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We're having a problem at the FLGS and it's my fault. I allowed one of the Guard players to use Imperial Armor. The result is such a massive spamming of high armor and shooting death, and it's leaving everyone, including myself, at such a loss on hos to reliably deal with it. The list he used yesterday at 1000pts;

HQ
Leman Russ Commander
-Slick Loader
-Extra Armor

Elites
Inquisitor
-Emperor's Tarot

Troops
Leman Russ
-Slick Loader
-Extra Armor

Leman Russ
-Slick Loader
-Extra Armor

Fast Attack
Vendetta
-3x Twin-Linked Lascannons
-Extra Armor

Vendetta
-3x Twin-Linked Lascannons
-Extra Armor

Vendetta
-3x Twin-Linked Lascannons
-Extra Armor


For the uninitiated, Slick Loader lets you fire the Ordnance weapon twice if you don't move. The Command Russ lets all tanks within 6" ignore Shaken results, so all the Russes ignore Stunned and Shaken. The Emperor's Tarot gives him +1 on the roll to go first unless he rolls doubles on two dice. One Space Marine player's been able to beat it with a bunch of meltas in Drop Pods.

What army do you play?

I myself am doing `Nids, but there's also a pair of Craftworld Eldar, and pair of Dark Eldar. He swaps out Vendettas for Hydras with Tank Hunters when going against the Eldar opponents.

^ this

in general, though, you beat this list with any actually well-rounded list. His list spends lots of points on toys and upgrades in order to be good against lists that spend lots of points on toys and upgrades. A balanced list shouldn't have too many problems with it.

If you want something more specific, take infantry. He has three splatcannons, and that's it. Hordes should eat this for absolute breakfast.

---

Ah, with nids? Start with 9 zoanthropes. ultra tankbusters+invul saves will make things hard on his vendettas. Continue with anything that has S4, as everything in that list has rear armor 10. For example, an S4 gaunt horde will have few problems glancing all of his vehicles to death.

A Metric-f**k-ton of infiltrating genestealers.
Or 3 broods of 3 Zoeys (Warp lance)
Or maybe 3 broods of 3 carnifexs (Cheap but with enough bio-majigs to kill tanks)
Other than that i'm not enough of an expert to be able to help anymore.
Though the DE and Eldar guys are gonna have a time of it unless they spam the fire prisms and Ravagers (Ravager is the one with all the Dark Lances yes?)

well, don't allow IA

drop pod lists will crush it,

he automatically loses any objective based missions since vehicles cant hold objectives.

space wolf scouts might do the job
Bikers, blood angels, DE, or other super fast armies that have good armor capabilities can do the job as well.

invest in some taller, line of sight blocking terrain that will force tactical movement instead of standing in one's deployment zone and just shooting.

most importantly
make sure you are playing ORD weapons correctly, units being fired up will often get cover saves that people don't think they will get because they want to use the ORD-Barrage rules

he automatically loses any objective based missions since vehicles cant hold objectives.

He can still table you for the win or contest all objectives.

MannyMcCoconut wrote:

he automatically loses any objective based missions since vehicles cant hold objectives.

He can still table you for the win or contest all objectives.

It's pretty hard to be tabled unless you are bad.

and contesting all objectives, isn't a win.

really though, a space wolf drop list with wolf scouts should turn him inside out.

Still reading, but I just want to point out he doesn't shoot three "Splat Cannons" a turn. He's allowed to fire each tank twice, so he's actually firing SIX of them a turn.

The Deldar and Eldar players could always turbo-boost to get out of LoS. You should have some terrain that can block a tank.

I am one of the DE players facing this list, on a turn I turbo boosted it wasnt much help. Str 8 auto cannons are still scary and so are chimeras.

my list was

Haemonculous with liquifier

3 5 man units of wracks with liquifiers in raiders

2 5 man scourge with 2 haywire blasters

3 ravagers

my opening salvo was horribly unlucky including hitting all 3 lances with one ravager and producing a 3 3 1 in my attempt to pen but that being said his return salvo with slick loaders and 4 str 8 auto cannon shots per hydra because they had tank hunter was bye bye army

Laosiamus wrote:I am one of the DE players facing this list, on a turn I turbo boosted it wasnt much help. Str 8 auto cannons are still scary and so are chimeras.

my list was

Haemonculous with liquifier

3 5 man units of wracks with liquifiers in raiders

2 5 man scourge with 2 haywire blasters

3 ravagers

my opening salvo was horribly unlucky including hitting all 3 lances with one ravager and producing a 3 3 1 in my attempt to pen but that being said his return salvo with slick loaders and 4 str 8 auto cannon shots per hydra because they had tank hunter was bye bye army

that was a different list, this one has neither tank hunting autocannons or chimera's

also, remember proper spacing.

large pie can be mitigated by the way you deploy and move your models.

Also, remember that casualties don't need to be taken so that at unit is still in coherency. Let him blow holes and use your movement phase to close ranks next turn.

... and outflankers. Those are good too.

Well Aduro, I heard about what happened from the offending players perspective.

You had two pieces of area terrain in which you did not put your gaunts or your objective. A 3+ cover save of gaunts would be hard for his list o get through (going to ground of course)

Instead the gaunts and objective were placed out in the open.

Several good comments above I'd like to add my support too, and a few other thoughts as well.

IA really isn't meant for competitive play as far as I'm concerned...more for fluff players playing friendly campaigns and such. The league is not quite as competitive as our regular tournaments, which is why aduro allowed IA, but it's still a bit frustrating, especially for the newer players.

Drop pods did beat him recently, and is the natural counter I was planning on taking with my Space Wolves in tournaments (as he runs a similar IG list normally). With no melta or plasma, he's really relying on a few tanks for MEQ. Wolf scouts, too, work wonders.

No one's playing SW in the league, though =)

Objective missions work well, as he has no scoring units.

LOS blocking terrain is pretty rare where we play. More would be appreciated from this DE player, certainly!

My DE came pretty close, losing a KP mission at 6 KPs to 5. Wyches with haywire grenades caught him off guard. As we move up in point level, I'm planning on adding a large beastmaster squad which may help as well.


I'd imagine Tyranids with spore pods could work, similar to drop marines.

The key is you can't outshoot at range, but he's slow and clumped together and vulnerable to assault. If you footslog into assault, he shoots you apart early. If you try to drive up to assault, he shoots your transports apart too quickly. Drop pods/spores let you drop tough, strong melee threats in his face that force him to move (and therefore lessen shooting) or stand and get auto-hit in the next turn. It's never a pretty fight, but it's the best chance an army has.

Grimaldi wrote: Drop pods/spores let you drop tough, strong melee threats in his face that force him to move (and therefore lessen shooting) or stand and get auto-hit in the next turn. It's never a pretty fight, but it's the best chance an army has.

really i think the best chance an army has is a 5 man squad of vanguard with meltas and meltabombs, it would probably blow half his army off the table the turn it deepstrikes

Yeah, it's kind of sad because other non-nid armies can handle this kind of cheese with ease. In the case of space marines, it's 60% of your forces spent on 2 squads of combi-melta sternguard that combat squad and literally blow his army off the field turn 1.

Likewise, it would be laughable against a priestly power blob army ("HOW many guardsmen do I need to kill before the eviscerator goes away?"), or against eldar with BL fire dragon serpents, or, or, or...

The Unforgiven Saint wrote:Well Aduro, I heard about what happened from the offending players perspective.

You had two pieces of area terrain in which you did not put your gaunts or your objective. A 3+ cover save of gaunts would be hard for his list o get through (going to ground of course)

Instead the gaunts and objective were placed out in the open.

So what you're saying is I needed to sit in my deployment zone, not move or shoot, and hope the game ended before he tabled me. That of course assumes he didn't simply zip a vendetta over to contest, so I was to just hope for a draw.

That's a terrible Guard list.

he's paying for overcosted Upgrades and taking LRBT's as troops.



for 1k you should be able to destroy that list. take a Venomthrope or 2 and give a couple of Carnies and a bunch of gribblies Cover saves. he won't be able to ID the carnifexs and 1/2 his wounds will bounce off your Gaunts or stealers.

then he will either be forced to stay still to get more shots and do more damage, OR, move and fire single shots and have a poor chance of escape.

if you run all your guys untill in assault range you should catch him by turn 3. if it's Objectives just get onto them and laugh while he vainly tries to table you. if it's KPs just kill the Russes and leave those vendettas alone.

Overcosted upgrades? Allowing a Russ to shoot its main gun twice a turn for another 20 points is a great deal.

Maybe the extra armor is what bothers you? Extra armor reduces stunned to shaken. Vehicles within 6" (I think) of the command tank get to ignore shaken. So, 1/3 of all penetrating hits (and 2/3 of glances) are ignored. Is that a bad deal?

Either you're ignorant of all the crap that IA includes, or of how the game actually works.

Well, i wasn't aware it was that cheap.


It certaintly isn't too cheap.


it limits his mobility by forcing him to stay still. it's an opprotunity cost that doesn't translate into point cost as it allows your Nids to catch him earlier then a normal Russ using Lumbering Behemoth to his advantage would.

it's either Move, stay alive, and waste that upgrade OR stay still, shoot twice, and die much sooner.


it isn't OP at all. it forces choices and can cut both ways.


i also don't appreciate your flamefull comments. IA is actually a fully sanctioned GW product and is meant for use in normal games. SOME people don't like the rules and don't use them. The OP allowed their use and just didn't have the Tactics to compensate. He came here and asked for such tactics. The list in question is woefully unbalanced and is easily beat with a few minor tweaks to a normal list.

you're allowed to tailor your list for each opponent ... tis lame

Autocannons are S7 btw

with lists like his playing eldar and D eldar it seems like it would be best to reserve all.

that way oh shucks you went first ... oh shucks all my stuffs in reserve ..

marines I feel almost need pods here

DoA Ba will have fun with this list! Just drop down enough melta to knock this list away so fast...i sometimes wish people played list like this.

with guard, as mentioned earlier, i would use a priest with a blob squad outflanking, with a few more blob squads with some melta and some lascannon teams to force him to choose where he fires. I don't play with many tanks with IG so wouldn't be able to do vet spam too well.

Sm just stick with drop pods or some vanguard vets as well. just spam up on melta and maybe some PF. Have a ton of outflankers, with Khan.. and just not let him get the shots out.

I don't know much on nids and eldar, but i would try to get as many anti-tank and outflank units out so that he doesn't get much firing before you are up in his (insert word here)..

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:you're allowed to tailor your list for each opponent ... tis lame

see, that is another problem, if gurad are able to tailor to your army, there really isn't ever any reason for guard to lose, they have probably the most flexible codex in the game.

note that the loaders only let lemans fire twice ONE TIME

Grundz wrote:
note that the loaders only let lemans fire twice ONE TIME

Nope, it can be fired twice as long as the tank doesn't move, that is the only condition that has to be met, there is nothing that says that its a one use only type of rule.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:you're allowed to tailor your list for each opponent ... tis lame

Autocannons are S7 btw

with lists like his playing eldar and D eldar it seems like it would be best to reserve all.

that way oh shucks you went first ... oh shucks all my stuffs in reserve ..

marines I feel almost need pods here

I love how people don't even know the rules of the things that they are comenting on, but still feel the need to chime on!

Its a league, of course you should be able to tailor your list to match your opponents, besides, like many people said that IA list cannot win a scenario except by tabling its opponent so I cannot see how it can be that effective against someone that reasonably knows how to play the game.

And going on a rant here, but what exactly is the problem of tailoring your list if you know the type of army you'll be playing against? It isn't something that I normally do unless I'm entering in a league (I like to play with "all comers" lists), but the amount of whining that gets thrown around by most people when this type of stuff comes up is astounding to me.

Its a game, like all games, the purpose of the game is to WIN. If you want to stack your chances so that you achieve the objective of the game, then more power to you. If you don't want to do that then its fine as well. But if you don't want to do it for some personal reason than whine about people who do it then please put down the competitive GAME and go play Hello Kitty Island Adventure.

This wholle "everybody need to be a winner" mentality that the 90's put into kids is going to be the end of the western human civilization! [/rant]

List tailoring makes for very boring games for one. A league where you can constantly tailor your list to the opponent seems strange to say the least but I guess YMMV...

Anyway, lost of list will wreck this. An infiltrating TH&SS conga line would be fun to try.

Three russes (that fire SIX nasty pie plates) and 3 vendettas are certainly a lot to deal with... in a 1000 pts list!! (think about what you can include in a 1k list....)

And i can appreciate the frustration caused by 3x Av14 w/ extra armour coupled with ignoring shaken results form the command russ....! Nasty, and especially in combination with those tanks firing ordnance TWICE each (im a mech eldar player, and this combo brings memories of 4th holo-falcons for some reason, in terms of the frustration about being hard pushed to stop the russes form doing their thing.)

But, as already pointed out NOT a really balanced list, especially as he cannot score. Beyond me why he doesnt invest in a few scoring units - like 5 man storm trooper units w/ 2 meltas - to place inside 2 vendettas.

It looks to me its all about bringing alot of AT fire in your army. Long ronged str8-9 fire to silence/destroy his vendettas. Then he havent got TOO much AT fire himself (this is if your own army is mech)

Hordes ARE gonna have a problem with 6 pie plates a turn in a 1k pts battle imo.

And seems you NEED more cover (LOS blocking too), that way its possible to use cover in ways that FORCE him to move his tanks in order to shoot at anything.

Of course also placing objectives out of sight and claiming them there gives him real trouble, id say.

Overall: destroy those 3 av12 vendettas. Then he's lost almost all mobility. Then (requires decent cover, that imo the rules are geared for) try and stay away from LOS of his russes, unless you have something that can reach them reliably.

And lastly.... A jetbike seer council works wonders against this list ;D (in 1k you can push in a 10man jetbike council + 2 scoring minsize dire avenger squads in serpents w/ tl BLs)

Coming in from reserves as a DE/Eldar player isn't great, as you just come in piecemeal, allowing the IA player to just take you apart more easily.

While hiding in cover for objective games sounds like a plan, 6 STR 8 AP3 blasts a turn that can basically hit anywhere on the board (72" range, I think) can quickly reduce any unit to shambles. Throw in 9 TL lascannons and objective missions aren't a real issue because opponents get tabled.

In each phase of the league, the first 3 games are worth a lot of points based on W/D/L and number of fully painted units (part of the league's goal) while any subsequent games are just worth a couple points regardless of W/D/L or painting. I think sticking with the same list through the first three games, and then allowing people to tailor as much as they want in the bonus games (where results don't matter) might help some, although I don't think the IA player in question really tailors his list to his opponent...he just tweaks it here and there to try and make it more efficient.

This also reduces the need to move, allowing him to shoot to full effect. If we started putting lots of LOS blocking terrain around, it would be a major paradigm shift at the store (and would seem like we're attempting to stack the deck against one player, which always blows). I feel our amount of LOS blocking terrain is low, especially now that everything is true LOS, but there's no real guide on how much of each type of terrain s correct, just how much total you should have.

While deepstriking meltas sounds good, if he's castled up (which he will be), his Inquisitor and mystics will ensure he gets 2 battle cannon shots or 3 TL lascannon shots at anything that drops into melta range. Few units can survive that, especially as the command tank has BS4, which helps reduce scattering. The recent game I saw him lose to drop pods was a different list without the Inq, and my game I almost drew on was also slightly different.

If IA is a fully sanctioned GW product, why isn't it ever allowed at any of the GW run major tournaments (GT)? It's for casual games and fluff, not for serious competitive play because it can easily be abused into a monstrosity.

You can't disallow IA... it's official and in fact there aren't OP lists in any Imperial armour... maybe Issodon from IA 9 is cheesy in urban warfare but that's it....

Btw thi list isn't so creepy... My standard marine list would turn all that tanks to wrecks in turn 3.... without infantry to support them a single droppodded unit with combis will be able to destroy em all hiding each time behind the damage/wrecked tanks...

Anyway, with nids.... 3 shooty carnies in cover and... as previously said, tons of S4 cheap offenders like hormagaunts... Zohantropes are Instadeathed by the Battle cannos so, even with their creepy invul save I don't know if they would be a good choice....

Seriously you will find that's way easier to beat such a list than you can expect... they are seven models for an average of 200 points each...

ok for 10 points he gets to shoot his lemans twice and for 10 points he gets to give his hydras tank hunters hence the str 8 autocannon. Grimaldi and I have discussed this quite a bit at the league and im trying to figure other alternatives out then haywire wyches. I would have liked to known how it would have played out had I not totally choked my opening salvo