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They're always described as "cunning" rather than intelligent; they fear teleportation, and they're said to not be overly fond of embracing "new" equipment and tactics - like, you know, jump packs. Their "pack" system is rather stupid, when you think about it; failing to reinforce understrength squads is just begging for all the remaining members to get shot up as their combat effectiveness decreases. Their history is kept in oral tradition rather than, say, written down - I suspect in large part because they can't read.

Basically, they come off as beer-swigging bikers and frat boys, which isn't exactly what you associate with military precision. Not only that, but they're intractable, set in their ways, curmudgeonly, even, and hardly flexible. So, beer-swigging bikers...crossed with your crotchety grandparents. Neither one of which would I turn to if I wanted a complex problem solved.

I wouldn't say they are dumb, as the definition of Dumb is the inability to speak. They are just very tribal, very much like humanity was in the past. There is nothing wrong with the "lower culture" of the Space Wolves compared to the other Chapters. In fact I like to think of them as blue collar(see the pun, Wolves, collar..... I know, terrible....), as opposed to white collar.

Oh no, the Space Wolves are uncouth barbarians that love to drink, too bad you could never say that to one in the face or else he would probably make a bowl out of your skull. That or thank you for the compliment and give you some booze.

The idea of the Space Marines is that they are based on old knightly orders and other such warrior cultures (Black Templar based on the Knights Templar, White Scars based on the Mongols), the Space Wolves are based on Vikings (if the references to the Allfather or Fenris wolves didn't give it away) only now they are 9 feet tall, wearing 4 inch thick armor and armed to the teeth. Yeah, maybe their methods aren't the most efficient, doesn't mean they aren't effective.

CrashCanuck wrote:Oh no, the Space Wolves are uncouth barbarians that love to drink, too bad you could never say that to one in the face or else he would probably make a bowl out of your skull. That or thank you for the compliment and give you some booze.

The idea of the Space Marines is that they are based on old knightly orders and other such warrior cultures (Black Templar based on the Knights Templar, White Scars based on the Mongols), the Space Wolves are based on Vikings (if the references to the Allfather or Fenris wolves didn't give it away) only now they are 9 feet tall, wearing 4 inch thick armor and armed to the teeth. Yeah, maybe their methods aren't the most efficient, doesn't mean they aren't effective.

That's true to an extent, but it's important to remember that the overwhelming majority of chapters out there aren't Space Wolves or Black Templars with extreme quirks - such as fighting about as cleverly as your average wolf would, or completely ignoring the utility of pyskers, respectively. Most of them would use a hammer where appropriate, and a screwdriver where appropriate; Space Wolves just seem like they'd use a hammer all the time - and probably not notice if they accidentally caught themselves in the head with it.

Then you have chapters like the Blood Angels, who actively engage in the creation of art, for example, and the Mentors, who exist solely to be smart and cutting-edge. I'm not saying barbarians can't be quite intelligent, but I do agree that the vibe the Space Wolves give off is one of taking pride in...well, not being intelligent.

Space Wolves are the smart kid in class who never shows up on time because he's hungover. They're the people who have an IQ of 130 but accidentally piss all over themselves every other night. In other words, the difference between humans and Space Wolves isn't capability, but alcoholism. Space Wolves are impatient, lazy, easily distracted, and very inclined to simply call it "late enough" in the day and get drunk off their ass. They're smart, but they don't want to do the kind of things that smart humans do, they want to run around and get smashed like they're playing Beat the Barman.

Sorry if I have misunderstood but I thought the Imperium as a whole mistrusted Tech.

I see SW's as being intelligent. Just because they are based on "barbarians" doesn't mean they are stupid or uncultured.

The Vikings that they are based on were not just smelly brutes. They were highly cultured, just not in the same way as the Romans who unfortunately always seem to be the benchmark for defining "civilisation"..

Ragnar certainly seems intelligent in the Space Wolf novels. His head is full of Imperial knowledge, but it seems to be like a barbarian using the wikipedia in that he needs to look stuff up and is unusual amongst the Space Wolves for being curious and thoughtful.

Nurglitch wrote:Ragnar certainly seems intelligent in the Space Wolf novels. His head is full of Imperial knowledge, but it seems to be like a barbarian using the wikipedia in that he needs to look stuff up and is unusual amongst the Space Wolves for being curious and thoughtful.

Doesn't that sort of prove the OP's point?

Just thinking
How much of the fluff indicates that SW's just get off their faces and fight all the time, and how much of that opinion of them is actually misconception due to the stereotypical image of a Viking (itself a fallacy)?

My Codex is downstairs and I'm too comfy to get it

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Sorry if I have misunderstood but I thought the Imperium as a whole mistrusted Tech.

I see SW's as being intelligent. Just because they are based on "barbarians" doesn't mean they are stupid or uncultured.

The Vikings that they are based on were not just smelly brutes. They were highly cultured, just not in the same way as the Romans who unfortunately always seem to be the benchmark for defining "civilisation"..

That's very true, but I don't see it as applying to the Space Wolves - the Space Wolves play to the stereotype rather than the actuality. The Vikings were explorers, traders, cartographers, etc. They were also vicious raiders. Space Wolves play to the last bit, not the first bit.

@Orkeosaurus: Your twin posts just made my day!

Their "pack" system is rather stupid, when you think about it; failing to reinforce understrength squads is just begging for all the remaining members to get shot up as their combat effectiveness decreases. Their history is kept in oral tradition rather than, say, written down - I suspect in large part because they can't read.

And yet...
They survive very well thankyou. So they are doing something right.
oral tradition, rather than indicating illiterate stupidity actually requires a lot of brainpower and mnemonic ability.
Homeric bards iirc memorised the whole of the Illiad and Oddessy. The same feats of memorising the Eddas and the genealogies would be true for the Vikings and presumably the Space Wolves.
Hardly a sign of idiocy.

Seaward wrote:

That's very true, but I don't see it as applying to the Space Wolves - the Space Wolves play to the stereotype rather than the actuality. The Vikings were explorers, traders, cartographers, etc. They were also vicious raiders. Space Wolves play to the last bit, not the first bit.

But that's the entire point of them as Space Marines, it isn't their job to be explorers, traders or cartographers (more of the job description of a Rogue Trader). Their job is to be soldiers, warriors, defenders of mankind. Hence they epitomize the warrior part of the society they emulate.

Seaward:

No, it just means that they have cultural limitations, not intellectual limitations. Observant jews, to use a real-world example, are not stupid for not eating perfectly safe pork, they simply prefer to assume a cultural prohibition against doing so.

CrashCanuck wrote:

Seaward wrote:

That's very true, but I don't see it as applying to the Space Wolves - the Space Wolves play to the stereotype rather than the actuality. The Vikings were explorers, traders, cartographers, etc. They were also vicious raiders. Space Wolves play to the last bit, not the first bit.

But that's the entire point of them as Space Marines, it isn't their job to be explorers, traders or cartographers (more of the job description of a Rogue Trader). Their job is to be soldiers, warriors, defenders of mankind. Hence they epitomize the warrior part of the society they emulate.

I'm not suggesting that they should be explorers, traders, or cartographers, simply pointing out that Vikings were more than guys in hats who went around hitting things; the Space Wolves seem to be depicted as guys in hats who go around hitting things. For what it's worth, the main reason I've never been able to get on board with Space Wolves - aside from the ****ing ridiculous atrocity that is Thunderwolf Cavalry - is that it seems like every opponent in the galaxy would be able to beat the tar out of them simply by coming up with a strategy slightly more involved than "advance!"

Or by putting an ale barrel somewhere on the battlefield and simply letting the Wolves mug each other in an effort to get to it first.

Where does it say SW's are piratical raiders?
Thought they were too busy defending their section of the galaxy against the Xenos?
(stand to be corrected.)

Also re my question posted above your response Seaward, how much of the SW image is simply predjudiced by a fallacious image of Vikings and how much is actual fluff?

Seaward wrote:I'm not suggesting that they should be explorers, traders, or cartographers, simply pointing out that Vikings were more than guys in hats who went around hitting things; the Space Wolves seem to be depicted as guys in hats who go around hitting things. For what it's worth, the main reason I've never been able to get on board with Space Wolves - aside from the ****ing ridiculous atrocity that is Thunderwolf Cavalry - is that it seems like every opponent in the galaxy would be able to beat the tar out of them simply by coming up with a strategy slightly more involved than "advance!"

Or by putting an ale barrel somewhere on the battlefield and simply letting the Wolves mug each other in an effort to get to it first.

You are correct, Vikings were more than just raider in funny pointed hats that were drunk off their asses 24/7 (or whatever time scale they used). But you are missing my point that all Space Marines are supposed to be warriors and nothing else. Yes I know the Blood Angels promote art alot, good for them, but they are also meant to be warriors and are free to pursue the arts so long as it doesn't interfere with their duty to fight the enemies of the Imperium.

Nurglitch wrote:Seaward:

No, it just means that they have cultural limitations, not intellectual limitations. Observant jews, to use a real-world example, are not stupid for not eating perfectly safe pork, they simply prefer to assume a cultural prohibition against doing so.

That's true, but I'm not sure it's an apt analogy. I'm not saying that they always have to use teleportation or jump packs, but having a cultural prohibition - and I believe it's actually described as a superstition - against them would be like, say, the American military having a cultural aversion to airpower. It's simply not pragmatic, and actually kinda ignorant.

Now, you could make the point that the vast majority of 40K fluff is as far removed from pragmatism as possible, and that's very true. I guess my point is just that I agree that the "feel" of Space Wolf fluff makes them seem - how do I put this? - like that while they might not be out-fought by anyone, a relatively flexible, intelligent commander could simply out-think them pretty easily.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

CrashCanuck wrote:
You are correct, Vikings were more than just raider in funny pointed hats that were drunk off their asses 24/7 (or whatever time scale they used). But you are missing my point that all Space Marines are supposed to be warriors and nothing else. Yes I know the Blood Angels promote art alot, good for them, but they are also meant to be warriors and are free to pursue the arts so long as it doesn't interfere with their duty to fight the enemies of the Imperium.

I could be way off here, but I believe I've read fluff where Space Marines do occasionally do more than simply shoot and/or stab everything they see. I'm pretty sure Papa Smurf's done some diplomacy in his day.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Where does it say SW's are piratical raiders?
Thought they were too busy defending their section of the galaxy against the Xenos?
(stand to be corrected.)

Also re my question posted above your response Seaward, how much of the SW image is simply predjudiced by a fallacious image of Vikings and how much is actual fluff?

Nah, didn't mean they were actually piratical raiders, simply that the "RARGH VIKING SMASH" side of the Viking stereotype is what was applied to them, full bore.

As far as how much of their own fluff actually depicts them that way? That's a good question. Has me tempted to pick up some of the SW-centric BL novels, despite my dislike of reading anything not written by Abnett.

Yes, Space Wolves are dumb.

But at least they have the good sense to put their Terminators in Drop Pods instead of using OMGITSUCKDEEPSTRIKE.

Avoiding teleportation is pretty healthy considering the risk of daemonic contamination and the inherent risk of teleport accidents. Superstition can be pretty practical in the 40k universe.

Seaward wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

CrashCanuck wrote:
You are correct, Vikings were more than just raider in funny pointed hats that were drunk off their asses 24/7 (or whatever time scale they used). But you are missing my point that all Space Marines are supposed to be warriors and nothing else. Yes I know the Blood Angels promote art alot, good for them, but they are also meant to be warriors and are free to pursue the arts so long as it doesn't interfere with their duty to fight the enemies of the Imperium.

I could be way off here, but I believe I've read fluff where Space Marines do occasionally do more than simply shoot and/or stab everything they see. I'm pretty sure Papa Smurf's done some diplomacy in his day.

True, but that is the smurfs, not the Wolves, they are the ones that pretty much just shoot and/or stab what comes in front of them. They do have their moments of introspection, 1st war of Armageddon after all the Imp Guard forces were mind wiped, the Wolves were pretty pissed about how unfair that was.

I also imagine the Smurfs diplomacy was only directed towards Tau, Eldar and possibly the odd eloquent rebel leader. Orks and Dark Eldar may get a "leave before we shoot you" comment, but Chaos, Tyranid and Necrons show and recieve no quarter.

Going to have to have a looksee at the fluff too.

I only have the codex though.
I assume there have been no independent anthropological studies?

Rascon wrote:They're always described as "cunning" rather than intelligent; they fear teleportation, and they're said to not be overly fond of embracing "new" equipment and tactics - like, you know, jump packs. Their "pack" system is rather stupid, when you think about it; failing to reinforce understrength squads is just begging for all the remaining members to get shot up as their combat effectiveness decreases. Their history is kept in oral tradition rather than, say, written down - I suspect in large part because they can't read.

Basically, they come off as beer-swigging bikers and frat boys, which isn't exactly what you associate with military precision. Not only that, but they're intractable, set in their ways, curmudgeonly, even, and hardly flexible. So, beer-swigging bikers...crossed with your crotchety grandparents. Neither one of which would I turn to if I wanted a complex problem solved.

OK, as a Space Wolf fan (not player, but fan of the fluff), let me see how many of these I can address:

They don't "fear" teleportation. They prefer to avoid using the arcane and poorly understood technology of teleporters. Given that a teleporter mishap can kill you pretty irretrievably (and in a definitely unheroic manner), this isn't unjustified. When you combine this with a cultural preference for dying in battle (including having your Thunderhawk or Drop Pod shot down) over dying due to a malfunction or a careless tech-adept, this also seems reasonable.

I've never heard of Space Wolves eschewing jump packs for being "new equipment". I've read that they view them as undignified, and better suited to impetuous Blood Claws. I've also read that they prefer to fight "traditionally". Preferring to do something traditionally doesn't mean that you are unaware, or afraid of, or opposed to new technology. Someone can choose to play a miniatures game rather than choosing to play a video game without being curmudgeonly, right?

Failing to reinforce understrength squads could also be viewed as a long term strategy for building unit cohesion. If a unit serves together for a long time, they will presumably develop a high level of loyalty and cooperation, which could easily be undermined by rotating members out of the unit, or introducing unfamiliar new members to the unit. Notice how Space Wolves spring forward to defend their squad-mates aggressively, while other Chapters do not? Notice how Long Fangs are capable of splitting the fire of the unit, while other Devastator units are not? This is a tactical decision, not tying your hands behind your back.

Their history is kept in oral tradition. Notice how this has stymied the Inquisitors who have sought to persecute the Space Wolves for genetic deviancy, heresy, or other violations of Imperial/Ecclesiarchal expectations? Note that the Space Wolves have an uninterrupted history from their founding, through their reunion with their Primarch, to the present day? Note that numerous other Chapters have no idea of their Primarch, or have entire sections of their history expunged, sometimes through the interference of the Inquisition (Storm Wardens)? See how well it works out to have written records?

Beer swigging? Given that Astartes are capable of ingesting quite potent toxins with no effect, I can't see how "beer swigging" can be viewed as reducing their efficiency any more than "water swigging".

Bikers? Given that the Space Wolves ONLY field Blood Claws as bikers (and possibly some Wolf Guard squads), they would actually have proportionately FEWER marines riding bikes than most chapters, which field both Scout Bikers and full Marines on Bikes.

Frat boys? That one I don't know how to address. They can hardly even GET drunk, thanks to their physiology. I suppose that they might chase women, as it's always been unclear whether Space Marines are gelded/sexless/impotent. Do frat boys commonly spearhead planetary assaults?

They are intractable. So are Dark Angels.

Set in their ways. Um. They are a First Founding Legion, which didn't even bow to the Codex Astartes. I would assume that MOST institutions which successfully flourish for thousands of years would probably NEED to be set in their ways, or they wouldn't look much like the Chapter from a few thousand years ago, much less the Founding Legion.

Inflexible. You pick one of the few Chapters that doesn't follow almost ANYTHING from the Codex to call inflexible? What does that make Codex chapters, who are all still following a book written by Rowboat Girlyman (I can spell that more correctly than his real name) thousands of years ago? The Space Wolves are inflexible?

Sigh.

No. All drunk people come up with the best ideas.

Thanks Butcha
Hopefully that will put the boozy berp Viking image to bed.
One can live in hope!

One thing that could be held against the Space Wolves is their Canix Helix defect. I read the Space Wolf novels surrounding Ragnar Blackmane, and, especially around Blood Claws, their feral instinct seems to control them more often than not. In this way, young Wolves might lack in the field of objective, academic thinking compared to Ultramarines or similar chapters.

However, I would argue that controlling their feral side actually forms and strengthens the character of older Wolves. Controlling the beast inside is an act of mental discipline that other chapters (apart from BA) don't know or understand; Space Wolves are known to very, very rarely defect to Chaos, compared to codex chapters. This strength of character and will is, naturally, not directly linked to intelligence, but at least to a certain kind of wisdom, I think.

Rascon wrote:
They're always described as "cunning" rather than intelligent; they fear teleportation, and they're said to not be overly fond of embracing "new" equipment and tactics - like, you know, jump packs. Their "pack" system is rather stupid, when you think about it; failing to reinforce understrength squads is just begging for all the remaining members to get shot up as their combat effectiveness decreases. Their history is kept in oral tradition rather than, say, written down - I suspect in large part because they can't read.

Basically, they come off as beer-swigging bikers and frat boys, which isn't exactly what you associate with military precision. Not only that, but they're intractable, set in their ways, curmudgeonly, even, and hardly flexible. So, beer-swigging bikers...crossed with your crotchety grandparents. Neither one of which would I turn to if I wanted a complex problem solved.

Yeah, no. The Space Wolves don't trust teleportation, their is a differance between fear and trust. The same goes for jet packs, their mind set which comes from their culture is that a warrior should fight with his feet firmly on the ground instead of
launching himself up in the air which makes sense because a basic of combat is to always keep your balance which means one foot on the ground at all times.

As far as embracing "new" technologies are you unaware that the Space Wolves use things like the Land Raider Crusader which is a new variant of the LR in cannon terms? actually I fail to see any technological limitations that set the Space Wolves apart from other chapters as they have access to everything others have (unless your going to nit pick about things like the Thunderfire Cannon or Land Speeder storm which may not be used simply because the SW have no need for them. They simply choose to rely more on the man then the machine.

Concerning their oral tradition the Space Wolves have and use the same memory machines as every other chapter, this is supported numerous times In Space Wolf novels. Again the oral tradition derives from their parent culture as a way of remembering great warriors, battles and sacrifices, this does not mean that their entire history is kept in the minds of bards alone (although company bards are tasked with memorizing the entire history of their great company and many probably do know the whole history). Also it was mentioned above about Ragnar having to look up the information needed, Space Marines are implanted with information of all sorts by learning machines. This information isn't emmediatly available though and usually only comes to light at relevant times or when recalled by the space marine through litanies.

Their pack organisation is simply creating a bonded group of which the strongest will survive. Now if you take a group of men that has trained together, been in a sense "created" together, can predict eachothers every move and then try and replace a lost member of that fraternity with an outsider you're going to have problem. Logan grimnar who is one of the greatest heros of the Imperium is the last surviving member of his original pack and I highly doubt it has hindered his combat effectivness.

In response to your last paragraph (and don't take this the wrong way) but have you even read any fluff about Space Marines or indeed the Space Wolves? All Space Marines are set in their ways, it's called tradition. And in fact the Space Wolves are one of the more tactically flexible chapters that exist. They can acomplish a mission just as well as a Ultramarine they just do it their own way and without being limited by an ancient book. And if by inflexible you mean they don't bow down to what outside forces tell them to do (like any chapter of Space Marines who are only serviant to The Emperor) then yes you are right.

As Space Marines they are just as intelligent as Ultramarines, Black Templars or Blood Angels they just choose to use their intelligence in a differant way which may seem "dumb" or "barbaric" to someone who dosen't understand the culture. They also aren't limited to the strict military conduct enforced by other chapters (which by the way Marneus Calgar is fond of wine made on Ultramar) which makes many see them as unprofessional. I guess the best way to end this is that I highly HIGHLY doubt a chapter that has survived for 10,000 years (and is also my favorite+the army that got me into wargaming) is made up of "dumb" soldiers.

Though I'm pretty much just reitterating some of what has already been said I find it important to set the record straight as I find this question to frankly be "dumb" . Also just to clarify the Space Wolves actually can get drunk, there is a root that they use in their ale which bypasses the functions of their Oolitic Kidney and Peomnor organs which filter out toxins. That dosen't mean that the organs don't work against everything else though, it also dosen't mean that the Space Wolves spend every waking moment (and since Space Marines have the Catalepsean Node this can be alot of minutes) drinking.

Space Wolves are not stupid, far from it actually; they are intelligent but native Fenrisian superstition gives them their traditions and culture. Which people mistake for backwardsness.
BTW Space Wolves don't like jump packs becasue they prefer to keep their feet on the ground just like russ did.

I would give a longer answer but I am too tired....

Saw a couple points here that I wanted to address.

Da Butcha wrote:
I've never heard of Space Wolves eschewing jump packs for being "new equipment". I've read that they view them as undignified, and better suited to impetuous Blood Claws. I've also read that they prefer to fight "traditionally". Preferring to do something traditionally doesn't mean that you are unaware, or afraid of, or opposed to new technology. Someone can choose to play a miniatures game rather than choosing to play a video game without being curmudgeonly, right?

Let's bear in mind that just because something's traditional doesn't mean it's not stupid. See: the running of the bulls in Pamplona.

Da Butcha wrote:Failing to reinforce understrength squads could also be viewed as a long term strategy for building unit cohesion. If a unit serves together for a long time, they will presumably develop a high level of loyalty and cooperation, which could easily be undermined by rotating members out of the unit, or introducing unfamiliar new members to the unit. Notice how Space Wolves spring forward to defend their squad-mates aggressively, while other Chapters do not? Notice how Long Fangs are capable of splitting the fire of the unit, while other Devastator units are not? This is a tactical decision, not tying your hands behind your back.

The codex specifically states that LFs split fire because they're old enough to be trusted to individually target, not because they're more cohesive than Devastators.

Da Butcha wrote:Their history is kept in oral tradition. Notice how this has stymied the Inquisitors who have sought to persecute the Space Wolves for genetic deviancy, heresy, or other violations of Imperial/Ecclesiarchal expectations? Note that the Space Wolves have an uninterrupted history from their founding, through their reunion with their Primarch, to the present day? Note that numerous other Chapters have no idea of their Primarch, or have entire sections of their history expunged, sometimes through the interference of the Inquisition (Storm Wardens)? See how well it works out to have written records?

Yet the Blood Angels have as much, if not more, to be worried about in terms of the Inquisition finding out bad stuff about them, and seem quite content to write plenty of stuff down. First Founding chapters are generally pretty safe regardless.

Da Butcha wrote:Beer swigging? Given that Astartes are capable of ingesting quite potent toxins with no effect, I can't see how "beer swigging" can be viewed as reducing their efficiency any more than "water swigging".

I think you just pointed out a huge hole in SW "We loves us ale!" fluff.

Da Butcha wrote:What does that make Codex chapters, who are all still following a book written by Rowboat Girlyman (I can spell that more correctly than his real name) thousands of years ago?

The Codex has been updated countless times since Roboute wrote it.

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:
Yeah, no. The Space Wolves don't trust teleportation, their is a differance between fear and trust. The same goes for jet packs, their mind set which comes from their culture is that a warrior should fight with his feet firmly on the ground instead of
launching himself up in the air which makes sense because a basic of combat is to always keep your balance which means one foot on the ground at all times.

So jump packs are unreliable for balance, yet sitting on top of a giant, ferocious wolf isn't?

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:Their pack organisation is simply creating a bonded group of which the strongest will survive. Now if you take a group of men that has trained together, been in a sense "created" together, can predict eachothers every move and then try and replace a lost member of that fraternity with an outsider you're going to have problem. Logan grimnar who is one of the greatest heros of the Imperium is the last surviving member of his original pack and I highly doubt it has hindered his combat effectivness.

They're soldiers, not space BFFs. Would you rather have ten guys who can fight just as effectively with anyone else in their chapter, or two guys who know what kind of deodorant each other wear? If what you say is true, we better tell SEAL platoons, Special Forces ODAs, etc., to stop reinforcing right now, 'cause getting whittled down to three or four dudes is preferable to operating at full strength.

Lord of battles wrote:Space Wolves are not stupid, far from it actually; they are intelligent but native Fenrisian superstition gives them their traditions and culture. Which people mistake for backwardsness.
BTW Space Wolves don't like jump packs becasue they prefer to keep their feet on the ground just like russ did.

I would give a longer answer but I am too tired....

Same with teleportation, Russ didn't trust it and if it wasn't good enough for Russ, then it isn't good enough for the rest of the Space Wolves.