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I don't think Canis is that bad, nobody is just using him in a correct way IMHO.

Most of the times when I see Canis used, they put him with some TWC that has a Thunder Hammer and a few Storm Shields and then go Monster/Tank Hunting.

What he is for is Hoards, Orks, Nids and such, much like Flamer armed Bikes. Him a few TWC or Fenrisian Wolves have a good chance of just crush large hordes of infantry.

You can take him his two wolves and a 15 model Fenrisian Wolf Pack and give him a total of 20 wounds. Once you impact you can get close to 80+ Attacks.

So he does not have an Invulnerable Save, 98% of the models out there don’t have a Invulnerable Save.
So he does not have Eternal Warrior, 98% of the models out there don’t have a Eternal Warrior.

If you have Experiences with him let us know.

Let’s try to keep this friendly.

He blows, and the model looks like he is riding a giant freaking cat.... Ugly.

I have bad experiences on the recieving side of him...
I was playing a friends 'nids for a turn or 2 while he was going to the toilet he managed to get into CC and ripped apart a 20-strong unit of Hormagaunts, poor bio-engineered sods, he then went on to get killed by a very upset mummy Hive Tyrant, but still 1 turn of CC and 1 squad/brood/whatever gone and that was him on his own.

His model is very goofy. It's better to spend the extra 15 points and make a Wolf Lord with a belt of Russ, two claws, and a thudnerwolf. Give him saga of the beastslayer and then go monster hunting.

Personally I think the model is hilarious and use it somewhat often with my Wolves.

You mean beside all the rules ha has that does nothing(or at least are "foggy" as to what they do)?

That would be the fact that your proposed unit is now a Troops Choice and Can never Score(supernumery)

And the Wrath of the savage requires that he get into Base-to-base with more than 5 models to be of any use; which can and should be very difficult unless you are running him solo.

Then you get into the whole Fangir issue where you are essentially paying points for a piece of wargear that does not tell you what it does(I hate that; Fangir improves his profile but we have no idea how)

Next you have his "rending' special rule; what the crap does that even mean? Rending is a weapon ability; at least with the TWC they say Rending(close combat only) which can lead us to assume they mean their attacks in CC gain the rending special rule.

Finally there is the lord of the Wolfkin and Saga of the Wolfkin; I5 and Ld7(8 within 12' of Canis) Is not that great when those Wolves are non-scoring troops(and just a +1Ld is not great either)

Kommissar Kel wrote:You mean beside all the rules ha has that does nothing(or at least are "foggy" as to what they do)?

That would be the fact that your proposed unit is now a Troops Choice and Can never Score(supernumery)

So they Don’t Score…So What, they are cheep an effective in close combat and they still can contest. If you need to Score get tom Grey Hunters and Blood Claws.

And the Wrath of the savage requires that he get into Base-to-base with more than 5 models to be of any use; which can and should be very difficult unless you are running him solo.

And when it does happen you Crush Units.

Then you get into the whole Fangir issue where you are essentially paying points for a piece of wargear that does not tell you what it does(I hate that; Fangir improves his profile but we have no idea how)

I believe they are already included.

Next you have his "rending' special rule; what the crap does that even mean? Rending is a weapon ability; at least with the TWC they say Rending(close combat only) which can lead us to assume they mean their attacks in CC gain the rending special rule.

Concidering he has no ranged weapons so it and he has no other weapon I think that answers its own question.

Finally there is the lord of the Wolfkin and Saga of the Wolfkin; I5 and Ld7(8 within 12' of Canis) Is not that great when those Wolves are non-scoring troops(and just a +1Ld is not great either)

See my Above Statement


I am not saying you can’t build a better Wolf Lord, What I am saying is he can still be uesfull.

I am also not judging the Model, I am sure there can be better made.

Hail!

Personally, I think that Canis is a very useful model. Granted, he has his weaknesses, but for what, 180 points (codex isn't in front of me) he is a fine Special character for the Sons of Russ.

I usually take him with a squad of 15 Fenrisian Wolves and keep him in cover to ensure he gets in to close combat.
His Lord of the Wolfkin makes your 8 point wolves very effective MEQ killers at I5, that is if you are careful and keep them safe from, well... any sort of fire X_x''''

I think its an awesome model, and I think he is a VERY much needed breath of fresh air for most Space Wolves armies. He's a very risk/reward type model, and I think that taking that risk is why we are drawn to play Space Wolves!

Praise Russ and the Allfather!

I have never experienced anything close to a hard time shooting him off the board, without EW or an inv save, there is the problem.

In fact, i'm pretty sure a tactical squad with a PFist would have a good chance at taking that squad you mentioned down, given cover and some upgrades.

I hate him for two reasons.

First, the wolf he's riding is an ugly son of a bitch that looks like it's been eating paint chips.

Second, "Canis Wolfborn" is a perfect example of the reviled "Wolf Wolferson" school of naming.

AlexHolker wrote:I hate him for two reasons.

First, the wolf he's riding is an ugly son of a bitch that looks like it's been eating paint chips.

Second, "Canis Wolfborn" is a perfect example of the reviled "Wolf Wolferson" school of naming.

This is why I hate him.

I've never even seen him on the tabletop.

I think the OP is speaking of Canis' rules, not his silly name or model.

Canis is a bargain special that is cheaper than taking a Wolf Lord with the same setup. Additionally, he allows you to have 8pt I5 2A S4 models, which isn't too shabby.

I am not sure running him in a SS TWC unit is ideal- as pointed out fenrisan wolves work just fine as a meat shield. If you need to maximize attacks from his special rule, just just leave during the movement phase and assault.

As to EW, he is T5, so unless you are packing S10, no worries. A S8 PFist won't do it. And a tactical squad will get butchered unless it is in cover. As will most things. On his own, he is throwing out, what, 6 S5 PW attacks hitting on 3s with reroll hit or damage? With a unit of 10 wolves that is 30 more S4 attacks on I5. Not too horrible.

Beastslayer is cool, too. But in my area, I see *alot* more IG and SMs than MCs. So it varies.

@Anpu42:

So they Don’t Score…So What, they are cheep an effective in close combat and they still can contest. If you need to Score get tom Grey Hunters and Blood Claws.

Which is a problem for some people. Why give him a crazy useless ability...that seems like a signature ability of his? Do you really want that many FA slots available? If you are then you are prob. not gonna have enough points to hit a critical mass of Grey Hunters.

And when it does happen you Crush Units.

Which is a problem as his output is dependent on him running solo and solo characters are not hard to kill. Which ends up he's a fire and forget model (which is not everyone's cup of tea).

Concidering he has no ranged weapons so it and he has no other weapon I think that answers its own question.

I think you may have missed the point, he has a Pair of Lightning claws that by RAW overrides having rending....and thus another useless rule attached to him.

All in all, I will third AlexHolker's post.
"Yo, What Up Dawg. I heard you like wolves. So we put a wolf on a wolf so you can wolf while you are wolfing."

Cue inspiring picture from the next poster to match quote

180 points (IIRC) is a very expensive FaF model.

I mean, I worry about my suicide Shas'el at 77 points. I can't imagine paying 180 points for similar.

Actually he is Dirt Cheep [points wise]

Wolf Lord in Power Armor 215 points (Wolf Tail Talisman; Wolftooth Necklace; Thunderwolf Mount; Wolf Claw x2, Saga of the Wolfkin)

Canis Wolfborn @ 185 pts (Power Armor; Wolf Tail Talisman; Wolftooth Necklace; 2x Wolf Claws, Lord of the Wolfkin; Rending; Wrath of the Savage; Saga of the Wolfkin)

This is the only way to make a more Killy Unit

Iron Priest @ 170 pts (Runic Armor; Servo Arm; Thunderwolf Mount; Wolf Tail Talisman; Wolftooth Necklace; Thunder Hammer; Bolt Pistol)
-4x Cyberwolf

As far as the Rending, If you want argue that it says he has the Special Rule: Rending with no further explanation
So do Assault Cannons it just says Heavy 4, Rending, with further explanation.

To me and many others that seem very clear.

To me it looks like the argument If a IC joins a unit it looses its “Special Rule: Infiltration” even if the IC has the Infiltration Rule because he joined the unit.

Lets try this
-In his profile it says he has Rending.
-He has Wolf Claws which he can not choose not to use.
-He has Rending which he can not choose not to use.
Therefore He must rend with his attacks he does not have an option to not use it so to deny him his rending is against RAW.

There is also precedence for Rending Special Power Weapons out there, Shrike’s “The Raven’s Talons” is just one of them, so Rending Power Weapons out there.

How exactly is 185 points for an HQ with Canis's capabilities anything approaching "Cheep[sic]"?

I find Canis is too fragile from a Leadership perspective, especially to tank shocks!! LD 8 is not high enough to reliably hold him even with a big mob of F-Wolves in tow. And once he breaks that rearmoist F-Wolf that is at the back of the pack makes a 3D6" beeline for the board edge.

Er... he just did Saint, 30 points cheaper than an eqivalent wolf lord with his extras, seems like a pretty good discount to me.

SaintHazard wrote:How exactly is 185 points for an HQ with Canis's capabilities anything approaching "Cheep[sic]"?

How many SW HQ units have you Build?

Ther than the Runic Priest and the Wolf Priest you are looking at spending at 120+ points to come up with anthing good, unless you are using Wolf Guard Battle Leaders. A Wolf Lord with just a Power Weapon and a Belt of Russ is 140 and the Saga of the Bear will make it 175. With just a Thunder Wolf Mount only he is going to run you 145 points.

Jesus riding an obese squirrel.

Of course there are

Anpu - sorry, RAW Canis rending does NOTHING as it does not "stack" with the Wolf claws. Have a look at the SW FAQ hich answers what happens with TWC and special weapons.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Anpu - sorry, RAW Canis rending does NOTHING as it does not "stack" with the Wolf claws. Have a look at the SW FAQ hich answers what happens with TWC and special weapons.

Then why is his Rending Rule Written Different than the entry for Thunder Wolf Cavalry?

Canis: Rending [In both the Description and Army List]
Thunder Wolf Cavalry: Rending (Close Combat Only) [In both the Description and Army List]

2 things about the Rending:

Anpu; you said the asscannon rending does nothing that is not true; rending is a weapon quality. It is found as a rule in the Special weapon rules of the brb as it effects attacks made with certain weapons.

and

A character with the Special rule: rending does nothing at all, because a character is not a weapon. Further on this look to both the TWM entry and the MoW entry; TWM says the model "has the rending special rule in close combat with any attack that does not use a special weapon". MoW says: "A model bearing the mark of the wulfen has the rending special rule in close combat." Both of these entries clearly state that the models with said wargear gain rending on close combat attacks.

TWC implies the same thing(and the FAQ ignores the fact that they are not on TWM; arbitrarily applying a restriction for mounts to a unit that does not have them).

Then the FAQ is Silent about Canis; so either the rule does nothing, we take the Logical leap that his Wolf Claws gain the rending rule in close combat(again he is not mounted on a thunderwolf mount, fangir's entry is pure fluff); or we again arbitrarily apply the Mount's restriction like GW did and he now has a special rule that does nothing at all(being negated by special weapons).

Then how does he use his Special Ability: Rending?

Is it a Typo or a Non-existant Rule?

Canis doesn't suck, but he should've been a TWC upgrade character instead of an HQ choice. Leadership 8 with no invulnerable save doesn't help his cause either.

gojira316 wrote:Canis doesn't suck, but he should've been a TWC upgrade character instead of an HQ choice. Leadership 8 with no invulnerable save doesn't help his cause either.

I do agree that he would have made a good Upgrade, I had not thought about that.

So he does not have an Invulnerable Save, 98% of the models out there don’t have a Invulnerable Save. Other than the Obvios reasons, why is that so important?

Anpu42 wrote:

gojira316 wrote:Canis doesn't suck, but he should've been a TWC upgrade character instead of an HQ choice. Leadership 8 with no invulnerable save doesn't help his cause either.

I do agree that he would have made a good Upgrade, I had not thought about that.

So he does not have an Invulnerable Save, 98% of the models out there don’t have a Invulnerable Save. Other than the Obvios reasons, why is that so important?

Most Spess Mehreen HQs have some sort of invuln save or another.

Captains and Chapter Masters have Iron Halos, Chaplains have Rosarii, Librarians can take TDA, etc.

A Spess Mehreen HQ with no invuln save is railgun fodder.

I guess I did not put that the right way

Odds are you are not going to run him by himself.
Either he will have a Bunch of Wolves to Soak up wound or 2-5 other TWC, sone with Storm Shields.

That is were His Invunrable Save Comes from, So with that...
Why does "HE" need an Invunrable Save

How often do you run Captains, Chapter Masters, Librarians, and Chaplains on their own?

It really doesn't matter if you're running the HQ with a unit or solo, a 185 point unit with no invuln save is, again, railgun fodder.

To summarize:

1d4chan wrote:Canis Wolfborn: Yes, his name really is "Wolf Wolfborn". He also dual-wields Wolf claws (a weapon unique to the Space Wolves) while riding a gigantic thunder Wolf , and wearing a Wolf tail talisman, and a Wolftooth necklace. He may also be accompanied by up to 2 Fenrisian Wolves. He is marked with the Saga of the Wolfkin (Notice a pattern yet?) and is responsible for at least 80% of the Space Wolf rage threads on /tg/. He's quite nasty in hand-to-hand combat (for his point cost) and has an interesting special rule: Lord of the Wolfkin - This rule allows all units of Wolves within 12" to use Canis' leadership.

Honestly I don't know Space Wolves but I saw the thread name and I could not resist, sorry.