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@Necrongod

I would have to agree and disagree with you on that statement. I would agree that from the Thousand Son's perspective the Space Wolves were simply released upon them. From the outside there wasn't much consideration done by the Wolves when it came to bring Magnus to justice.

However, I believe that more of the story has to be told and I would imagine that there is much more to the Space Wolves motives in assaulting Prospero. I seem to remember the next book being "The Thousand Sons" from the Space Wolf perspective, I'm not sure if that is true though. I would agree that Russ seemed overly obedient when it came to carrying out the order to bring Magnus down, but in the Space Wolves fluff, there are countless suggestions that Russ himself has foreseen events to take place and that he intended for certain things to transpire (IE: the losing of the Spear of Russ, which sends Ragnar on a zealous quest to get it back, which ultimately foils an attempt by Magnus the Red to escape the warp. Also before he took his fleet into the Eye of Terror, he said that he would return when his chapter would need him again, adding to the evidence that he had some sort of foresight; whether this is ever fleshed out but GW writers is yet to be seen though.)

I think that Russ understood the implications of what was unfolding between he and his brothers and made his decision, and as previously mentioned, Space Wolves often use the guise of brutish behavior and single-minded attitude to their advantage when it comes to diplomacy and hiding their chapter's motives. IIRC there is a moment in "The Thousand Sons" where Ahiraman has a suspicion where that is the case. Ragnar also uses this tactic to better evaluate situations during his time with the Wolfblades in books 3-6 in the Space Wolves series.

I will be the first person to admit that Magnus got screwed by the Space Wolves, and that the Space Wolves were certainly too rash when it came to the fury they unleashed on Prospero, but I would also argue that Magnus was foolish in how he sought the power of the warp. How many people had to tell him in that book? His father, Himself, his most trusted captains. And yet he stubbornly (and almost unwittingly) plays the part of a pawn under the control of the life-forces in the warp. His actions after the Trail of Magnus left the Emperor with no other options, to have Russ take Magnus down, and his ceremony to try and intervene the corruption of Horus and attempt to warn the Emperor got him in further trouble.

I would argue that "Chaos" are the only really "intelligent" beings in the 40k universe. They have there motives, and play others against themselves so that their motives are fulfilled. Don't get me wrong, I am a HUGE Space Wolves fan, but seeing Magnus slowly slide into his fate so obliviously mad me really feel for his chapter. I still cant believe that they went to Chaos, after all his talk of enlightenment and truth. I still cant make the link between the end of "Sons" and the rules of 40k. But I would argue that if Russ was simply ignorant and dumb as a rock, I think that his brother Magnus would fit under that label too.

(edited for spelling)

Rascon wrote:

Again, where I play, units are called what they're actually called so there's no confusion. One guy runs a Blood Angels successor, and uses Mephiston. In his chapter fluff, is it actually Mephiston? No. But it's referred to as Mephiston by everyone involved when a game's going, including the guy himself. You can tell me that your Grey Hunters are actually Black Vipers; they behave like Grey Hunters and use Grey Hunter rules, so I'll be calling them Grey Hunters, because I actually know what Grey Hunters are, as opposed to Black Vipers.

None of this has anything to do with whether or not Space Wolves are intelligent, though, so I'm not sure why it's being discussed.

This is close to a double post but.

I'm not going to get offended or angry that you think that my toy soldiers are dumb, but the above post makes absolutely no sense. If you're going to run a successor chapter or a "counts as" army at all of COURSE something like this will happen. You obviously have two choices.

Quit playing with 's who can't remember what something is despite the name and be creative.

or

Continue to only play the armies as is in the codex and quit crying about how "I just don't want to make them something else because if I'm gonna call them that then they might as well be that"

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:
Ok now I know that you don't know anything about Space Marines or Space Wolves and that you probably didn't even bother to read what has been said by anyone above. So how about you tell me what you believe it takes for the Space Wolves to be considered intelligent? what do they have to compose classical music? Create art on the scale of Van Gogh? write poetry? what?

I know quite a bit about them, actually. Like, for instance, that they possess feral cunning.

Alot of Americans like Sarah Palin because they think she is a MILF (please excuse my use of that word). And as I have said before to numerous people those who compare the happenings of a fictional universe to the real world really don't understand the point of the game or the stories behind it. If you really think that the leader of one of the oldest, most respected and most experienced chapters in the 40k universe is not intelligent in both matters of war as well as other areas then i say you are as unintelligent as you say the Space Wolves are.

You missed the point entirely. Popularity does not equal intelligence. You said, and I quote: "And what do you think that Logan Grimnar is one of the most adored figures within the Imperium because of his pearly white smile?" The implication being that he HAS to be intelligent because he's popular. I can think of plenty of popular people who aren't smart.

Umm actually no I don't have a difficult time proving that considering their are multiple pages containing posts which do just that located above this post. Maybe you have trouble understanding the big words that where used or maybe your so set in your idea of Space Wolves being stupid savages to have even read them. After reading your responses I'm inclined to think the former.

There aren't, actually. There are multiple pages of people making assertions with no corroborating evidence.

Really? that's why in every counts as army I've ever made which is quiet a few considering I've played for 10 years and own almost every army for both 40k and Fantasy I have called counts as units by their name I have given them and in 4 differant states no one has ever had a problem with it. NOT ONCE. If they wanted to know what the unit was (if they coulden't tell already) they simply had to ask. Now unlike you most players are mature enough to be able to accept the fact that it is still the same unit the player has just chosen to represent them differantly and with a differant name which is completly allowed as that is the wolhe point of being able to create your own army.

So instead of coming on here and talking as if you know anything about....well anything how about you quit your bitching that 40k dosen't fit what you think it should. Shut the hell up about Space Wolves being unintelligent especially when it has been shown repeatidly that they are in fact highly intelligent even though you obviously don't have the capacity to understand the fluff proven points that have been given. Also just for referance your idea of intelligence (which I'm assuming is at crayon level) does not mean that someone or something who does not reach those expectations is not intelligent. I will probably recieve a warning or something for this but this is one time I do not care. I am done with this ignorant, ill concieved, unintelligent, close minded discussion which never should have been made in the first place. You asked if Space Wolves are dumb, the answer is no and that answer relates to any deffinition of the word.

Honestly, if you're getting this upset, maybe it's time to take a step back. If you've really been playing for ten years, that suggests you're an adult, and I'm not sure that hyperventilating over a tabletop war game's hilariously trite background fluff is really what you want to be doing.


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TheBlackVanguard wrote:
This is close to a double post but.

I'm not going to get offended or angry that you think that my toy soldiers are dumb, but the above post makes absolutely no sense. If you're going to run a successor chapter or a "counts as" army at all of COURSE something like this will happen. You obviously have two choices.

Quit playing with 's who can't remember what something is despite the name and be creative.

Why? I'm actually right there with them on this. Everyone thinks their own fluff/fan fiction is the GREATEST EVAR, but it's rather boorish to inflict it on other people regularly, don't you think?

Good grief is this still going?

They are called Space Wolves therefore they must be wolves and not human seems to be the reasoning behind the thread title.
Ergo Salamanders are reptilian and only have small brains, Grey Knights are grey and thus old fogies etc

Why ask a question if not open to other answers or was the title question rhetorical, in which case is only likely to cause offence. (even if it is slightlng the intelligence of a fictional race.)

The whole premise, in any case, is fallacious and pointless.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Good grief is this still going?

They are called Space Wolves therefore they must be wolves and not human seems to be the reasoning behind the thread title.
Ergo Salamanders are reptilian and only have small brains, Grey Knights are grey and thus old fogies etc

Why ask a question if not open to other answers or was the title question rhetorical, in which case is only likely to cause offence. (even if it is slightlng the intelligence of a fictional race.)

The whole premise, in any case, is fallacious and pointless.

Salamanders, to the best of my knowledge, have nothing like the Canis Helix.

I'm open to other answers, but not when said answers are little more than "NO U!" Space Wolves become more feral, not less, after Canis Helix implantation; we've had people claiming they have an easier time communicating by scent and body language than by speaking over the communication links in their helmets. It's not that they're called Space Wolves, it's that they act like wolves who, I've pointed out several times now I think, are quite cunning, but not what you could call intelligent. Everyone seems content to skip right over these points and instead get butthurt that the question was even asked, which is troubling for multiple reasons. They're fictional, guys. Calm down.

Rascon wrote:They're fictional, guys. Calm down.

You've openly stated yourself that the reason you've asked this question was because you wanted to base an army of your own creation around either the SW or BA codex. As per the quote above, seeing as how SW's, BA's and your own army would all be fiction, surely it doesn't matter whether or not the foundation army is intelligent because... tadaaa... they're all works of fiction! If you lack the level of maturity to field units as something else without having the compulsion to refer to them as their basis unit then perhaps you ought to consider playing a different game.

As has been mentioned, you seem very oblivious to the sensical answers that have been given you that outright display arguments and facts that prove the intelligence of SW's.

Definition of intelligence: "Intelligence is an umbrella term describing a property of the mind comprehending related abilities, such as the capacities for abstract thought, reasoning, planning and problem solving, the use of language, and to learn."

All of which the Space Wolves display on a daily basis. Perhaps if you wanted to know if they had a genius level intellect then you should have phrased your question as such. If you can't place forward an intelligent argument to any of this then surely all we can assume is that you're a troll and should thus be ignored?

Gijouhei wrote:

Rascon wrote:They're fictional, guys. Calm down.

You've openly stated yourself that the reason you've asked this question was because you wanted to base an army of your own creation around either the SW or BA codex.

No, I didn't. I said that I'd wanted to go with a DIY successor chapter, but that I liked the playstyle of the SW codex, and if I was going to use it, it'd make the most sense to actually go with Space Wolves rather than simply changing "wolf" to "hamster" and calling it original.

As has been mentioned, you seem very oblivious to the sensical answers that have been given you that outright display arguments and facts that prove the intelligence of SW's.

You stalwart defenders of the Space Wolves' honor keep saying this, yet seem unable to point me to any of these answers when I ask. Please provide the facts you speak of.

Definition of intelligence: "Intelligence is an umbrella term describing a property of the mind comprehending related abilities, such as the capacities for abstract thought, reasoning, planning and problem solving, the use of language, and to learn."

All of which the Space Wolves display on a daily basis. Perhaps if you wanted to know if they had a genius level intellect then you should have phrased your question as such.

Ah, now we come to the crux of the argument. Do they possess intelligence? By that definition, of course they do, as do all humans. What you and all the others seem to be missing, though, is the argument to be made that they rely on it less than other Space Marines. Why? Because their feral nature is enhanced, not reduced, by the Canis Helix and chapter culture. I haven't seen anyone even attempt to dispute that they are, in fact, far more feral than the average Space Marine. I've seen the opposite, in fact; people have talked up their communication by scent and body language, their pack mentality, and all the rest of it as though they weren't aware that such is animal behavior.

Someone else pointed out that there is no logic in letting pack numbers dwindle down to nothing, and the response received was that integrating packs simply wouldn't work because "real wolf packs don't." Aside from the fact that that's not true, that's not the triumph of intelligent reasoning, that's the triumph of animal instinct. Much of their chapter seems to be based on the latter rather than the former.

If you can't place forward an intelligent argument to any of this then surely all we can assume is that you're a troll and should thus be ignored?

You can assume what you like, of course, though I assure you that assuming I'm a troll is a far more kind assumption than the one I make about guys with Space Wolf tags under their names becoming genuinely enraged in this thread.

They beat The Thousand Sons on their own planet. Are you calling them dumb too...because i believe they were one of the smarter legions and they were beaten from pretty much every angle.

And Rascon...i would like a list of all the SW sources that you have read that could back up some of the stuff you are saying please.

Cunning: showing or made with ingenuity.


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Ah, now we come to the crux of the argument. Do they possess intelligence? By that definition, of course they do, as do all humans. What you and all the others seem to be missing, though, is the argument to be made that they rely on it less than other Space Marines. Why? Because their feral nature is enhanced, not reduced, by the Canis Helix and chapter culture. I haven't seen anyone even attempt to dispute that they are, in fact, far more feral than the average Space Marine. I've seen the opposite, in fact; people have talked up their communication by scent and body language, their pack mentality, and all the rest of it as though they weren't aware that such is animal behavior.

Someone else pointed out that there is no logic in letting pack numbers dwindle down to nothing, and the response received was that integrating packs simply wouldn't work because "real wolf packs don't." Aside from the fact that that's not true, that's not the triumph of intelligent reasoning, that's the triumph of animal instinct. Much of their chapter seems to be based on the latter rather than the former.

The original post didn't ask that they use their intelligence less than other chapters.

In the second sentence you answered your own question by the way.

From what I can tell, we have two groups of people that are fiercely divided on the meaning of "smarts" or "intelligent", and there is clearly no persuading one side or the other to see the other person's view.

@Rascon

I don't know what you think this thread is. Its certainly not a thesis paper or a courtroom, and we don't need sourced facts about the intelligence of the Space Wolves. Even if we did, you'd have to provide sources of how the Space Wolves suffer from... what ever affliction you think they have... that causes them to not be considered intelligent. From what I'm getting from your side of the story is that the Space Wolves don't exhibit enough "intelligence" for you to accept them as having wit. In my opinion that's just ignoring some of the arguments that people have posted in this thread. I'll give you the fact that Space Wolves are infused with some sort of instinct that is animalistic in nature, but those instincts aren't going to delete all sense and smarts once a Space Wolf accepts the Canis Helix. Instinct and Intelligence are two things that are complimentary, not substitutional. People did used to believe that once you learned something new, they forgot something old, and that is the impression that I'm getting from your argument.....

If there is a standard of having wit and intelligence, can you provide a benchmark so that the Space Wolves can be rated against someone truly intelligent so that we can all move on?

Facts aren't debatable unless your a troll, opinions are debatable that's why this thread is lasting as long as it is. This thread should have not lasted past page 2.

Erik Wolfbrother wrote:

@Rascon

I don't know what you think this thread is. Its certainly not a thesis paper or a courtroom, and we don't need sourced facts about the intelligence of the Space Wolves.

You do if you want them to be considered facts, rather than simply opinions.

Even if we did, you'd have to provide sources of how the Space Wolves suffer from... what ever affliction you think they have... that causes them to not be considered intelligent. From what I'm getting from your side of the story is that the Space Wolves don't exhibit enough "intelligence" for you to accept them as having wit.

Wit? You mean like humor?

No, I've fully granted several times now that they do in fact have intelligence. The definition of the word itself makes it clear. You're right, though, in that the thread probably should have been titled, "Are Space Wolves as smart as the average Space Marine?"

In my opinion that's just ignoring some of the arguments that people have posted in this thread. I'll give you the fact that Space Wolves are infused with some sort of instinct that is animalistic in nature, but those instincts aren't going to delete all sense and smarts once a Space Wolf accepts the Canis Helix. Instinct and Intelligence are two things that are complimentary, not substitutional. People did used to believe that once you learned something new, they forgot something old, and that is the impression that I'm getting from your argument.....

Then I'm expressing myself badly, as that's not the argument I'm making. Can animal instinct and human logical ability be used in conjunction? I suppose so. But I still think the example mentioned earlier in the thread of Space Wolves refusing to reinforce packs is an example of animal instinct winning out OVER human logic, as there were some fairly weak arguments thrown out in an effort to make it seem like it's a great idea to leave two Long Fangs all by their lonesome just because their buddies died. Wolfy wolftastic wolfinstinct beating out human logic seems to me to be a prevailing theme of Space Wolf culture and tactica.

If there is a standard of having wit and intelligence, can you provide a benchmark so that the Space Wolves can be rated against someone truly intelligent so that we can all move on?

Wish I could. But for the record, I'm not holding a gun to anyone's head and forcing them to continue discussing the topic.


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Thelaugher wrote:They beat The Thousand Sons on their own planet. Are you calling them dumb too...because i believe they were one of the smarter legions and they were beaten from pretty much every angle.

Even Napoleon got beaten now and then.

And Rascon...i would like a list of all the SW sources that you have read that could back up some of the stuff you are saying please.

Sure! The Space Wolves codex. If you've got contradictory fluff, please feel free to provide it, because I'm not going to wade through six books' worth of fanwank looking for it myself.

The reasons they don't reinforce has already been mentioned...saying it dumb and saying their dumb is an opinion, their are plenty of traditions in the world that many of us would deem inefficient. But this is not the case with SW. It is obviously working. And working better than many other chapters. The SW have been around for 10 thousand years and have kept most of their traditions without breaking into successor chapters.

There have been a few solid factual statements in this thread that provide Space Wolf intelligence. There have been opinions of how certain thing are characteristic of not being smart things to do. I'll agree that leaving slots open in squads that have suffered casualties is unorthodox, I wouldn't say that it is foolish, that is simply my opinion. Your opinion is that that is foolish. I think you are associating refusing to reinforce packs with instinct because it is "not the most effective" thing to do.

If you met an tribesman in remote Africa that still hunted with a blowgun, would you offer him a high power rifle claiming that, "Your instinct to use your blowgun is winning out over your human logic to use my high powered rifle. It clearly is better."? His use of the blowgun isn't anything but different to me or you, just as our use of a gun is different to him. His tradition is why he chooses the blowgun, and why the Space Wolves don't replace lost members of their packs and that has nothing to do with instinct, that is culture. Beyond that point of evaluation, any statement about the Space Wolves refusal to beef up their units is entirely opinion.

Something that bothers me about this whole thread is that people like the OP look at intelligence one way. So what if the Space Wolves don't sit around with their free time painting pictures and writing books. Does that actually represent intelligence? Merely a facet of it, I think. If writing or painting is the only way to become truly wise by the OP's standards, most of us will never get there, aside from the mini's we paint. But that is not the only intelligence that matters. As has been stated countless times, Space Wolves may lack that artsy intelligence, but they make up for it in combat and tactical planning. While the BA's paint a picture, the Space Wolves are training their bodies for the next battle. And lets be completely honest here, not EVERY SW or BA is gifted with the ability to be the next Great Wolf or Chapter Master. Not every BA paints a picture worth hanging in the halls of their fortress to be remembered for the ages, but that does not make the pursuit any less important. The Space Wolves develop combat intelligence, training and learning how to parry that next attack, or how to better read their opponents in the heat of battle in the training chamber, and take that knowledge to the next battle. Not every single one will make Wolf Guard, but that does not mean they will not become smarter fighters.

I don't really care if this is a legitimate form of intelligence, but on the battlefield, I would take the "feral cunning" that the OP seems to loathe so much over the fingerpainting skills most BA's develop any day of the week.

Also, for anyone who thinks not reinforcing packs is a good idea, look at WWII and 101st "Easy Company". The "Band of Brothers" movies show exactly how disastrous adding members to seasoned squads can be. They got killed and got the vets killed. Sure, the war acclimated them over time and they grew to be one of the squad, but when you are dealing with a 10 man pack vs. a 144 man company, even one man used to reinforce a 10 man pack could lead to a much more disastrous in the grim dark scenarios of the 40k universe.

You have to know how bull headed a Blood Claw really is to understand why you don't want one of them joining your pack, lol.

Erik Wolfbrother wrote:There have been a few solid factual statements in this thread that provide Space Wolf intelligence.

Then it should be very easy to point to some of them. I've asked for this about four times now, and no one's done it.

I think you are associating refusing to reinforce packs with instinct because it is "not the most effective" thing to do.

No, I've associated it with animal instinct because people have blatantly said that's what it is, that packs don't mix because, you know, wolf packs don't mix. Which isn't even true, to begin with, but it's what was asserted.

If you met an tribesman in remote Africa that still hunted with a blowgun, would you offer him a high power rifle claiming that, "Your instinct to use your blowgun is winning out over your human logic to use my high powered rifle. It clearly is better."? His use of the blowgun isn't anything but different to me or you, just as our use of a gun is different to him. His tradition is why he chooses the blowgun, and why the Space Wolves don't replace lost members of their packs and that has nothing to do with instinct, that is culture. Beyond that point of evaluation, any statement about the Space Wolves refusal to beef up their units is entirely opinion.

If you met a Union general in 1852 and offered him a couple crates of M-16s to use instead of hand-loaded rifles and he refused due to cultural reasons, or superstition, would you think that was a very smart thing to do? Culture peculiarities or antiquities are fine and dandy, but not using the right tool for the right job in war, or deliberately limiting your combat effectiveness because you think you're a wolf, is plain not smart.

And to the folks who say that no, it's plenty smart because the Space Wolves have endured, consider that they've always been an understrength legion, and that their size hasn't fundamentally changed since the Heresy despite not truly being splintered like all the other loyalists. That tells me they waste an awful lot of blood. And, of course, they do. If a squad of 10 Grey Hunters is killed down to 2 Grey Hunters, those 2 Grey Hunters are left on their own rather than reinforced. Are those 2 Grey Hunters as combat effective as 10 Grey Hunters? Of course not. Yet you guys are trying your hardest to make it sound like a perfectly reasonable idea to simply leave them as-is and keep sending them in until they die due to being woefully undermanned for whatever they would be tasked to do as Grey Hunters.


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Topher21 wrote:
Also, for anyone who thinks not reinforcing packs is a good idea, look at WWII and 101st "Easy Company". The "Band of Brothers" movies show exactly how disastrous adding members to seasoned squads can be. They got killed and got the vets killed. Sure, the war acclimated them over time and they grew to be one of the squad, but when you are dealing with a 10 man pack vs. a 144 man company, even one man used to reinforce a 10 man pack could lead to a much more disastrous in the grim dark scenarios of the 40k universe.

That would be a perfectly valid point...if every other Space Marine chapter in existence didn't reinforce understrength squads. The ONLY thing it can be attributed to with Space Wolves is wolftastic wolfiness.

Topher21 wrote:While the BA's paint a picture, the Space Wolves are training their bodies for the next battle.

Really? I thought they were busy getting drunk.

Rascon - is the ability to read a write not intelligent enough for you?

Did you just try and compare a fictional scenario involving time travel to a realistic fiction scenario that's being compared to sci-fiction tabletop game lore?

Undersized legion? The Astartes don't use legions anymore?

O, i'm sry i see you've read the codex and therefore can judge better than people who have read most SW novels. Even if we can't properly convince you...you should take our word for it.

^Why try he is a troll.

Thelaugher wrote:Rascon - is the ability to read a write not intelligent enough for you?

No.

Did you just try and compare a fictional scenario involving time travel to a realistic fiction scenario that's being compared to sci-fiction tabletop game lore?

I did. And it's still not the dumbest of the three.

Undersized legion? The Astartes don't use legions anymore?

But they did. And when they did, the Space Wolves were considered a small legion.

O, i'm sry i see you've read the codex and therefore can judge better than people who have read most SW novels. Even if we can't properly convince you...you should take our word for it.

Why, because you have a higher tolerance for bad writing than I do?

"I've read the books, they're smart," is about as vague as you can get.

Why don't you like Space Wolves?

They aren't dumb they just do things according to tradition even if the tradition is pretty dumb then again most traditions are pretty dumb... like cheese rolling.

Thelaugher wrote:Why don't you like Space Wolves?

I like them fine, I just think they'd be horrible Jeopardy contestants.

Again why the question for a thread title?
You obviously don't wish to be convinced by the arguments against your opinion.
You may as well have been honest and made it a statement.

Upholding traditional values does not mean a lack of intelligence. There have been many great thinkers that have had to work within traditions of sometimes very restrictive cultures.

Another problem largely revolves around an inability to grasp that what you call animal cunning (presumably in the sense of slyness) is not totally exclusive of human rational intelligence.

The Canix helix shows no evidence as far as I am aware of restricting human intelligence in the successful candidates.

On every argument you put forward there is the mistake of equating what you see as a negative attribute with a lack of intelligence and every time people have shown this to be erroneous.
Having been backed into a corner you are merely being stubborn and this thread is going nowhere.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Again why the question for a thread title?
You obviously don't wish to be convinced by the arguments against your opinion.

There haven't been any, aside from, "Space Wolves are just as smart or smarter than everybody else!"

Upholding traditional values does not mean a lack of intelligence. There have been many great thinkers that have had to work within traditions of sometimes very restrictive cultures.

It certainly can show a lack of intelligence or logic, if those traditional values are detrimental.

Another problem largely revolves around an inability to grasp that what you call animal cunning (presumably in the sense of slyness) is not totally exclusive of human rational intelligence.

Actually, if you read the thread, you'd see that I did the exact opposite of that. Instinct and intelligence can coexist quite peacefully and successfully. However, many of the Space Wolves' "cultural" decisions seem to be instinct-based at the EXPENSE of logic, such as refusing to reinforce understrength packs.

On every argument you put forward there is the mistake of equating what you see as a negative attribute with a lack of intelligence and every time people have shown this to be erroneous.

No, they really haven't. They've shown that they haven't thought it through.

Having been backed into a corner you are merely being stubborn and this thread is going nowhere.

I'm merely being indifferent to blind assertions of, "Nuh uh, I'm right." If you don't like that I'm actually asking for some evidence to back up your personal interpretation of the fluff, I'm sorry, but tough.

Try listening to reasoned arguments.
That is a sign of intelligence.

There have been enough posts that have given good reasons why the SW's are not stupid.
But you continue to be wholly indifferent to anything other than your own, unsubstantiated claims.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:
There have been enough posts that have given good reasons why the SW's are not stupid.

You should be more than capable of pointing some out, then. This is now the fifth time I'm asking someone to do just that, and no one seems capable.

@Rascon

I have provided examples of where the Space Wolves show intelligence, yet you claim that there haven't been any cases. In my post to Necrongod I used two events in the SW books and "The Thousand Sons" to offer up them having intelligence. If you accept them however... that is totally up to you, but ignoring the few non-opinion based facts in this thread is just ridiculous.

Secondly, you cant hold us to a standard that you aren't willing to meet yourself. If you don't want to look through 6 books of "fanwank" for things to back up your side of the story, then you cant expect us to do the same. I have given you scenarios where Ragnar held back on action until he had a clear picture of events. If Ragnar were unintelligent, he would have been jumping at shadows the ENTIRE series. He learned from his older Wolfblades and played the role of silent warrior in order to fully understand the whole picture. There is no way you can consider that a non factual statement, and if you do, then you're clearly not fit for debating this topic.

Again you say the following lack of tradition instead of logic is detrimental. Again, I will admit that the SWs do some things that are less than efficient, but being less that efficient is not the same thing as detrimental. Detrimental is an opinionated word the way you used it to describe the SW traditions. Shooting yourself in the head is detrimental to living (objective way of using the word detrimental, there is no arguing that shooting yourself in the head is not going to be bad for you). Watching too much TV is detrimental to young adults (that is an opinionated way of using the word detrimental; what if those teenagers were watching the news or C-SPAN? It totally is based of someone's perspective of the shows they watch or the time that they spend watching TV, a totally opinionated value anyway).

Keeping packs at lower numbers, IN YOUR OPINION is bad. Often times packs don't fall below 50%, and if they did, you now have a new squad of Wolf Scouts that were once a pack or coordinated Grey Hunters. Or those few that survive being Scouts become Wolf Guard. Its not like those that are left alive are stuck there until every last one of them is dead. That would be foolish IN MY OPINION, but that doesn't happen anyway unless all but one of a pack is killed and then the survivor becomes a Lone Wolf. Survivors move up the command chain as the weaker pack members are lost for whatever reason. The ones that survive are seen as having some sort of skill/value/purpose for being around and they are given more responsibility to lead or wield heavy weapons as they are elevated from their old squad rank.

"I'm merely being indifferent to blind assertions of, "Nuh uh, I'm right." If you don't like that I'm actually asking for some evidence to back up your personal interpretation of the fluff, I'm sorry, but tough."

Again, this is a total lack of being able to see a differing perspective. And again you call for proof while you are clinging to one or two choice arguments without any fact-based back up of your own. Before I asked for a hypothetical benchmark of an intelligent chapter, and you disregarded the question. The reason that this thread has gone so far is because people on both sides of the argument REFUSE to yield to the counter argument's points, and simply dispel them as being a "Nuh uh" statement. I have addressed your points in objective ways, but I'm relatively sure that you won't count my points as valid or factual because your refuse to yield. Your mind is already made up and there is no convincing you of anything different.

If there is one key to communicating to someone on the other side of an argument, its being able to listen to other peoples ideas and trying to see some merit to their points. If there isn't atleast some attempt at rhetoric, then we all might as well have our fingers plugged in our ears...................................

See everyone that's just the problem. Rascon is so dense that he refuses to see that all of his points have been disproven already because he dosen't think that the answers given actually qualify as answers. That's why he keeps saying give me actual evidence when that is exactly what people have done, and when he has been told to actually read the sources of the evidence he has dismissed it as bad writing. He also claims to be completly open to the idea of the Space Wolves being intelligent if evidence is given, what kind of person makes such a statement and then dismisses a viable source of such evidence as bad writing? A person who has no intention of listening to anything that dosen't agree with his stance.

This thread will go no further, he is set in believing that the Space Wolves are mentaly incompetent simply because there is not a specific line in the codex that says "All Space Wolves are supreme tactical thinkers" which considering not a single Space Marine codex says as much that would mean that by his standards no Space Marine is intelligent. He fails to see that as the Space Marines where created to be the greatest warriors of humanity in every way this includes having a mental aptitude at a higher then average level. A higher level of intelligence is implied in their very purpose and existance and applies to every chapter and is not affected by the traditions of the chapter.

He says that no one has answered his questions yet they already have been answered he just fails to see them as answers based off of his own opinions which makes any effort to educate him a fools errand. You cannot enlighten someone who does not want to be enlightened. And funny enough he says that no one has answered his questions and yet those questions that have been directed at him have actually gone unanswered, especially the one asking that he give a standard that he believes the Space Wolves should reach in order to be considered intelligent. For someone who is so strongly advocating the idea that the Space Wolves are unintelligent and rely more on instinct then clear thinking you would think he would be able to provide an example of what he qualifies as "using logic over instinct" so that it can be determined if the Space Wolves meet the standard which I have no doubt that they would.

Also his main argument for the Space Wolves general stupidity seems to either come from the point of Space wolves not reinforcing squads that have lost members or the idea that they communicate more effectivly through their enhanced senses then through the comm system of their helmets. He says that the fact that no other chapter does this means that it can hardly be considered intelligent. In that case then every single Space Marine chapter is unintelligent because every chapter has a practice that would not be considered tactically sound by real world military and among each of these chapters the practice exists solely within that chapter as a time honored tradition. And in relation to his dismissing the idea of the squad communicating more effectivly through sent he fails to see that the Space Wolves enhanced senses allow them to track opponents, identify a persons mood which can allow them to better understand a situation them simple words can, verify a beings location as well as many other actions when the helmet can do none of these things which is why most Space Wolves don't wear them.

In the begining this thread started off as a possibly viable discussion concerning the intelligence level of the Space Wolves chapter, although common sense would have lead any mature person who does not outright dislike the Space Wolves to the correct answer the thread still had ground as a discussion. It quickly was established however that the troll who created this thread had no intention of actually listening to any point given to him nor did he wish to actually discuss it. He simply wanted to make his opinion known as well as complain about his own self imposed limitations. Therefore I suggest to any individual who is reading this thread and agreeing with the multitude of members who have provided solid, factual, cannon driven evidence against the creators points and agree that the thread will simply go around in circles ignore the thread instead of responding. It does not deserve the attention that it is recieving and should have been closed already.

Rascon wrote:

You should be more than capable of pointing some out, then. This is now the fifth time I'm asking someone to do just that, and no one seems capable.

Yup I am more than capable
You go looksee for yourself while I put the kettle on for a cuppa.
You have not provided any reasonable evidence as to why they are stupid other than your own subjective musings.
I have taken enough time to show you why that is not acceptable on the grounds of your erroneous conflating of certain SW characterstics with stupidity.

Would you say Rommell was dumb coz he was called the Desert Fox. Foxes are cunning and sly and therefore cannot possibly be intelligent, ergo Rommell was a thicko?

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:the helmet can do none of these things which is why most Space Wolves don't wear them.

Space Wolves don't wear helmets?

Yeah, they're officially dumb.

Therefore I suggest to any individual who is reading this thread and agreeing with the multitude of members who have provided solid, factual, cannon driven evidence against the creators points and agree that the thread will simply go around in circles ignore the thread instead of responding. It does not deserve the attention that it is recieving and should have been closed already.

Wilco
is fair comment. The troll has had enough food on this one.
bye bye