting at -5. Then you get forced to take a panic test on what is probably a 1 to possible a 5 ( AT BEST). How is that balanced... There is NOTHING you can do about either of those things, they cant be stopped.

When you can say ok i need to build a list to have some decent magic defense, something to deal with war machines, a way to deal a fighty lord if they bring one. etc....

When you have to do all the above, then go, well the might bring teclis soooo.... That hurts the balance of the game. When your spending points to counter ONE specific hero.

There are lots of combos like that yes that might work against 1 unit and then the masque will probably die in the following turn, but you have to pay for all these combos and i dont see them as overpowered. Same with teclis its really not that hard to kill him or make him flee along with his unit.

Last game i played my opponent had 2 hellcannons and had the tzeentch Pandemonium spell in place and some other item -1 leadership any1 in line of site(i think) and was making me take panic tests in nearly every phase possible, it wasnt fun.

ShivanAngel wrote:
Also another example, and there isnt a counter to this.

Masque drops your leadership by three, then you take another -2 to your leadership from the banner of daemonic legions. So your sitting at -5. Then you get forced to take a panic test on what is probably a 1 to possible a 5 ( AT BEST). How is that balanced... There is NOTHING you can do about either of those things, they cant be stopped.

I haven't been able to play a game yet as I'm deployed, but with this scenario, would you be able to magic or shoot them to death so they don't send you packing? I'm not doubting that it's a pretty nasty combo, but I'm curious as to why you wouldn't avoid them if you could? Also, I've never played against that combo before, so I'm not familiar with the mechanics of how it works.

First banner of daemonic legion is -2 leadership to anything within 12 inches of it. So its bunkered for a while

Second the masques can drop a unit within 12 inches leadership by D3, combined that can be up to -5 Leadership. Sure she ahs to be within 12 inches, but a 3+ ward can be tough to chew through.

Then there are multiple ways to exploit that.

Charge them with one of your terror causers
Make them take a panic test
There is a slaanesh spell that makes a model pass a ld test or suffer D6 wounds with no armor saves
There is another one that the unit takes D6 strength 5 hits, then they take a leadership test, if they fail they take another D6 Str5 hits, repeat until they pass (I have killed entire units with this combo, testing on Ld 2-3 is not fun).
There is a Daemon ability that forces then target to take a leadership test or attack his unit instead of the daemon

Its cheesy as all hell tbh.

Yeah its kinda cheesy and if you roll well it can potentially make a unit flee but the masque on her owns really not that hard unless your a ranged unit or warmachine so after doing that combo once your unlikely to use it again.

Also if you charge with the terror user that would have to be in your following turn after youve set the masque up to be 12inches away?

I would say thoreks just as broke tougness 10 and can deploy completely hid so you cant get to him except by maybe some skirmishers with scout which will die 1st turn from wrath and ruin d3 units 2d6 strength 4 hits no line of sight and you cant really stop it except with that elf item which makes it harder =).

I have no opinion, since I haven't played since 6th (thinking of finally returning to my skavens though) but I just had to ask:

DarkAngelHopeful, what country do you come from, I can't remember that I have seen that flag anywhere?

I think it's a bit early to say if any one army qualifies. Some are certainly stronger than others. Of the armies I've seen in action Dark Elves, Lizardmen, Skaven, WoC and Empire certainly are strong. I have not been impressed with High Elves without Teclis. VC aren't the powerhouse they were but can still be competitive. There are also several armies I just have not faced yet (demons, dwarves, brets, beastmen, and Ogres off the top of my head).

Vargtass wrote:I have no opinion, since I haven't played since 6th (thinking of finally returning to my skavens though) but I just had to ask:

DarkAngelHopeful, what country do you come from, I can't remember that I have seen that flag anywhere?

I'm from the US. However, the flag you see is the Afghanistan Flag as I am currently there.

ShivanAngel wrote:Charge them with one of your terror causers
Make them take a panic test
There is a slaanesh spell that makes a model pass a ld test or suffer D6 wounds with no armor saves
There is another one that the unit takes D6 strength 5 hits, then they take a leadership test, if they fail they take another D6 Str5 hits, repeat until they pass (I have killed entire units with this combo, testing on Ld 2-3 is not fun).
There is a Daemon ability that forces then target to take a leadership test or attack his unit instead of the daemon

Its cheesy as all hell tbh.

It does rely on getting that unit within 12" of a unit that isn't immune to psychology, which is something that can't be guaranteed. It is a goofy combination, like a lot of other stacked combos, and I don't like it for that reason. But it isn't overpowered, as there's a considerable gamble on the part of the user as well, he could sink those points into a unit that's lined up against a unit immune to psychology, at which point it does nothing. And it isn't as though breaking a unit actually destroys them, they can reform and rejoin the combat.


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thelordoflife wrote:And for all those bloody people who dont allow you to use characters.. seriously are you going to deny one of the main points of the game? the glory of heros..

While characters and heroes are a core of the game, for a lot of people it isn't about watching Games Workshops heroes tromp all over the battlefield. If nothing else it makes the Warhammer world feel very small, with the same handful of heroes turning up to fight in every single skirmish. I can't imagine how many frequent flier miles Teclis has earned by now, with all the battles he must have fought in.

If enough people in a playing group feel that way, who are you to say they're doing it wrong?

DarkAngelHopeful wrote:

Vargtass wrote:I have no opinion, since I haven't played since 6th (thinking of finally returning to my skavens though) but I just had to ask:

DarkAngelHopeful, what country do you come from, I can't remember that I have seen that flag anywhere?

I'm from the US. However, the flag you see is the Afghanistan Flag as I am currently there.

Awesome, if you meet any swedes, tell em I said hi!

Sebster, where yeh i agree that some characters are OP my opinion is as follows.

Who are you to tell people who like to play fluffy with characters are not aloowed to use them?
The people that deny people anything Characters,purple sun, and 15+ should just suck it up
come on, stop being such babies. nothing in the game is TOO powerful, teclis still isnt that great and hes like 1/4 of your army.
if you shoot the hell out of teclis it will cumble, that daemon thing with the LD modifiers is limited to 12"
Everyone is discussing "IF"'s and "but" and i say.. theres a million scenarios people can go.. ill do this.. so ill counter it with this..
but the truth is every army has a counter for everything. and stop with the situational crap
how did that daemon unit manage to single out one unit to make em flee where all the units around the fleeing one will counter charge that unit and nock it sensless. you payed all those points to make one unit run thats just going to rally next time before your unit gets pounded?

Nothing is overpowered.

I don't know. I don't think I can get on board with the "nothing is overpowered" crowd. I'm still happy to play against any kind of build, but I would definitely be interested in events that shake things up. I think this becomes more important later in the game edition when cookie-cutter lists start to fall into place, and everything's going to look the same without a restriction or two.

As to the effect of comp, it's true that no system will result in a perfectly level playing field. The argument for it, though is this:

We're going to have a race. You can choose to get any kind of bicycle, or you can pick a motorcycle.

Now we'll have a comped race. You can't choose the motorcycle, but you can pick any of the bicycles. Some are definitely better than others, and maybe there's even a "best", but none are as far ahead of any others as the motorcycle was.

Having said all this, I should note that my typical play area has no comp guidelines. Some players "self-comp" but many don't.

thelordoflife wrote:Sebster, where yeh i agree that some characters are OP my opinion is as follows.

Did you read my post? I made a passing reference to power level at best, noting that there are other reasons special characters are not liked by a lot of players. They make the Warhammer world feel very small, as suddenly most battles have one or more named characters. It becomes silly when Teclis turns up to fight in every other High Elf fight.

Who are you to tell people who like to play fluffy with characters are not aloowed to use them?

I'm not telling anyone they can't use Teclis in their games. Go crazy fighting battle after battle of Teclis vs Mannfred, as both great warriors turn up to every possible skirmish ever fought by the High Elves or the Vampire Counts. What I am saying is there are plenty of reasons for people to not want characters, and power balance is only one. If that sentiment is common enough in a group, they should be free to say 'no special characters, thanks'.

The same is true of anything else in the game. I don't think magic is as overpowered as many have claimed and am happy to play with it, but there is no denying that a bit of good dice on a magic roll can swing a whole game. Some people prefer that a game is decided more by maneouvre and the proper use of regular troops than one or two big spells, and if enough people in a group feel that way it only makes sense that they restrict options that they feel make the game poorer.

If you disagree and want the powerful spells and special characters, you're free to convince that group to allow them back in, to join another group or form your own group. What makes no sense is to tell them they're doing it wrong, because they're not playing the way you like to play.

Nothing is overpowered.

Well that's just nonsense. Of course some options are going to be more powerful than others. Certain combinations are going to combine effects to be even more overpowered. There's a conversation to be had about the best ways to address that issue, but denying that anything can ever be overpowered is just being silly.

I also agree that it's good to shake things up, but where I used to game (irish WFB tournament scene) heavy comp is the norm, not the exception, and I found it pretty irritating. As far as I'm aware, no events in Ireland allow special characters. I find that to be pretty annoying, because certain builds (trogg and his trolls are a prime example) are unplayable without them. And the troll army is not OP, and quite fluffy. It's also bad because if you're getting into the hobby, you initially probably think that the rules in the books, are, you know, the rules. I had built a large unit of black orcs lead by grimgor ironhide back in 7th, when I was looking at getting back to playing. The idea was a nice big immune to pscyh block to deal with some of the nasties out there. But then I found out grimgor was banned, an I'd just spent all that money for a unit I wouldn't be able to use. It is especially frustrating for those of us on a budget.
That said, comped events can be fun. But I think that they should never be "the norm".

sebster wrote:Well that's just nonsense. Of course some options are going to be more powerful than others. Certain combinations are going to combine effects to be even more overpowered. There's a conversation to be had about the best ways to address that issue, but denying that anything can ever be overpowered is just being silly.

I still dont think anything is overpowered there are models that are cheap for how effective they are and there are combos that can be very powerful but nothing is unbeatable in 8th edition, magic is powerful but its very random you may only get a couple of PD every magic phase.

Teclis is meant to be overpowered, not really you can get a normal mage with book hoeth whos nearly as good - a few rules which you have to pay for when you buy teclis, and the mage is less likely to die from dwellers.

Yeah a normal mage with book of hoeth is pretty much as good as teclis...

Except for loremaster
Choosing lores before each fight
D3 bonus casting/dispell dice
Ignoring the first miscast
A dispell scroll that can destroy a spell (in addition to being able to take a second dispell scroll)

The archmage has, 1 more BS, WS, T, and Str....

Yup all that stuff is barely worth the 115 more points....

I thought it was determined that Teclis has to pick his lore when the list is made like other mages due to the brb trumping army selection rules.

Having a lvl 4 mage is nearly garunteed to get the big spell you want, so loremaster is meh,Banner of sorcerey can easily be added for the point cost difference, and the main reason teclis always dies is from 1 dwellers at least the mage option has a slight better chance to survivie.

As i stated in the previous post some characters are cheap for what you get but you can tool up normal characters for cheaper and are nearly as good.

DarkAngelHopeful wrote:I thought it was determined that Teclis has to pick his lore when the list is made like other mages due to the brb trumping army selection rules.

MEh its being argued both ways....

Still, you cant tell me all that other crap is only worth 115 points....

Loremaster generally cost about 50 points depending on army book,
Immune to first miscast on every turn is easily worth 50 (daemon equivilant is first miscast ONLY and is 25)
d3 power dice is worth at least 50
The dispell scroll that can destroy a spell is about 50.
I wont count his little sword that wound on a 2+ since oyu dont want him in combat, buts thats easily another 50 also.

If it turns out he can pick his spells before every fight, like most people do with him. I would easily say thats worth about 250-300 points.

Also since banner of sorcery STACKS with tecli's little rule, you cant say just take banner of sorcery instead. Being a level 4 you have a 66 % chance of getting the big spell, thats not a garuntee. So loremaster is pretty damn good.

Im simply stating that no build of HE level 4 mage can come close to matching the power of that hero.

Some characters power can be matched by a tooled out lord. However some characters (teclis, Skulltaker, Masque, Kairos, and many others) cant even be approached.

ShivanAngel wrote:

DarkAngelHopeful wrote:I thought it was determined that Teclis has to pick his lore when the list is made like other mages due to the brb trumping army selection rules.

MEh its being argued both ways....

Still, you cant tell me all that other crap is only worth 115 points....

Loremaster generally cost about 50 points depending on army book,
Immune to first miscast on every turn is easily worth 50 (daemon equivilant is first miscast ONLY and is 25)
d3 power dice is worth at least 50
The dispell scroll that can destroy a spell is about 50.
I wont count his little sword that wound on a 2+ since oyu dont want him in combat, buts thats easily another 50 also.

If it turns out he can pick his spells before every fight, like most people do with him. I would easily say thats worth about 250-300 points.

Also since banner of sorcery STACKS with tecli's little rule, you cant say just take banner of sorcery instead. Being a level 4 you have a 66 % chance of getting the big spell, thats not a garuntee. So loremaster is pretty damn good.

Im simply stating that no build of HE level 4 mage can come close to matching the power of that hero.

Some characters power can be matched by a tooled out lord. However some characters (teclis, Skulltaker, Masque, Kairos, and many others) cant even be approached.

Well, I agree that Teclis is powerful and maybe not as expensive as he could be, but if you've never lost to the High Elves, including Teclis, there appears to be some balance built into the army somewhere, right?

Also, a lvl 4 mage has a 72% chance of rolling any doubles on 4D6. Thus, if you roll a double you keep one of the spells and you can choose any other. So, a lvl 4 mage really has a decent shot of getting the big spell.

Well its mainly because high elfs are not that good lol (in my opinion) take a 2k point game teclis 25%,crap core 25%, pheonix gaurd 25% with banner of sorcerey and then another 25% for warmachine hunters/maybe a hero or a few swordmasters. Its not exactly a scary army to face.

Im not saying he doesnt have a weakness, he most definately does (which my lists in these tournies had ways to exploit, they had to , or i would have lost).

However like in the above example, having to build your army list or a certain character to counter A SINGLE MODEL, is not balanced.

Thats all i am really trying to get across.

There was a time that you would try to keep at least 8" between your troops and the nearest hill or heap of rocks when playing against high elves...

...I guess nothing ever really changes

bennyboy6189 wrote:I still dont think anything is overpowered there are models that are cheap for how effective they are and there are combos that can be very powerful but nothing is unbeatable in 8th edition

Being cheap for how effective a unit is is what people mean by 'overpowered'.

And again, there are lots of reasons to ban particular units that aren't just to do with game balance. Hell, I run Empire so if I expect I'm going to face Teclis I'd happily just shoot the guy with a load of Long Rifles. This is absolutely not about me worrying about how I might face Teclis.

But games with extremely powerful special characters generally revolve around killing that one particular guy before he does too much damage. This can be a fun variation to regular games for a lot of people, for a lot of other people it's a distraction from the meat and veg of the core game. I can understand if an area's meta included lots of powerful characters like Teclis that people might say get sick of it and organise a tournament that refocussed on the core of the game.

sebster wrote:

bennyboy6189 wrote:I still dont think anything is overpowered there are models that are cheap for how effective they are and there are combos that can be very powerful but nothing is unbeatable in 8th edition

Being cheap for how effective a unit is is what people mean by 'overpowered'.

And again, there are lots of reasons to ban particular units that aren't just to do with game balance. Hell, I run Empire so if I expect I'm going to face Teclis I'd happily just shoot the guy with a load of Long Rifles. This is absolutely not about me worrying about how I might face Teclis.

But games with extremely powerful special characters generally revolve around killing that one particular guy before he does too much damage. This can be a fun variation to regular games for a lot of people, for a lot of other people it's a distraction from the meat and veg of the core game. I can understand if an area's meta included lots of powerful characters like Teclis that people might say get sick of it and organise a tournament that refocussed on the core of the game.

If you spend a whole turn killing a praticular special character then you will probably do so, with empire or dwarfs if i concentrate everything at the unit teclis is in hes dead and so is his unit.
And with the price of teclis/bodyguard its pretty much game over, if you kill 1 of these special characters that are overpowered(and your opponent relys on this character to win) he will probably just admit defeat 1st turn as its happened to me alot,or they want a rematch.

I think 8th edition is fairly balanced, well at least alot more than 7th.

Being the old veteran that I am, I say that it's perfectly normal to restrict named characters and magic items, and maybe even magic lores at tournaments... it's how I know tournaments to be!
I have witnessed the HeroHammer era, and I tell you, all you warhammerites, that you still talk about the same stuff as 12 years ago!
However, 12 years ago, Set Limits were broadly accepted by tournament players. And rightly so. Special Characters have always been more like an appendix of the army book than something from it's core. They were always in the back of the book, all previous chapters dealing with troops, war machines and normal characters. At the end came the special characters and 6th edition even ruled: "get your opponents agreement before you field a special character" in the opening of the special characters chapter.
Over the years, and it was a special aim of 6th edition, GW has attempted to un-herohammer warhammer... They did this with tournament limits in 5th edition (which were also very popular outside tournaments, because it reduced power-gaming.... a little) and with the new force organisation and magic (item) rules in 6th edition.
In fact, named characters weren't even the main problem, it was the enormous liberty one had with magic items, characters and flying monsters... hehe, unnamed characters could be 10 times as dangerous as teclis, provided you gave 'em the right equipment (auto-kill sword, to-hit-roll bonus enchanted item, spell eater shield, flying monster)

However, suddenly they forget all about their effort to un-herohammer the game, and make named characters an integral part of the army-list! in a contemporary army book you get the special characters before the normal character and troop options... and they're Part of the LIst, rather than an Appendix... and you don't need permission to use them! What do these people want? damn GW, make up your mind!

In my opinion, named characters are nice as painting/modelling projects and the occassional special scenario or even mini-campaign... They should never be a regular component of your army.

Unfortunately, GW's target demographic has become younger: little boys who want the strongest of the strong etc. I remember being young too, and wanting the Emperor on the Griffon, because it was apparently the strongest unit of the empire army, and the tank, unstoppable! Oh and Thyrus Gorman with the Staff of Volans! that would teach my brother's teclis!
And GW remembers too... It knows what we are like when we are imaginative 13 year old boys who want a wargame... Heroes riding unspeakable monsters facing off against powerful wizards casting spells of mass destruction!

The fact that they include a prince on griffon in their new starter set is a tell-tale sign...

I don't have to be a nostalgic for herohammer anymore... GW is also going "retro"!

All of this hurts to look at. Special characters are a part of the game, as are lores and the like and there is nothing wrong with people using either. Don't like characters? Hate certain lores? Then there is this lovely game called Hordes you could look into. I'll say to these folk as I say to all people who enjoy whine with cheese: Go play chess. It's far more acceptable socially, rules are constant and you can find players everywhere and anywhere you go. Also it can be very cost effective... But watch out for queens you may find them broken ;p

happydude wrote:But watch out for queens you may find them broken ;p

Hahaha funniest thing ive heard in a while.

My vote goes for Skaven - being able to take huge units of 2 point slaves, 10 deep or more, as well as power scroll grey seers with dreaded 13th. Throw in a hellpit or two, with a warp lightning cannon or two - ouch.

Or scouting multiple units of poisoned sling armed gutter runners, pop storm banner if you go second and watch a gunline army dissapear.

The problem I have with the army is that there were no negatives really that affect the army and everything that is strong in 8th (templates, hordes, Leadership, steadfast) directly benefits Skaven so that they are incredibly hard to do anything against.