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In a meta-game with a strong mechanized focus and plenty of cover, is there ever a good reason to bring this weapon to the table?

It lacks the flexibility of either the Plasma Cannon or Missile Launcher and it doesn't normally have the raw killing power of a few template weapons. Hell its not even that much of an upgrade over a rapid fire Bolter in most scenarios.

So when is it really worth while? All I have is against T3 units outside of cover or single targets of T4-6 that rely on an Inv save.

i never use them...ever

Heavy bolter is great

On Typhoon Speeders. Everything else is a waste

Heavy Bolters and Plasma Cannons/Missile launchers are great anti infantry units.

I suppose they are OK with land speeders too.

What are they on? Tactical Marines? I throw one in now and then since it's free, and who knows what could happen?

On Predators they make sense, and I like the one on my Phobos Pattern Land Raider as it usually does something useful. So what if that fire warrior gets a cover save from it? It's more of a chance to kill him than if you didn't shoot the heavy bolter at him in the first place!

They're okay. I like Missile Launchers better, but YMMV.

In 2nd edition Heavy Bolters could rattle off up to 6 shots (4 shots on average), and even Space Marines needed a 5+ save against them. They are considerably weaker now with 3 shots max, at AP4, and I think that has reduced their usefulness significantly.

The only thing Heavy Bolters have going for them, is that marine squads aren't allowed assault cannon.

I put them in my scout squads, mostly because it's either that or the missile launcher. Variety mostly.

M.

I use HBs for the sponsons of my dakka pred and I'd plop one on my typhoon speeders if I had any, but I wouldn't put one in a tac squad.

If you use bolter scouts to sit on a midfield objective (or backfield, if you expect the enemy to try and push into your lines), I'd take a HB over a ML. Mathhammer might say it's inefficient (I've never analyzed it), but for anything but backfield campers that will almost never be in range to fire anything but a ML, I'll take the hellfire shell blast (poison 2+ woohoo!) or 3 HB shots option over the single MEQ insta-gib or low AP blast of a ML.

I say decent choice for some vehicles, viable with ranged scouts, but tac/devs have better options, whether you want to sink extra points or not.

Well, I tend to run a Long Fang squad with 2-3 ML and the rest with HB... 'course, that's a 20 point BS 4 HB that can split fire... But mostly I think depends on what you face locally...

minigun762 wrote:In a meta-game with a strong mechanized focus and plenty of cover, is there ever a good reason to bring this weapon to the table?

It lacks the flexibility of either the Plasma Cannon or Missile Launcher and it doesn't normally have the raw killing power of a few template weapons. Hell its not even that much of an upgrade over a rapid fire Bolter in most scenarios.

So when is it really worth while? All I have is against T3 units outside of cover or single targets of T4-6 that rely on an Inv save.

not for spacemarines no. I can't remember them ever being good. Guard can take alot of cheap heavy bolters so they're a different ball of wax.

Depends on what your fighting. Things that are soft and poor saves heavy bolters rock, anything else forget it. I can tell ya my brother, a few times took a devastator squad with 4 of them in it. And that squad was kicking my boyz ass everytime. But again, anything that saves and a decent toughness, forget it

Sitting on preds and typhoons its a good way to force alot of saves. Nothing else really makes sense because they are competing with something better on every other unit.

I use 3 Hvy Bolter Attack Bikes in my 3 Troop Biker squads and a 3 man Attack Bike FA squad.
So I use 6 of them at 1500.

I've been more impressed than anything else...it's not to say they are super awesome. They perform well enough, but not on static platforms IMO.

I'll take it on my land raiders. That's it.

I've seen a squad (Sisters version of Devastators) kitted with 4 of them and the weight of fire is tremendous and will drop marines. I've had a unit of Deathwing go under in just a two turns from that group. Bad rolling yes but being able to force your opponnent to make that many saves is good. In my inexperienced opinion if you want to take them, take a lot of them and pour all the fire on a single target till its dead or isn't a threat anymore.

Personally, I love the heavy bolters on my dakka preds as it pushes more fire out against hordes. I can't say I'd ever put them into a tactical squad or a dev squad without going all the way with them.

On a predator or typhoon they're fine, and might work for scouts. For tac squads, they just don't stand up to the multi-melta or missile launcher you could get for free. The HB is a bit better than a ML or MM against marines in cover, and better in general against 4+ save armies, but it's only 3 kills at most and just doesn't compare to giving up either the ability to threaten light armor reliably (ML) or scare off heavy armor and threaten light armor at short range (MM). They work for armies that can take a lot of them cheap, but they're not cheap for marines.

I did have fun using a dev squad with 4x HB sitting in a building with the 'reroll failed wounds' special in a small city fight game (ended up slaughtering some MCs), but that's really a specialized use, I wouldn't spend that many points in a regular game.

I tried 4 HBs in a dev squad versus some ymgarl genestealers, it certainly raped them, remember on a hit you are taking away 22 points of the enemy force.

It was of course a fun game, at like 500 points, and they worked well.

i like my Heavy bolters personally, I tend to run 4 tac sqauds
with H bolters and 3 dev sqauds with 4 missile launchers each, the rest of my list is just gravy.

the tac sqauds i mostly split up into combat sqauds, 4 h bolters deal with things like buggies/speeders/medium infantry/light infantry, while 12 krak shots kill most tanks/heavy infantry very quickly

i will chime in with my 2cents on this. I am a firm believer in the power of the bolter. I more shots i get to fling around the better. And yes it depends on the opponent as to how MANY i take. I have mostly fought and for some reason continue to play against a lot of tyranid and ork players. So my bolters get a lot of use, and make good on table top. I am also a fan of shooting.. the more i shoot the more saves you have to make... which means the more you can fail. Yes instant death has its appeal and I mix it up, but leveling off rapid fire bolters from a tact squad, then finishing up with 3 heavy bolter shots.... pure magic... but thats IMHO. I am as well a below average roller.... i like to roll low... on everything except leadership tests. that being said, i deffer to the fore mentioned, more shooting = more hits = more wounds = more death.

I think they're a decent weapon against GEQ where they ignore armor saves, or against foot lists where they force a lot of saves.

Sadly, from the metagame perspective, most armies are either Mech or Space Marines where Heavy bolters lose out to the versatility of Missile Launchers.

On the bright side, HB don't scatter.

M.

HB bolters in marines are outclassed by nearly any weapon you can take in the army list. Even with 3 shots, you are not even killing a single guardman on average. (unless your opponent gives you a clear shot at said models, then you kill less than 2 on average).

Here is the math: 3 shots, 2 hits, 1 and 2/3 wound. If they are in cover (which they should be unless they are using the Zapp Brannigan school of 40k) they save half of those wounds. So 5/6th of a dead guardsman.

That is pretty pathetic depending on what you are firing it from. If it is a SM, then you are paying 15 points+ the cost of the HB (depends on which slot, could be free, could cost 10-15 points) to kill less than one 5 points model a turn. Now if the HB bolter is a free or cheap upgrade, like on Tyhoon speeders, regular LRs, or dakka preds, then the poor mathhammer results are a bit more acceptable.

I use heavy bolters. Despite having poor mathhammer, its the only real anti-hoard long range weaponry for space marines.

As a wolf player, I use a 5 man Longfang all heavy bolters. Or a squad of 3 speeders all armed with heavy bolters.

They are extremely good against Terminators and TWC. better than taking the TFC or Whirlwind on my book.

Ponder this:

For 115 points on long fangs, they ridiculously get back their points, and some more. Its even funnier when they are ignored. 15 bs4 shots at S5 ap 4?

3-speeder squadron: Its 180 points, for 18 heavy bolter shots that can relocate every turn. Very annoying. They are also blurred by target priority.

Alright, you can look at mathhammer and say that the HB sucks.. because of averages etc etc, but i would rather get my 5/6th wound.. than miss with my one shot lascannon/multimelta, or even scatter the average 3in with P.Cannon (which will usually have a potential of hitting nothing, since the diameter of the blast if 3in.)
i think anything the SM bring to a table is worth it, i enjoy the HB, anything can be good, to make something great is all in how you use it.

Yuber wrote:
For 115 points on long fangs, they ridiculously get back their points, and some more. Its even funnier when they are ignored. 15 bs4 shots at S5 ap 4?

That could be a case of having a cost-effective unit to spam them with. A Long Fang with a Heavy Bolter is what, 20 points?

Thats 2/3 of what it costs for most other options not to mention its more firepower in 1 FOC slot then is possible elsewhere.


I want to like them because they seem to iconic but it feels like they don't have a place in an all-comers list unless you really load up on your anti-tank elsewhere and have a cheap way to field a bunch of them like LF.

2 full squads of HB long fangs made my bike marine list cry last time I played but if i used my mech list against that same army I would of laughed it off the table. Long fangs with heavy bolters are awesome against infantry but so is most things that SW can field. You really need those long fangs to be taking out MC's/transports with missile launchers unless you tailor your list when going up against pure infantry. The str 4 small blast the launchers have isn't as effective vs infantry as the HB but you'll be glad you have the str 8 when some one shows up with a bunch of cheap transports.

I really like the IDEA of man-carried heavy bolters, but in a standard Marine force, the only way to get them in massed quantities is in a Dev squad. We all know how reviled the Devastator Squad is now.
I can see them being at least a little useful in that platform, in an all-comers list when properly supported. That's the key for everything, obviously. Proper support.

The heavy bolter has a very respectable profile. 36" range, S5, AP4, Heavy 3. The heavy 3 is why you don't typically take them in a tactical squad. Firing the heavy bolter precludes the firing of Rapid Fire bolter shots, and ALL of your special weapon options, except the plasmagun at 24". Tac Squads tend to be mounted in Rhinos these days, or in pods. Neither option really allows a heavy bolter to get much use. In a Rhino, you're limited to just the 3 shots, plus whatever other model you're firing out of the top hatch, and only if you're not moving. Rhinos that don't move tend to eat it, fast. Pods make the bolters and the special weapon the stars of the show, so the heavy bolter sits unused in favor of a bolt pistol.

Sternguard can take a couple heavy bolters, but since you not only PAY for the priveledge, and lose the special ammo, you're better off without them.

Legion of the Damned...we wont go there I love the unit, but just can't justify taking them. Debate for another thread, which you can find via Searchy.

Scouts can get some nice angles of fire by Infiltrating the heavy bolter. You have enough shots to make them passable, which is hard with a missile launcher. Plus, the 2+ wound template the heavy bolter can spit out is very cool. Sniper Rifles also match the heavy bolter range band.

Devvies allow you to spam the heavy bolters. 12 shots, 3 of which are at BS5 (sergeant with signum), can land a LOT of hits, and a respectable amount of wounds. Your main decision becomes whether you take a 5-man bare-bones unit, or pay more points for some meatshield bolter Marines. I like 10-man units myself, since I canuse Combat Squads to full effect then, or can avoid losing firepower from every casualty like you do in a bare-bones unit.

Attack Bikes aren't technically 'man-portable' but definitely deserve a mention. Relentless makes these bad boys infinitely more useful. You can use a 12" move to line up the perfect cover-negating shot, or hit the flanks of armored vehicles. You can even throw in the shots from those twin-linked bolters in the same turnof shooting.


The best thing to shoot with Heavy Bolters? Squadroned vehicles, small squads, or large squads with crappy saves.
A volley of heavy bolter fire can eat the face off Landspeeders, Vypers, Pirhanas, and even Kans. The reason heavy bolters are so tasty against squadrons is because of the boosted chances of causing a Wreck, via Immobilization. In theory,you'll get at least one glance against a squadron of Kans with a volley of 12 heavy bolter shots. One of the possible damage results can still kill off a Kan. Long, long odds, though. Line up 12 heavy bolter shots on Speeders, Pirhanas, or Vypers though, and watch the pieces fly.
Small squads hate torrents of fire. A dozen heavy bolter shots will make a lot of small, elite units cry blood. Even Terminators cringe when rolling a save for every model. We all know how much 'successive ones syndrome' hurts.
You can whittle down a large squad of Boyz quick, fast, and in a hurry with 12 heavy bolter shots. Same with Guardsmen. Even a 10-man Tactical Squad will be failing armor saves when hit with a volley.

You just have to get those targets to be available, and that's where you need the anti-tank fire from tactical squad heavies, Predators, etc. Once the cans are open, the heavy bolter rounds can fly.

In the end, it comes down to playstyle. If you don't like the randomness of scattering templates or one-shot instakills that miss, heavy bolters might be for you. If you prefer specialized, compartmented roles for your units, avoid heavy bolters, because they're a middle-of-the-road choice that is awesome at nothing, but passable at everything (up to AV 11 anyways, lol).

I think they were much better last edition when they could blow up rhinos pretty easily and were defensive weapons. Wolves can get them cheaply but for regular marines I don't see the utility. Half of the time your shooting at a unit in cover and devastators take up a heavy slot which I always seem to be short on.

If something comes with them great! If you have to pay for them, I can't really think of a circumstance where I like them.

I once played a dude who ran a squadron of 3 landspeeders with dual HBs. They wound up being pretty cost effective, and I had enough other problems that I'm not sure I took a single shot at the bastards. They did some impressive damage for their price.

TheRhino wrote:
In the end, it comes down to playstyle. If you don't like the randomness of scattering templates or one-shot instakills that miss, heavy bolters might be for you. If you prefer specialized, compartmented roles for your units, avoid heavy bolters, because they're a middle-of-the-road choice that is awesome at nothing, but passable at everything (up to AV 11 anyways, lol).

+1

i agree, i am a middle of the road person, I hate scattering templates, and I hate missing with big instant death weapons. I like lots of shots, lots of possible hits, and lots of possible (however unlikely) wounds. You can argue averages and mathhammer all you want (which i [color=red]HATE[/color0]...mathhammer that is) but if the chance is there that when you put out shots and do damage, i will take that over the expensive lascannon missing its one shot, and not doing anything. I have other units that deal with AV11+ Heavy bolters are infantry/light vehicle only. You can't expect them to be more than that... other wise you are just setting yourself up for disappointment.