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Take the Dias with Vect and a 9 man unit, let's say 9 Bloodbrides.

Dawn of War, you deploy your single HQ unit, which you deploy your Dias.

Dias has to start the game with Vect and the Bloodbrides riding inside it. They are not deployed with it, they just start the game inside the thing.

This reminds me of units that 'always do so and so regardless of mission' in their rules, just like how the old mandrakes used to be able to be deployed out in Dawn Of War despite being Elites.

Seems like the Mandrakes subversion of the Dawn of War deployment just got passed on to the Dias. Dark Eldar are just sneaky like that.

What else would you like to stick in the Dias in Dawn of War for that first turn goodness?

I'd call that cheating. If you aren't allowed to deploy more than 1 HQ and 2 troops, you're obviously not allowed to deploy the Dais of Destruction, since it would break the rules. Otherwise, I'd be allowed to deploy all chimeras of an IG list with troops and HQs in it at turn 1 because, by your logic, "the units aren't deployed, they jsut start inside their transports".

AlmightyWalrus wrote:I'd call that cheating. If you aren't allowed to deploy more than 1 HQ and 2 troops, you're obviously not allowed to deploy the Dais of Destruction, since it would break the rules. Otherwise, I'd be allowed to deploy all chimeras of an IG list with troops and HQs in it at turn 1 because, by your logic, "the units aren't deployed, they jsut start inside their transports".

I don't see how this is cheating. Other units in the game can be deployed in missions regardless of this or that. Since 5th edition has been around, there was never an issue with deploying Mandrakes in Dawn of War because Mandrakes allowed you to do so. I fail to see how deploying the Dias, which is a single HQ unit, cheating. The Dias has its own special rules which forces you to include Vect and 9 other models in the Dias when you deploy the Dias. You aren't deploying Vect nor the other unit inside the Dias by any definition of deployment.

BuFFo wrote:I don't see how this is cheating. Other units in the game can be deployed in missions regardless of this or that. Since 5th edition has been around, there was never an issue with deploying Mandrakes in Dawn of War because Mandrakes allowed you to do so. I fail to see how deploying the Dias, which is a single HQ unit, cheating. The Dias has its own special rules which forces you to include Vect and 9 other models in the Dias when you deploy the Dias. You aren't deploying Vect nor the other unit inside the Dias by any definition of deployment.

"The Dais of Destruction must begin the game carrying nine models in addition to Vect himself."

This doesn't give you permission to deploy additional units, nor does it suggest that placing Vect and his unit in the Dais is in any way different to normal deployment.

In order to break no rules, you must deploy Vect and a 9-model unit in the Dais. And must deploy no more than 1 HQ and 2 Troops choices.

By the Dais' nature, you cannot ever deploy it during Dawn of War.

Seems more like a topic for YMDC, but I agree with the other posters, there is nothing in the rules that allow you to override the DoW restrictions

I agree, it cant be deployed. It would be different if you had to deploy 1 HQ choice during dawn of war. But you can satisfy all rule requirements by not deploying it.

As pointed DoW only allows a maximum of one HQ unit and two Troops units. Vect & posse plus the Dais would break the HQ allowance.

Yeah, I understand what DOW says, but you are NOT deploying Vect and his unit. They simply begin the game with the Dias, which is the only HQ unit you are deploying.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:I'd call that cheating. If you aren't allowed to deploy more than 1 HQ and 2 troops, you're obviously not allowed to deploy the Dais of Destruction, since it would break the rules. Otherwise, I'd be allowed to deploy all chimeras of an IG list with troops and HQs in it at turn 1 because, by your logic, "the units aren't deployed, they jsut start inside their transports".

Wait a second... How come in this thread here...

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/328794.page

You clearly advocate a specific codex rule overriding a basic rule, yet you are not doing the same with Dias and it's codex specific rule?

I fail to see how one specific rule works, yet the other doesn't.

In order to break no rules, you must deploy Vect and a 9-model unit in the Dais. And must deploy no more than 1 HQ and 2 Troops choices.

Read this again. It is very easy. In order to not break any rules, you cannot deploy the Dais

Illumini wrote:

In order to break no rules, you must deploy Vect and a 9-model unit in the Dais. And must deploy no more than 1 HQ and 2 Troops choices.

Read this again. It is very easy. In order to not break any rules, you cannot deploy the Dais

Once again, you are ONLY dpeloying a single HQ unit. Nowhere in the Dias' rule does it state you are deploying Vect and the unit with him. They are essentially glued together at the start of the game.

I am failing to see why everyone advocates codex rules over basic rules, yet here, no one is willing to accept it.

Dawn of War says you can only deploy this and that. By deploying the Dias with vect and friends, you are still only deploying one HQ unit.

To clarify, you have the option to not deploy the dais. Not doing so would break no rules. Doing so would break rules. Hence, no deploying dais.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dawn of War says you can only deploy this and that. By deploying the Dias with vect and friends, you are still only deploying one HQ unit.

Wow, this is so off:

1. A transport is a unit. So are the models that go inside. So even if Vect didn't have to bring 9 models, you wouldn't be able to deploy him in the Dais.

2. His friends, no matter what, are not an HQ unit.

BuFFo wrote:Yeah, I understand what DOW says

You don't. There are so many problems with what you're suggesting. See page 93:

"All units that were not deployed, and were not declared to be in reserve during deployment, must enter the game in the Movement phase of their first player turn by moving in from their own table edge"

If Vect and his unit weren't deployed, as you say they aren't, then they must move on from the Dark Eldar's table edge. Which breaks the Dais of Destruction rule - thus, you can't deploy the Dais at all.

Additionally:

"At the end of deployment the player still has a maximum of one HQ and two Troops units on the table"

No qualifier about the units having to have been "deployed". Simply, they cannot be on the table once deployment is finished.

CurrentlyUnknown wrote:To clarify, you have the option to not deploy the dais. Not doing so would break no rules. Doing so would break rules. Hence, no deploying dais.

To clarify, you are still only deploying the Dias. You are not deploying Vect nor his friends. This isn't a case of sticking a unit inside a dedicated transport before actually deploying the unit. This is a case of deploying the Dias, which just happens to have Vect and his friends inside.

No one has yet to show me that Vect is actually being deployed by the Deployment rules in the basic rule book.

As far as I see, only the Dias is being deployed via the Dawn of War deployment rules.

MinMax wrote:

BuFFo wrote:Yeah, I understand what DOW says

You don't. There are so many problems with what you're suggesting. See page 93:

"All units that were not deployed, and were not declared to be in reserve during deployment, must enter the game in the Movement phase of their first player turn by moving in from their own table edge"

If Vect and his unit weren't deployed, as you say they aren't, then they must move on from the Dark Eldar's table edge. Which breaks the Dais of Destruction rule - thus, you can't deploy the Dais at all.

Normally true, but here, codex rule > basic rule, as does all codex rules, so it doesn't matter as the Dias must be deployed with it's passengers inside it, regardless of what the mission says.

"At the end of deployment the player still has a maximum of one HQ and two Troops units on the table"

No qualifier about the units having to have been "deployed". Simply, they cannot be on the table once deployment is finished.

Out of all the posters here, you are the only person to have quoted anything that I was specifically looking for that would disallow this kind of action.

Thank you for helping me out.

The Dias remains to be a 200 point piece of crap... sad times!

You are not deploying one HQ unit. You are deploying 2+something else. A unit is a unit even when it's inside it's transport. Nothing in the Dais text says that the passengers stop being units, right? It just states that it must start the game with passenger X+Y. When you have 3 units on the table, how can you possibly claim that they are just one?

See post by MInMax. Ultimately it does not matter whether you try to "deploy","summon", "put" or otherwise materialize Vect and his posse at the start of DoW. It would still lead to an illegal number of HQ units on the table.

A-P wrote: See post by MInMax. Ultimately it does not matter whether you try to "deploy","summon", "put" or otherwise materialize Vect and his posse at the start of DoW. It would still lead to an illegal number of HQ units on the table.

You mean the one I quoted and responded to?

The Dais is a dedicated transport for Vect. The rules for the Dais state...

"Vect may ride to battle upon the Dais of Destruction; a special Raider dedicated transport with three Dark Lances and sophisticated force shields that give it Armour 13 on all sides. The Dais of Destruction must begin the game carrying nine models in addition to Vect himself. Other than this, it is treated exactly like a Raider (See page 44)." On page 55, Vect's profile page.

If what you're saying is true, than any Dark Eldar Army can deploy every single model, so long as it's in a dedicated transport, as you're deploying a dedicated transport instead of the unit inside of it. This goes for any Guard army with Chimera spam, and any SM Army with Rhino/Razorback spam. Obviously that is not the case.

Shikahake7 wrote:The Dais is a dedicated transport for Vect. The rules for the Dais state...

"Vect may ride to battle upon the Dais of Destruction; a special Raider dedicated transport with three Dark Lances and sophisticated force shields that give it Armour 13 on all sides. The Dais of Destruction must begin the game carrying nine models in addition to Vect himself. Other than this, it is treated exactly like a Raider (See page 44)." On page 55, Vect's profile page.

If what you're saying is true, than any Dark Eldar Army can deploy every single model, so long as it's in a dedicated transport, as you're deploying a dedicated transport instead of the unit inside of it. This goes for any Guard army with Chimera spam, and any SM Army with Rhino/Razorback spam. Obviously that is not the case.

Yes, I know this. Read the entire thread please.

Well when i play him with the dais I run him with a group of nine wytches( which are troops now and the raider is transport) so it give me a HQ vect, two units of troops Wytches and Dais( which is a raider you can up grade with night shields s flickershields and what ever nastys you want on it) Its legal if you use troops in it
his archon court( i dont know about since it doesnt take up a force chart... kinda like the old Incubi.)

Basically - stop trying to break rules


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(And the reason mandrakes worked is you were told to break the rules)

@BuFfo: You're reacting rather strongly for someone that posted a rule-breaking tactic, railed against everyone trying to explain you were wrong (politely mind you), and then finally realized so. You made a mistake. Just say 'yep, I was wrong' and be done with it.

Well when i play him with the dais I run him with a group of nine wytches( which are troops now and the raider is transport) so it give me a HQ vect, two units of troops Wytches and Dais( which is a raider you can up grade with night shields s flickershields and what ever nastys you want on it) Its legal if you use troops in it
his archon court( i dont know about since it doesnt take up a force chart... kinda like the old Incubi.)

The dais is not a troop. It is a dedicated transport, and in the same slot it is chosen from (HQ for Vect). Secondly, you can't upgrade the dais as currently written. It is a normal raider. That is all. The page that it references has no special additions.

StarGate wrote: Well when i play him with the dais I run him with a group of nine wytches( which are troops now and the raider is transport) so it give me a HQ vect, two units of troops Wytches and Dais( which is a raider you can up grade with night shields s flickershields and what ever nastys you want on it) Its legal if you use troops in it
his archon court( i dont know about since it doesnt take up a force chart... kinda like the old Incubi.)

Key part here, Dedicated Transports are the FoC of what they are dedicated to, in this case Vect a HQ so you're deploying 2HQ 1 troops

Also To note that due to the Dias' Special rules Vect(When purchacing the Dias) cannot be deployed at all until at least turn 1 in a Dawn of War scenario.

The same goes with Sliscus who cannot be deployed at all unless a unit of Kabalite warriors or trueborn are taken along with him(Possibly, depending on how you read the wording of The Serpents Venom). Although A fairly strong starting force would be Sliscus, a unit of Warriors, The Warriors Raider with Splinter racks. Too bad there is no way to make trueborn Troops; as the above units exchanging Warriors for trueborn and giving the trueborn Carbines is one of my favorite field-ables from the new dex.

They have clarified that in Dawn of War deployment dedicated transports count as a separate unit. So you cannot deploy two squads of space marines in Rhino's That would be 4 squads of troops in the scenario. You can deploy a Rhino with Space Marines. That would be both the allotted troops.

Vect and his Dias would be 2 HQ's. He would have to be left in reserve. Keep in mind nothing forces you to deploy anything at all in DOW. So, Vect doesn't somehow force his way on the table.

/thread

ok having read the rulebook and the DE codex, you CAN deploy the dias under the following circumstance andheres how.

1,vect counts as an HQ choice, however his dias is NOT. "it is treated EXACTLY like a raider"
2: as long as the unit that hops on it is a troops selection, so warriors or wyches (or wracks of a haemey is in army) then that would be your deployment. (since dedicated transports can fill the void in place of a troop unit, or at least thats how my group has always played it. IE a marine squad with rhino - 2 troops).
your not breaking the rules of dawn of war, and your fulfilling the requirment of the dias to have "9 other models" plus vect on board.

the only thing up for debate really is if you buy vect and take 9 warriors for him, does the dias "which counts as a raider" count as hq. but on the same token, what about a SM commander, joined to a 9 man tac squad inside a rhino count as? can they be deployed in DOW? i would assume yes, in which case the dias (providing you have troops not elietes on board) should be able to deploy under the same logic. the dias is not an hq choice, its a special kind of raider. that is purchased when you purchase your hq. but as the dex states, and as ive said many times, "the dias is treated exactly like a raider..."

Spader; is the Dias bought with vect, or the Troops choice?


You can only buy the Dias with Vect, it is bought for vect and as such (and with being a DT) it is an HQ selection.

The SM example is a Simple yes they can be deployed in a DOW because the DT was bought for the troops, and therefore is a Troops(the Captain has no Transport Options)

DarthSpader wrote:ok having read the rulebook and the DE codex, you CAN deploy the dias under the following circumstance andheres how.

1,vect counts as an HQ choice, however his dias is NOT. "it is treated EXACTLY like a raider"
2: as long as the unit that hops on it is a troops selection, so warriors or wyches (or wracks of a haemey is in army) then that would be your deployment. (since dedicated transports can fill the void in place of a troop unit, or at least thats how my group has always played it. IE a marine squad with rhino - 2 troops).
your not breaking the rules of dawn of war, and your fulfilling the requirment of the dias to have "9 other models" plus vect on board.

the only thing up for debate really is if you buy vect and take 9 warriors for him, does the dias "which counts as a raider" count as hq. but on the same token, what about a SM commander, joined to a 9 man tac squad inside a rhino count as? can they be deployed in DOW? i would assume yes, in which case the dias (providing you have troops not elietes on board) should be able to deploy under the same logic. the dias is not an hq choice, its a special kind of raider. that is purchased when you purchase your hq. but as the dex states, and as ive said many times, "the dias is treated exactly like a raider..."

sadly mistaken, a dedicated transport for a HQ fills a HQ choice.

So a Raider for Vect is 2 HQ
but a Raider for wytches is 2 Troops

you should have read the thread

Kommissar Kel wrote:
You can only buy the Dias with Vect, it is bought for vect and as such (and with being a DT) it is an HQ selection.

Pending errata, this!

Wait. Dedicated Transports don't take up Force Organization right? This is the Dias' reading -

Vect may ride to battle upon the Dias of Destruction, a special Raider dedicated transport, with three dark lances...The Dias must begin the game carrying Vect and 9 models..."

Therefore, the Dias counts a Dedicated Transport.

BRB pg. 67 - "These 'Dedicated Transports' do not use up a slot on the force organization chart."

Therefore, it seems to me that the Dias is a Dedicated Transport that takes up no FOC slot. Therefore, deploying Vect (an HQ choice) and his Dias of Destruction (no FOC slot for Dedicated Transports) and two further troops.

This is how I read it.

Well, how about you read page 93...........sigh =_=