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Generally reserve outflank and deep strike lists should own a list that consists of 6 vehicles and one character.

BA winged spartan lists sporting two fusion guns each and 2+ saves.

DE reavers, ravagers and scourges. A ravager entering the board with 3 x DL should be able to choose dead vendetta.
The DE special character that steals initiative on a 4+. Webway portals and 4xblaster trueborn.

Terminator lists - Deathwing, Chaos (add obliterators), Logan termies. Let those amazing AP3 large blast templates land on some termies. SW or Chaos termicide deepstriking with 3+ combi-meltas and a chainfist.

Spam other disgusting things like 3+ x LR lists and out quality those leman russes.

Tau laugh at idiots who put points in big point baskets. Walk on a slow and purposeful broadside and plant a big one on the vendettas. Deepstrike in fusiongun crisis suits. Play with XV25s and screw with his ranging in.

How about eldar mounted scorpions and war walkers outflanking? Warlock led jetbike squads - 3 x S9 attacks on AV 10 should do the trick.

Spores or drop pods.

Kommandos and Vulchas or outflanking deffkoptas. Nob bikers - don't need to be all tricked out

Reserve your troops in objective games and walk them in to claim one in the late game for a win. (e.g. 5 CSM inside a landraider that pops smoke.)

Old codex him with DA smoke launchers.

Also, bring first turn chargers if you've got them:
Scout bikers
Land speeder storm + scouts
Vendetta + veterans
Deffkoptas

3x1 deffkopta with buzzsaw can wreck all three russes if you go first, so that's almost an auto-include for orks against this list IMO

Must take

1 HQ...he took a Leman Russ

Troop Choice
1 Leman Russ legal not 2, other choice is Armored Fist Group w/ Chimera legal choice.

He can have the third Leman Russ if it was Apoc rules or he spent the points for it after getting the Infantry and maybe drop a Vendetta to afford it.

I was just wondering why he toook the Inqusitor is all lol.

Dont allow that kind of force organization.

Those Russes don't count as scoring right? Since vehicles can't hold objectives how does he win? At most he could draw.

He needs 1 HQ and 2 troops his HQ being the leman russ command tank and 1 troop being a Tank squadron with 1 leman russ in it and the second troop being a Tank squadron with 1 leman russ in it. Unless I missed something in the PDF file I fail to see how that is illegal? sure none of it is scoring but when your goal is to table someone who cares. Furthermore the list I faced had 2 chimeras with troops in it as well. soooo really he took 1 HQ 4 troops and 2 heavy support

I could see a BA techmarine with a combi-melta working wonders here

he strikes again... NO THREAD IS SAFE!

As far as your terrain goes it seems like you just got a bad terrain set up for facing that particular army.

if you were fighting in that city board he wouldn't have stood a chance.

it is possable to either move from cover to cover or force him to move to get an unobstructed view.



Don't blame the enemy when you can blame yourself or the terrain.


if Vehicles can't get cover fairly easily then you are using too little or not the right kind of terrain.

hes the one who set up the board lol. I could probably forgive the double shot lemans and the extra str on the hydras if I was able to stun/shake the stupid things to keep them from firing back at me, but I cant so long as he stays in a ball. So from that standpoint I most definatly can blame the army.

The stun/shake thing goes away if you kill one tank right?

correct, but assuming he wont protect it you still need enough weapons to actually do it and since I play DE any one of his tanks is just as deadly as the next. Now I could get lucky and 6 to hit 6 to pen 6 boom on my first shot but I wouldnt bet on it so you would probably need quite a lot of firepower to initially destroy that vehicle which means his other vehicles are unhindered to return fire.

It may not be your 1st shot, but assuming you're taking 3 ravagers w/3 lances each, plus several other lances, I'd think by shot 12 you'd have it.
Not saying his list isn't tough, but if you can take down his hydras and command tank early, the rest should fall into place. 1st turn helps alot, which is why I suggested the Baron.

I apologize for getting angry, it happens too often and is disrespectful.

The point of bringing an Inquisitor was because I had 35 points and that is how many points an elite slot Inquisitor is with the emperor's tarot. I have not played with any of the retinues with the armored battle group.

The two shot Leman Russes are 185 pts with the slick loader and extra armor, idk where people were getting 90 points. The command tank was over 200.

I did not set up the tables lol as far as I know it was all Aduro who did.

The problems I saw most often against people that were not even fair games is when they either were unable to field transports for cheap (like Eldar) or just biffed dice rolls, especially against Laosiamus.

If you bring the right tools to the job and can find a way to deliver them, it levels the playing field and makes at least for a closer game.

I keep seeing people referring to 6 pie plate shots when all I see in the rules is 3x2 pie plate shots. He can not shoot at six targets in the same round. All he can do is fire at the same target twice. So if you have enough units someone is going to get through and then auto-hit every tank in his army. Nids should have a field day. Can't say much about the eldar/dark eldar since I don't know them well enough.

haroon wrote:Those Russes don't count as scoring right? Since vehicles can't hold objectives how does he win? At most he could draw.

Assuming you didn't throw out the core rules. No vehicle can control an objective. Thus also the dubious nature of BA Deathcompanie Dreads or the
"free" Dreadnoughts that Big Meks qualify for.

a sh**load of genestealers?
a sh**load of carnifexes?
a sh**load of hive guard hiding behind a wall, shooting round it?
a sh**load of zoanthropes?
a couple of harpies?
a sh**load of tervigons?

Laosiamus wrote:correct, but assuming he wont protect it you still need enough weapons to actually do it and since I play DE any one of his tanks is just as deadly as the next. Now I could get lucky and 6 to hit 6 to pen 6 boom on my first shot but I wouldnt bet on it so you would probably need quite a lot of firepower to initially destroy that vehicle which means his other vehicles are unhindered to return fire.

Did you try reavers w heat lances? 36" Move on with a 3+ invulnerable. Next turn blast him with S6 meltas - not the best against AV 14 but should do wonders on chimeras, hydras and vendettas. Webway portals should mean you are never closing across the entire board so on foot blaster trueborn or wych haywire grenade units should do fine.

Proxy DE flyers. 4 x implosion missiles, 1 void bomb and 2 void cannons should be a fine reserve to beat him up. Or go flyer light and try a razorwing.

DE are just a tough pull facing unshakeable heavy armor that also can shoot down your paper airplanes despite your speed.

field 3 of the LR achilles.

shrike wrote:field 3 of the LR achilles.

Maybe 2 it is a 1k points league thingy

Nenya97 wrote:

The two shot Leman Russes are 185 pts with the slick loader and extra armor, idk where people were getting 90 points.

Because 185/2 because you are firing 2 shots a turn, you are basically getting the firepower of a leman russ for 90 points without any of the drag of having to take troops/hq

with the minimium troop cost (approx) and your leman russes firing like they are two, you have basically 2-2.5 times as much firepower as you should for the first ~2 turns which is about where medium/short range weapons come into play

You fail to see taking an Inquisior/Lord also forces you to take 2 troop options and in a 1,000 pt option team. Its not in the list thats given, so its a Apoc list that a TO not knowing this has allowed a totally Armored Company to be in your 1,000 pt. tourney, I see in this listing yes. 1 HQ mandatory, 1 Troop mandarory (Leman Russ) the other must be a armored Troop with Chimera unless under Apoc rules a thrird Leman russ. Suport is the name of the game in low point games, thats why that rule in the Armor Book on page 268 of the Armor Book says in a 1500 pt list.Yes a Support team is needed, unless you want untold Anti-Tank hell from others. I spent 21 yrs in the armed forces and if that force went out to fight in my day. It would be dead without a support team or two. Legal or not its a fools man choice..I would drop a Vendetta and get a Chimera w/ troops, Armored Fist or Vets. Its a point issue not a legal issue, playing that list in a game I TO would not be accepted because of no support units.

I don't really understand where you are going with the Inquisitor thing, LordWynne. It's not a tourny that is goin on, its a league where people can change their lists for each player. I just don't know what you are trying to say.

Grundz wrote:
with the minimium troop cost (approx) and your leman russes firing like they are two, you have basically 2-2.5 times as much firepower as you should for the first ~2 turns which is about where medium/short range weapons come into play

2-2.5 times total firepower is a bit misleading. Those tanks will undoubtedly have twice of what they should. The rest of the army still as at par without similar upgrades.

As earlier noted, these shots are forced to be at the same target and must remain stationary to even do so. This does not mean that the rule is any less unfair but there are some repercussions that are not being exploited. CC armies can easily decimate the armored battlegroup as long as they can get there. But how different of a challenge is that from against any other opponent, just having to add in anti tank weaponry and maybe a heavier/quicker delivery system.

Shooting armies may have to resort to taking some different, heavier guns like more meltas, lances, or other equivalence to overcome the higher AV. I'm not saying it is easy but decide what the best weapons you have to kill these things and take them; throw them into a delivery system and give it a go.

Nenya97 wrote:
2-2.5 times total firepower is a bit misleading. Those tanks will undoubtedly have twice of what they should. The rest of the army still as at par without similar upgrades.

your also missing a couple hundred points that should be tied up in HQ and troops, which again, makes even more firepower available. so 60ish% of your army having twice as much firepower as it and a large portion of the rest of it not being tied up in relatively empty troop and hq choices, gives you the 2-2.5 times number

@LordWynne I must be lost somewhere but I have no idea what you are talking about. The list he is using isnt in any type of book its a PDF file on forge worlds site. nowhere that ive seen in the file does it say you HAVE to take an armored fist squad for your second troops choice. If you can quote that for me as a rule from the PDF file then call me wrong but otherwise he can most definatly do that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Did you try reavers w heat lances? 36" Move on with a 3+ invulnerable. Next turn blast him with S6 meltas - not the best against AV 14 but should do wonders on chimeras, hydras and vendettas. Webway portals should mean you are never closing across the entire board so on foot blaster trueborn or wych haywire grenade units should do fine.

Proxy DE flyers. 4 x implosion missiles, 1 void bomb and 2 void cannons should be a fine reserve to beat him up. Or go flyer light and try a razorwing.

DE are just a tough pull facing unshakeable heavy armor that also can shoot down your paper airplanes despite your speed.

Honestly I thought long and hard about scourge vs reavers and the problem boils down to Nenyas hydras that dont care about my turbo cover save. Add in the lack of any real cover we had on our table and they just would have at best got one tank down before they were toast. So I went with the scourge not really thinking about how I cant glance him to much effect either lol. Im not completely sold on webway portals because he has the whole board to work with, alls he has to do is stay way from me then my footslogging army just walks into death. With unshakeable vehicles I dont have a lot of options.

your best bet might be just to present target saturation.

use cheap raiders to shield your Incubi or Reavers untill they can get close enough to do damage.

each tank you kill(mob one at a time) will increase your survivability.

get your Incubi into assault and they should at least damage a tank if not kill it.


Kill his command tank so he no longer ignore's stunned results. it will reduce his army's efficiency.


if there is some real cover to hid behind you might try to shoot his Vendettas down first with DLs while hiding from the LRBTs.


Remember that no list in unbeatable. take beating it as a challenge. it might be fun to see if you can topple it.

if that doesn't appeal to you then you don't have to play against that list. find another game.

@Grey Templar Keep in mind that DE are a glass cannon army. My whole game hinders on him losing that main tank (which something to note, after reading the rules the command tank loses this ability while IMMOBOLISED. thats a plus.) That could take a lot of fire power that I cant spread around which is really what I need to do to stand toe to toe with heavy mech.

See for me a stunned is as good as dead because now he cant return fire and I can move on to another tank. now I have to throw my whole army at one tank OR lose and even then, if my lance that connects and kills is far enough down the line I wont have enough lances leftover to mop up the other 6 tanks he has that are almost gauranteed to down mine.

He didnt take 3 vendettas against me it was 3 leman russes, 2 hydras, 2 chimeras packed with 10 dudes with autocannons packed in. So his saturation was pretty solid to begin with as was mine I fielded 3 raiders, 3 ravagers and 2 haywire blaster toting scourge units (later found to be a waste after learning about that sweet glance rule lol)

Grundz wrote:

Nenya97 wrote:
2-2.5 times total firepower is a bit misleading. Those tanks will undoubtedly have twice of what they should. The rest of the army still as at par without similar upgrades.

your also missing a couple hundred points that should be tied up in HQ and troops, which again, makes even more firepower available. so 60ish% of your army having twice as much firepower as it and a large portion of the rest of it not being tied up in relatively empty troop and hq choices, gives you the 2-2.5 times number

Think about how many points are being tied up into these units, though, especially in a lower point game. 600 points are tied into shooting at 3 different targets a turn twice. If the points got allocated into more Armored fist or vendettas or some other thing, you end up getting either more separate shots (yes, weaker, but usually multiple units) to fire at different targets.

I am not saying this is not something that is completely fair but one should recognize the drawbacks. It's like taking an army of mini deathstars. They may be pretty killy but we are talking about tanks, all it takes are one decent shot to really biff it down out of commission as opposed to monsterous creatures or armies that spam something small.

I am not disagreeing that they pump out more firepower but they have to, because if they dont, they MIGHT drag down one or two units with them, never being able to make up their ~200 point cost.