Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Well I didn't spot one for 5th edition, so I thought I would begin one. I like discussions

I was assembling my Razorback while thinking about what I'd do for a guard army. Then I got to thinking about terrain, because I'm slightly scatter brained like that. That lead me to thinking about a terrain piece involving a Rhino that turned into me thinking about why IG can't get a Rhino.

There are two levels on which to discuss this, and I'd like to do both. First is the fluff reasons, where the designs were once wide spread but lost during the Age of Strife and only relatively recently reintroduced into Imperial forces. The other is the meta-game, which I am relatively poor with currently. The meta game is that IG has a better transport and relies on it more. Then there's meta-fluff, in which the Rhino is the weakly armored "balance" to the heavily armored Tac Squad, and the far more shooty Chimera more of the IG's "thing". Then there's the whole chasis variant thing...

But when you look at it, especially in this edition you'd think they'd be more widespread. It's supposed to be very easy to manufacture, which can be attested by the fact that it is a very simple looking vehicle. It, like most other Imperial vehicles, can run on nearly any fuel. You would think at least one IG regiment would find a way to procure STC designs (or even trade with a forge world) to access these light transports. In this edition, they are a measly 35 points, carrying with them a storm bolter. It has weak armor and poor fire power, but it makes intrinsic sense for a mech IG army to have these. It allows larger platoons to mechanize very easily, saving 20 points per squad (or 60 points per troop choice at the bare minimum). They used to have access to overcharged engines, letting them become faster, but that appears to be gone now. They allow a good number of models to fire out, and though it lacks armor so long as it serves to rush squads into cover it remains reasonably survivable. So should a Rhino become an IG choice in the future (never going to happen), and would it be the worst thing for a home-brew IG army based deeply into the already fine IG codex to take them instead of Chimeras?

You guys are the vets; I'd like to hear what you all think. The more opinions the better!

M.

I think the Chimera looks better than the Rhino anyway, but regardless, not all Rhinos are utilized by power armored armies. For example, the Arbites use Rhinos.

For some reason in the Space Wolf books (one of them anyway) all the guard are mounted in rhinos during an assault.

The difference in transports shows a big difference in the play style of Marines vs. Guard.

1) AV Values: the rhino is 11 11 10 where the chimera is 12 10 10. Same "total" but the rhino has more side armor. The Rhino is made to advance and get into the thick of the enemy, just like the marine army should. This is represented by having more side armor. The chimera is made to stay back and stay in a formation. The higher front armor is faced at the enemy, and the vehicles on either side protect the AV 10.

2) Weaponry/fire points: The rhino has none essentially. The storm bolter is there to protect it from a weapon destroyed result. It is meant to move 12" and have the marines get out. This is why there are only 2 fire points. Enough to shoot both the special and heavy weapon. The chimera has a turret and hull weapon, both of which are better quality than a storm bolter. Also, it has 5 fire points. It is made to move 6" of less, fire one or two guns and the squad stays inside shooting out of the tank.

They are two very different vehicles made for two very different armies. The rhino simply does not fit with the fluff or the play style of a guard army. It is a tank made to get out of, which the guard should not be doing all that much if you want to go all mech.

If you want rhinos but also love S/T 3, you could always play sisters of battle.

Melissia wrote:I think the Chimera looks better than the Rhino anyway, but regardless, not all Rhinos are utilized by power armored armies. For example, the Arbites use Rhinos.

And the inquisition. It just seems to be reserved for special use. With the Chimera being better armoured and more shooty it does the same job better. All for the low cost of 20 points more. What you should be asking for is Chimeras for your marines!

And if Marines ever got chimeras, I would be pissed.

I can't think of a situation where i'd rather have a rhino over a chimera. I like the front armor, I like the weapons, I like the fire points.

A razorback, on the other hand, could prove more usefull.

Fluff wise, i'm sure the Guard would jump in any vehicle that gives them cover and is blessed by the omnisiah. Its just that Rhino's are less prevelant than Chimeras. Probably because its harder to make considering it has to support space marines.

Why the IG would want Rhinos at all is beyond me! The Chimera is just better. Also, and regarding the fluff side of things, the Guardsmen would surely be dwarfed by a Rhino as a Rhino is built to carry armour plated 8 ft tall uber space monks. And the Chimera is not.....Just a thought.....

Once upon a time, Guard *could* take Rhinos, because there was no Chimera kit. iIRC it was only available to certain squads and a mech army wasn't possible. This is going back to White Dwarf 110 or thereabouts, and my memory is temporarily disabled.

Lexx wrote:

Melissia wrote:I think the Chimera looks better than the Rhino anyway, but regardless, not all Rhinos are utilized by power armored armies. For example, the Arbites use Rhinos.

And the inquisition. It just seems to be reserved for special use. With the Chimera being better armoured and more shooty it does the same job better. All for the low cost of 20 points more. What you should be asking for is Chimeras for your marines!

for the price of a bare razorback that can take twelve marines, with a multilazer, AND a heavy Flamer with Smoke grenades. Heck you can even make it a bare razorback by just taking the HB turret and hull heavy bolter and you essentially get the ability to take six more marines, which is more than the normal size tac squad in a razorback.... yeah, Marines should be asking for chimeras.

in any case marines rhinos are very thin skinned, they are basically there to drive forward fast and drop off the marines. Marines have armor themselves so it's not really an issue, when you wear a tank around you, you don't need to have a lot of armor on your vehicle. its much akin to putting tanks in a tin foil transport, now if your occupants have paper armor on the other hand, rhinos quickly become deathtraps.

now as someone said if we could take razorbacks..... well we couldn't use them but if we could fit a whole squad into one I'd welcome the ability to take more gatling guns.

Rhinos hardly have paper thin armor. They're actually pretty well armored, but they're intended to be fast transports, rather than heavy duty ones. Rhinos, in the fluff, are more mobile than a Chimera, and better able to withstand hits on anything other than its front armor as well.

Melissia wrote:Rhinos hardly have paper thin armor. They're actually pretty well armored, but they're intended to be fast transports, rather than heavy duty ones. Rhinos, in the fluff, are more mobile than a Chimera, and better able to withstand hits on anything other than its front armor as well.

not paper thin armor, a heavy bolter can take out a rhino, hell the multilasers on the chimera can take out the rhino.

Yes, which are heavy weapons that the average human cannot carry and utilize by themselves, having to set up in teams.

Chimeras and Rhinos fit 2 different rolls; effectively the Difference between an m2 Bradley and a BTR-50(russian Tracked troop transport, looks kinda like a rhino); one is an IFV and the other an APC.

The Chimera not only gets the troops to battle "safely" but also supports the troops with it's own armament(an IFV).

The Rhino just delivers the troops(an APC).

I'd say the armor on the Rhino is very economical, AV 11 takes it out of range of small arms fire from most races so in order to take it out you need to be aiming a heavy weapon at it.

Sure a Heavy Bolter could take out a Rhino but in how many shots? As said before it really isn't meant to shoot so the first weapon destroyed result is kind of a waste as well as any crew shaken results. So in the 1 - 6 chance that you score a glance, two of the six results end up with me still dropping a squad of marines on the objective. That's bad enough but now consider that you HAVE to fire a heavy weapon for both side and front armor because unless you're Tau your guns bounce off of armor 11.

There is no fluff reason the IG cannot take rhinos, rhinos are always described as being ubiquitious, common on all worlds and a standard imperial vehicle (except when GW has a new rhino kit to sell when they suddenly became rare artifacts marines would fight to death to reclaim even a wrecked rhino).

In fact the IG could take them in Rogue Trader and Epic, maybe 2nd edition too, I'd have to check.

The only reason they can't is branding and game balance.

If it helps I would suggest that the IG do use rhinos but mainly in a support/logistics role rather than on the front line. So you could make some cargo, communications or medical rhinos as your terrain.

Melissia wrote:Yes, which are heavy weapons that the average human cannot carry and utilize by themselves, having to set up in teams.

Tau pulse rifles can kill them head on. Drones. I mean they're not even anti tank weapons and if an anti infantry weapon can kill it I'd call it paper thin.

If it helps I would suggest that the IG do use rhinos but mainly in a support/logistics role rather than on the front line. So you could make some cargo, communications or medical rhinos as your terrain.

I'd actually like to see a medical rhino. But what would you put on it?, in the far future the red cross just becomes a bullseye.

gendoikari87 wrote:I'd actually like to see a medical rhino. But what would you put on it?, in the far future the red cross just becomes a bullseye.

Just brainstorming: Some sort of apothecary symbol from a marine codex maybe? A syringe?

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:I'd actually like to see a medical rhino. But what would you put on it?, in the far future the red cross just becomes a bullseye.

Just brainstorming: Some sort of apothecary symbol from a marine codex maybe? A syringe?

Here's some medical rhinos and IG rhinos from the RT Compilation

Thank you for some photo references of the Imperial Guard Rhinos I had mentioned. I knew I wasn't imagining it!

gendoikari87 wrote:Tau pulse rifles can kill them head on. Drones. I mean they're not even anti tank weapons and if an anti infantry weapon can kill it I'd call it paper thin.

The bolter would be considered a light anti-tank weapon by modern standards, and it's only S4. The bolter can destroy almost any vehicle in 40k.

The Tau pulse rifle is a very powerful weapon, far too powerful in fact for standard anti-infantry duties (WWI/WWII weapons were similarly overpowered for what they needed to do, and subsequently the scale of the weapons and their ammunition payload was in most cases scaled down).

Thank you for some photo references of the Imperial Guard Rhinos I had mentioned. I knew I wasn't imagining it!

gazelle wrote:Thank you for some photo references of the Imperial Guard Rhinos I had mentioned. I knew I wasn't imagining it!

Only the top right one on he first picture is imperial guard.

If Marines ever got our heavy stubbers.... Everyone better watch out!

purplefood wrote:

gazelle wrote:Thank you for some photo references of the Imperial Guard Rhinos I had mentioned. I knew I wasn't imagining it!

Only the top right one on he first picture is imperial guard.

But five out of eight in the second picture are. Those were the good ol' days, with one size fits all STC vehicles...

purplefood wrote:

gazelle wrote:Thank you for some photo references of the Imperial Guard Rhinos I had mentioned. I knew I wasn't imagining it!

Only the top right one on he first picture is imperial guard.

Check the second page

Melissia wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:Tau pulse rifles can kill them head on. Drones. I mean they're not even anti tank weapons and if an anti infantry weapon can kill it I'd call it paper thin.

The bolter would be considered a light anti-tank weapon by modern standards, and it's only S4. The bolter can destroy almost any vehicle in 40k.

The Tau pulse rifle is a very powerful weapon, far too powerful in fact for standard anti-infantry duties (WWI/WWII weapons were similarly overpowered for what they needed to do, and subsequently the scale of the weapons and their ammunition payload was in most cases scaled down).

Um NO. Even heavy bolters would ping off the side of modern IFVs. I swear people see .50 cal and .75 cal in the fluff an instantly think .50bmg level firepower... well guess what, it's not. The mass of the bolter type shells is in great part propellant making it very light, and not very hard without the diamante tip. At short ranges the bolter has even less power than 9mm handgun, and even at long ranges suffers from light weight with high diameter, so even with its high velocity at long range it's not that penetrative. A .50bmg is good at penetrating armor because it's high velocity, hard AND heavy. Bolter shells are going to more than likely squash on impact from the tail and the diamante tip will just bounce off or shatter. They might be good for light body armor but if they meet anything resembling real armor they're not going to stand up to it. having a hard nose means nothing if you don't reinforce down the length.

take the heavy stubber for example it's a str 4 already it's basically a 7.62mm NATO shell. Going by that a .50bmg would be str 5 Like a heavy bolter round, and a 20mm would be like a multi-laser, and str 7 would be an autocannon, which is exactly what the autocannon is... a bushmaster (the upgraded 25-30mm versions)

gendoikari87 wrote:The mass of the bolter type shells is in great part propellant making it very light, and not very hard without the diamante tip.

Cite your source. All information I know contradicts this.

At short ranges the bolter has even less power than 9mm handgun

Not only wrong, but hilariously wrong. A boltgun is not a gyrojet weapon. It does not have the flaws of gyrojet weapons.

take the heavy stubber for example

The Heavy Stubber is equivalent to a modern heavy machinegun, such as the M2 Browning (which fires .50 caliber bullets).

Woah, woah, woah... woah.

You can shoot out of a rhino?

Can marines do that once it's moved? And if they do can they not get out? EXPLEHN THE RULES TO ME PEOPLE, ME RULEBOOK'S IN THE ATTIC!

Melissia wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:The mass of the bolter type shells is in great part propellant making it very light, and not very hard without the diamante tip.

Cite your source. All information I know contradicts this.


See that green stuff, that's propellant, once it's gone you have just the shell of the casing left.

At short ranges the bolter has even less power than 9mm handgun

Not only wrong, but hilariously wrong. A boltgun is not a gyrojet weapon. It does not have the flaws of gyrojet weapons.

Bolt weapons are smoothbore, semi- and fully-automatic guns that fire a two-stage projectile known as bolts. The bolt is more a miniature explosive rocket than a conventional bullet. As the round leaves the barrel, the bolt's tiny rocket is ignited, which carries the warhead forward and imparts a stabilizing spin. In a conventional firearm, the projectile begins to lose velocity as soon as it leaves the barrel. A bolt, however, continues to accelerate throughout its trajectory due to the additional thrust.

Definition of a gyrojet, in the article if further explains that the charge is just enough to get the round out of the barrel before the main rocket is ignited.

take the heavy stubber for example

The Heavy Stubber is equivalent to a modern heavy machinegun, such as the M2 Browning (which fires .50 caliber bullets).

That my friend would be a german MG3, heavy stubbers take all forms of machine guns and only the IG standard ones Resemble the MH2 Ma duce, but they only resemble them they aren't .50, and in fact they actually look more like 30cal machine guns, what you would call medium machine guns, they are closer to a true machine gun like the anti infantry emplacements of wwII. Rather than the .50cal beast.

Just because they look similar does not mean they are, they are stated as being anti infantry weapons, the .50bmg might be an Anti infantry weapon but it's first job is anti materiel and anti-aircraft.