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Da Butcha wrote:Beer swigging? Given that Astartes are capable of ingesting quite potent toxins with no effect, I can't see how "beer swigging" can be viewed as reducing their efficiency any more than "water swigging".

I think you just pointed out a huge hole in SW "We loves us ale!" fluff.

The Space Wolves novels describe a certain root or herb native to Fenris that is, fortunately, able to shut the Wolves' increased resistance to drugs down for a limited period of time. They mix it into their beer and ale all the time so they can get drunk. Getting drunk is an important part of staying sane in a lifetime of eternal war, according to Ragnar. Maybe he's onto something? Again, Space Wolves very rarely turn to Chaos, certainly less often than other chapters...

Edit: Damn, Imbad Ironskull ninja's me be a few posts.

This probaly was already said, but im to lazy to read it all, so most space marine chapters are very set in there ways, in fact theres a whole book dedicated to what space marines should being doing. so i mean every chapter has its ideas, and the codex never says they're dumb, they are as smart and as good as any other chapter, they just have more fun

Da Butcha wrote:
I've never heard of Space Wolves eschewing jump packs for being "new equipment". I've read that they view them as undignified, and better suited to impetuous Blood Claws. I've also read that they prefer to fight "traditionally". Preferring to do something traditionally doesn't mean that you are unaware, or afraid of, or opposed to new technology. Someone can choose to play a miniatures game rather than choosing to play a video game without being curmudgeonly, right?

Let's bear in mind that just because something's traditional doesn't mean it's not stupid. See: the running of the bulls in Pamplona.

Let's also bear in mind that what may be stupid to one person dosen't make it stupid. Opinions are not absolute.

Da Butcha wrote:Failing to reinforce understrength squads could also be viewed as a long term strategy for building unit cohesion. If a unit serves together for a long time, they will presumably develop a high level of loyalty and cooperation, which could easily be undermined by rotating members out of the unit, or introducing unfamiliar new members to the unit. Notice how Space Wolves spring forward to defend their squad-mates aggressively, while other Chapters do not? Notice how Long Fangs are capable of splitting the fire of the unit, while other Devastator units are not? This is a tactical decision, not tying your hands behind your back.

The codex specifically states that LFs split fire because they're old enough to be trusted to individually target, not because they're more cohesive than Devastators.

"Fire Control: The Leaders of Long Fang packs have trained and fought with the other members of his pack for decades or even centuries of active service. This allows him to direct his squads firepower quickly and efficiently."

Where exactly does it "specificly" state that LFs split fire because they're old enough to be trusted with individual targets? Forgive me but unless my ability to read is greatly diminished then I thought this direct quote from the codex says that it is the squads cohesivness that allows them to fire at seperate targets.

Da Butcha wrote:What does that make Codex chapters, who are all still following a book written by Rowboat Girlyman (I can spell that more correctly than his real name) thousands of years ago?

The Codex has been updated countless times since Roboute wrote it.

Yes and despite those updates the Space Wolves (and other chapters) don't follow its instructions and are still counted amongst the greatest fighting forces in the Imperium.

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:
Yeah, no. The Space Wolves don't trust teleportation, their is a differance between fear and trust. The same goes for jet packs, their mind set which comes from their culture is that a warrior should fight with his feet firmly on the ground instead of
launching himself up in the air which makes sense because a basic of combat is to always keep your balance which means one foot on the ground at all times.

So jump packs are unreliable for balance, yet sitting on top of a giant, ferocious wolf isn't?

Lets see, being launched up into the air with the likelyhood of no cover and very little timely course correction vs riding a creature that is stable on it's feet, able to change course rapidly and still make use of cover. Give me the wolf.

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:Their pack organisation is simply creating a bonded group of which the strongest will survive. Now if you take a group of men that has trained together, been in a sense "created" together, can predict eachothers every move and then try and replace a lost member of that fraternity with an outsider you're going to have problem. Logan grimnar who is one of the greatest heros of the Imperium is the last surviving member of his original pack and I highly doubt it has hindered his combat effectivness.

They're soldiers, not space BFFs. Would you rather have ten guys who can fight just as effectively with anyone else in their chapter, or two guys who know what kind of deodorant each other wear? If what you say is true, we better tell SEAL platoons, Special Forces ODAs, etc., to stop reinforcing right now, 'cause getting whittled down to three or four dudes is preferable to operating at full strength.

I never said that they sat around braiding eachothers hair. I also never said anything about them not being able to fight effectivly with the rest of the chapter but it is known that multiple chapters have rivalries and enemies within themselves. Wether you know it or not soldiers who fight together do develop very strong bonds, this can range from soldiers of a platoon or company to a small elite squad. Trying to compare Space Wolves which are a ficticous force to real world organizations is like trying to say lifting an object using the force and lifting one using a forklift is the same thing and IMHO dosen't help validate your argument. You may not understand it and it may not be what you would do if you where in command but there is a point to not reinforcing squads that are below optimal strength. Especially when those squads are made up of super human vikings with enhanced senses

So jump packs are unreliable for balance, yet sitting on top of a giant, ferocious wolf isn't?

This is not a typical SW unit though
I get the impression from what has been said that the balance issue is secondary to the groundedness of combat.
A cavalry unit is still on Terra Firma.



please let us not get sidetracked by the Thunderwolf chestnut

I heard Dante is buddies with Necrons
On Topic: Why does this feel like someone is picking on space wolves to vent some Fenris hate?
I may have a slightly biased opinion but I don't believe SW are in anyway "dumb". I was sure I read something in the codex about the SW being able to sober up almost instantly when they needed to, also WGPLs seem to me to be a lot of small squads that survived by working together and functioning as smaller more efficient units and now have the option of leading almost all the different SW squads because of their battlefield acumen.

They're soldiers, not space BFFs. Would you rather have ten guys who can fight just as effectively with anyone else in their chapter, or two guys who know what kind of deodorant each other wear? If what you say is true, we better tell SEAL platoons, Special Forces ODAs, etc., to stop reinforcing right now, 'cause getting whittled down to three or four dudes is preferable to operating at full strength.

I never said that they sat around braiding eachothers hair. I also never said anything about them not being able to fight effectivly with the rest of the chapter but it is known that multiple chapters have rivalries and enemies within themselves. Wether you know it or not soldiers who fight together do develop very strong bonds, this can range from soldiers of a platoon or company to a small elite squad. Trying to compare Space Wolves which are a ficticous force to real world organizations is like trying to say lifting an object using the force and lifting one using a forklift is the same thing and IMHO dosen't help validate your argument. You may not understand it and it may not be what you would do if you where in command but there is a point to not reinforcing squads that are below optimal strength. Especially when those squads are made up of super human vikings with enhanced senses

What's more, is due to the unique properties of the Canis Helix, the additional level of cohesion in Space Wolf packs is a real, tangible thing. Had the OP bothered to read any of the Space Wolf novels before starting this thread, he'd realize that pack members have a near telepathic bond with each other, and can communicate via smell and subconscious body language faster than any other chapter can communicate via vox-bead.

In a White Dwarf article from about ten years back, I recall a visiting Inquisitor who writes that he has received the impression that Logan Grimnar merely appears to be a scruffy barbarian. If anything of interest, it is suspiciously deliberate.

There are plenty of 'naughty' things that the Space Wolves have been doing (debasing the Crux Terminatus and standard Rosarius with wolf skulls and the like), but there is no such evidence in the chapter archives. In fact, there is practically nothing. An oral tradition of storytelling means that only the great stories are told.

Everyone has secrets to keep in the Imperium, and the 'Wolves are sensible about it. They could tell great tales about the lost companies that chose not to return to Fenris, instead following the path of their Primarch and driving themselves, embodied as weapons, into the heart of oblivion. This could be seen as heresy, and they know that there are much greater enemies than the zealous, misguided fools that represent much of the human empire.

Blood Claws, still coming to terms with their physical and psychological changes, are like adolescents - headstrong, confident, and perhaps easily goaded... but they are not underestimable. They're the equivalent of codex scouts, but allowed free expression in battle, and better able to develop into the gifted warriors that they showed promise to be. People are not chosen at random to become Space Marines - they must possess certain qualities.

Grey Hunters have learned to operate with their brothers, and know their place a little better. With this respect for their brethren, they can develop and utilise their unique abilities and heightened senses to far greater effect on the battlefield - what they lack in animal savagery they make up for in sensibility and careful planning.

To say that the Space Wolves take nothing from the Codex Astartes is misguiding. They are Adeptus Astartes nevertheless, and they define what they are - not a deteriorating manuscript written by a fallible man. To be inflexible is to shatter under great enough pressure. To depend on military structure is to be thought of as a worthless tool with a singly defined purpose.

Above all else, Space Wolves can talk. They are not dumb.

Arctik_Firangi wrote:

Same with Russ, he uses the barbaric and feral appearance to his advantage. In a Thousand Sons it's said that this is all pretty much for show where in fact Russ is very intelligent.

Fear is one of the greatest tools in war.

If the sons of Russ follow their father then I guess it would be true of them too. Maybe not all of them mind

I can imagine even Stephen Hawkins can be quite vicious after a few Stellas

Ummmmmm.....
Yes is all can say i'm afraid.

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:
Let's also bear in mind that what may be stupid to one person dosen't make it stupid. Opinions are not absolute.

No, but stupidity is. There are plenty of things out there that we can all agree are stupid - drunk driving, Russian roulette, Thunderwolf Cavalry...

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:
Yes and despite those updates the Space Wolves (and other chapters) don't follow its instructions and are still counted amongst the greatest fighting forces in the Imperium.

Ah, but see, much as I hate the Ultramarine fanwank of the vanilla Codex, we do have fluff statements making it clear who the greatest among Space Marine chapters is - and it ain't the Wolves. It's the epitome of a codex chapter, the Smurfs. It's written. It's published. It's canon.

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:I never said that they sat around braiding eachothers hair. I also never said anything about them not being able to fight effectivly with the rest of the chapter but it is known that multiple chapters have rivalries and enemies within themselves. Wether you know it or not soldiers who fight together do develop very strong bonds, this can range from soldiers of a platoon or company to a small elite squad. Trying to compare Space Wolves which are a ficticous force to real world organizations is like trying to say lifting an object using the force and lifting one using a forklift is the same thing and IMHO dosen't help validate your argument. You may not understand it and it may not be what you would do if you where in command but there is a point to not reinforcing squads that are below optimal strength. Especially when those squads are made up of super human vikings with enhanced senses

Oh, I'm aware that soldiers who fight together develop strong bonds. I'm also aware that they don't stay with the same unit their entire lives, and that said unit receives reinforcements when it takes losses, because doing otherwise is a fundamentally stupid way of doing things. Which is why no one - other chapters included - does it. It's a waste of valuable resources in order to be more wolfy.

Oh, I'm aware that soldiers who fight together develop strong bonds. I'm also aware that they don't stay with the same unit their entire lives, and that said unit receives reinforcements when it takes losses, because doing otherwise is a fundamentally stupid way of doing things. Which is why no one - other chapters included - does it. It's a waste of valuable resources in order to be more wolfy.

But Space Wolves are not soldiers. They are super soldiers. Really, it seems your argument is based on "What works for today's armies must be the optimum for everyone else, too!". As Commander Endova stated, the Canis Helix drastically changes they way Space Wolves interact with each other. They can communicate and share information on the basis of body language and smell. Sounds superior to shouting to me, being faster, quieter and probably less prone to misunderstandings (on the level the Wolves do it).

Since they are so different from normal men in several regards, saying they're dumb because they don't do it like normal men seems to be as inflexible as you say they Space Wolves are. Who knows how SEAL team members would operate if they had the heightened senses of a Space Wolf? Maybe they would be better, too, if left in original units bonded over time. That's all subject of speculation - but what we KNOW is, that the Wolves do it this way for about 10,000 years and guess what, they're still there. That's proof that their way of handling their pack mentality is probably not the wrong choice for them.

Witzkatz wrote:
But Space Wolves are not soldiers. They are super soldiers.

Unlike all the other Space Marine chapters who DO in fact reinforce understrength squads? The whole, "But they're super soldiers!" argument falls apart when it's only one out of a thousand groups of said super soldiers that don't do it.

Really, it seems your argument is based on "What works for today's armies must be the optimum for everyone else, too!". As Commander Endova stated, the Canis Helix drastically changes they way Space Wolves interact with each other. They can communicate and share information on the basis of body language and smell. Sounds superior to shouting to me, being faster, quieter and probably less prone to misunderstandings (on the level the Wolves do it).

So trying to see body language and trying to smell through a helmet's filter is more effective than using the built-in voxcaster during a firefight? Really?

It's also worth noting that actual wolves are quite capable of changing packs.

None of which is evidence of stupidity.

Am I correct in thinking that it is not just the body that is enhanced but the mind as well in the deep frying Marinification process?

This can go two ways. That SW let us not forget are still SM's and therefore require intelligence.
SW's are able to operate their thinking beyond the indoctrination process, which again suggests intelligence rather than stupidity.

Hurr I'm a Space Wolf I wanna sniff your bum.

In all seriousness no. Just because the Space Wolves do things differently doesn't make them dumb.

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:
Let's also bear in mind that what may be stupid to one person dosen't make it stupid. Opinions are not absolute.

No, but stupidity is. There are plenty of things out there that we can all agree are stupid - drunk driving, Russian roulette, Thunderwolf Cavalry...

Drunken driving and Russian roulette have nothing to do with the Space Wolves and as far as Thunderwold Cavalry goes that is once again YOUR opinion which you are entitled to but it IS NOT an absolution

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:
Yes and despite those updates the Space Wolves (and other chapters) don't follow its instructions and are still counted amongst the greatest fighting forces in the Imperium.

Ah, but see, much as I hate the Ultramarine fanwank of the vanilla Codex, we do have fluff statements making it clear who the greatest among Space Marine chapters is - and it ain't the Wolves. It's the epitome of a codex chapter, the Smurfs. It's written. It's published. It's canon.

Considering this isn't a discussion about which chapter is greatest I see no way that this is significant to the discussion. The fact is that the Space Wolves DO NOT follow the teachings of the Codex Astartes and they are still amongst the greatest warriors in the galaxy who have fought for 10,000 years and longer for humanity, they have also fought in more conflicts then any other chapter. That to is cannon.

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:I never said that they sat around braiding eachothers hair. I also never said anything about them not being able to fight effectivly with the rest of the chapter but it is known that multiple chapters have rivalries and enemies within themselves. Wether you know it or not soldiers who fight together do develop very strong bonds, this can range from soldiers of a platoon or company to a small elite squad. Trying to compare Space Wolves which are a ficticous force to real world organizations is like trying to say lifting an object using the force and lifting one using a forklift is the same thing and IMHO dosen't help validate your argument. You may not understand it and it may not be what you would do if you where in command but there is a point to not reinforcing squads that are below optimal strength. Especially when those squads are made up of super human vikings with enhanced senses

Oh, I'm aware that soldiers who fight together develop strong bonds. I'm also aware that they don't stay with the same unit their entire lives, and that said unit receives reinforcements when it takes losses, because doing otherwise is a fundamentally stupid way of doing things. Which is why no one - other chapters included - does it. It's a waste of valuable resources in order to be more wolfy.

Again YOUR opinion is not an absolution and you may need to work that belief out with some professional help. What you call a waste of valuable recources has created some of the greatest heros of the Imperium and has been the effective fighting method of the chapter for 10,000 years. Who are you to argue with that? especially in a discussion concerning the intelligence of an entire Space Marine chapter which respectfully to the OP should never have been brought up because anyone who knows anything about any of the chapters knows that ALL Space Marines are highly intelligent despite what their appearance may suggest.

Regardless of organization, tradition and cultural givings the OPs question is "are the Space Wolves dumb". The answer is most definitivly NO and nothing that you can argue against that has any bearing in that so far it has been nothing but your opinion and your own misgivings about the chapter.

As for the comment made by someone about "debasing" items such as the Crux Terminatus and Crozius Arcanum the Codex Astartes encourages chapters to display their own heraldry and icons which is why chapters such as the Ultramarines, Blood Angels and Black Templers (to name a few) also alter the above items with the Ultramarines icon, a blood drop and a templar cross respectfully. As it is probably one of the only things used be the Space Wolves that is encouraged in the Codex Astartes it can hardly be seen as debasment.

It just sounds like somebody lost a game to some space wolves recently...

Have any of you ever observed a wolf pack in the wild? I live in Alaska, and make frequent trips to Denali National Park (where, according to the National Park Service, there are "Between 12 and 18 wolf packs roam(ing) Denali in territories that range from 200 to 800 square miles").

Wolves hunt in a very peculiar way. They have always hunted with each other, for as long as they've been hunting. This creates a very unique bond, and gives them an almost preternatural sense of communication. They can adjust their tactics with little more than a glance. For being "dumb" (meaning unable to speak) animals, they work in perfect unity with each other. It is the most curious thing to watch.

When a new pack member is introduced, it often only leads to problems. The wolves of the original pack will outright ignore the newcomer at best, attack it on sight at worst. It can be a distraction that means the failure of a hunt.


Space Wolves choose to not reinforce units for a specific reason. They realize the bond that is formed by a unit that works together exclusively, and use it to garner an advantageous battlefield doctrine of fraternal protection (fraternal not as in a college house of idiots, but as in brotherly or connected through a strong familial bond).

Space wolves are not any stupider than a person who plays games with little soldiers. So tell me, do you use an I-phone app to roll your dice? Surely its better, because its new technology! Do you carry a calculator everywhere to do calculations for you? Not using technology just simply because you CAN is not a weakness.

At any rate, I believe others made their cases better than I did, but I had to point out that somebody must have lost their game of 40k to a SW player recently!

Previous comments removed because I realize that was kind of rude.

Moral of the story, space wolves seem a little bit like... this:

http://www.amazon.com/Mountain-Three-Short-Sleeve-Medium/dp/B000NZW3J8/ref=sr_1_1?s=gateway&ie=UTF8&qid=1285865564&sr=8-1

On what do you base these conclusions Deep Biege?

what is this "tactics" and "discipline" you speak of ?
most of my problem can be solved by attacking it until it DIES

in complicated diplomacy you may not want to ask a space marine at all, they will scream HERESY faster than anyone except the inquisition

hence space marine are there when you want whatever disturbance GONE

they don't need to be book smart, if they know how to fight either based on practice, or field experience. I say they are smart enough

So Space Wolves aren't dumb, they are a kitsch t-shirt
(just ordered 3)

Rascon wrote:They're always described as "cunning" rather than intelligent; they fear teleportation, and they're said to not be overly fond of embracing "new" equipment and tactics - like, you know, jump packs. Their "pack" system is rather stupid, when you think about it; failing to reinforce understrength squads is just begging for all the remaining members to get shot up as their combat effectiveness decreases. Their history is kept in oral tradition rather than, say, written down - I suspect in large part because they can't read.

Basically, they come off as beer-swigging bikers and frat boys, which isn't exactly what you associate with military precision. Not only that, but they're intractable, set in their ways, curmudgeonly, even, and hardly flexible. So, beer-swigging bikers...crossed with your crotchety grandparents. Neither one of which would I turn to if I wanted a complex problem solved.

They aren't simpletons but have very clannish/unorthodox ways and superstitions. They're not soldiers either. They are warriors. Two very different things.

Space Wolves are, to a greater or lesser degree, influenced by the Norse cultures that sprung up in the Viking Age. As a result, people tend to stereotype them as dumb, just as they would a Viking, but the fact is that it's not true. The three key Viking virtues were, as I remember them, bravery strenght and cunning, and indeed there are many sagas in which the heroes won through with cleverness and trickery as opposed to brute strength.
Just because the Wolves don't make use of certain technologies such as Teleporting and have a strong tribal element to them doesn't make them dumb.


EDIT: also, the Space Wolves can read. They have a Runic alphabet which they use to mark squads and vehicles as well as write down some of the sagas they tell.

Seaward: Stop trolling (or playing dumb yourself, can't really tell which of the two you're really thinkin' yourself up to).

The OPs question have truly been answered, NO Space Wolves are not dumb, at least not dumber than any other marine from any other chapter.


The OPs example regarding tech can def. not be applied either; does a shooty-heavy fielded DA army make it more intelligent than that of a CC heavy BA army? Nope.

Müller wrote:Seaward: Stop trolling (or playing dumb yourself, can't really tell which of the two you're really thinkin' yourself up to).

Pointing out that logistical stupidity is...well, logistical stupidity is hardly trolling. Honestly, I find the guys getting so worked up over the suggestion that leaving one lone pack survivor all by himself to die is an awfully dumb idea to be far more worthwhile for comedy than actual trolling.

Seaward wrote:

Müller wrote:Seaward: Stop trolling (or playing dumb yourself, can't really tell which of the two you're really thinkin' yourself up to).

Pointing out that logistical stupidity is...well, logistical stupidity is hardly trolling. Honestly, I find the guys getting so worked up over the suggestion that leaving one lone pack survivor all by himself to die is an awfully dumb idea to be far more worthwhile for comedy than actual trolling.

By that logic DA should tell the entire chapter about the fallen and the lion and luther so they have more marines to capture fallen instead of just a part of their chapter.

purplefood wrote:

Seaward wrote:

Müller wrote:Seaward: Stop trolling (or playing dumb yourself, can't really tell which of the two you're really thinkin' yourself up to).

Pointing out that logistical stupidity is...well, logistical stupidity is hardly trolling. Honestly, I find the guys getting so worked up over the suggestion that leaving one lone pack survivor all by himself to die is an awfully dumb idea to be far more worthwhile for comedy than actual trolling.

By that logic DA should tell the entire chapter about the fallen and the lion and luther so they have more marines to capture fallen instead of just a part of their chapter.

That would probably be a slightly more efficient way to try and accomplish a hopeless task, yes.

Seaward wrote:

purplefood wrote:

Seaward wrote:

Müller wrote:Seaward: Stop trolling (or playing dumb yourself, can't really tell which of the two you're really thinkin' yourself up to).

Pointing out that logistical stupidity is...well, logistical stupidity is hardly trolling. Honestly, I find the guys getting so worked up over the suggestion that leaving one lone pack survivor all by himself to die is an awfully dumb idea to be far more worthwhile for comedy than actual trolling.

By that logic DA should tell the entire chapter about the fallen and the lion and luther so they have more marines to capture fallen instead of just a part of their chapter.

That would probably be a slightly more efficient way to try and accomplish a hopeless task, yes.

I was hoping you would say that

You know a thread is doomed when the 4x multiquotes appear

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:You know a thread is doomed when the 4x multiquotes appear

'Tis true...

On the subject of them leaving lone survivors... at this point they are usually pulled from line duty, so yeah if they left the survivor on the line then they would be stupid... but they don't.

The survivor become distraught after rialising he is the last of his pack and al his mates are dead, this causes him to become a lone wolf, Although after he kills a monster or massive horde of whatever, if he survives he will almost always become one of his great company's wolf guard because wolf lords love those kinds of heroism (and the wolves love a good story, and you know it will be a good one)