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26" is not enough to get close enough to do damage on your second turn. Especially if the entire battlegroup is firing at the single transported unit.... Not really that viable in my mind. Could always be wrong, though. Could easily biff 6 battlecannons, 8 hydra shots, 6 multilasers, 2 autocannons... always a chance that could fail and if you went second that it would work. If you went first to put down the portal, there's always moving away from footslogging meltas to my side of the field....

What about beastmasters?
Why not MSU warriors with heat lances?
Scourges with heat lances?
Talos (idk wth it is but) with heat lances.

The games I have lost have been because of my thought a t-fex could hit the broad side of a barn and forgot about tervigon charging forward (at 500 pts) and drop pod meltas against SM.

I think with Eldar in the area, there just are not enough transports/fire dragons in their collections to field against the battlegroup.

With Nids, I would assume spodding zoeys would do a world of hurt (but i never got to see that part of our game), also spodding warriors w/heavy venomes (S9 right?) or spodding fexes?

The goal is to close the gap between the two forces and if you have any kind of pods at your disposal, they will be the key to getting there.

Against regular IG, it would be the same problem with IG v IG: whoever goes first will win.

Orks (not in the league but for sake of argument) have hordes that can be properly spaced to only lose maybe 20 orks a turn not counting cover saves or KFF. Coupled with deffkoptas and such, could be deadly.

Necrons (not in the league) can bring wraiths out the crap-hole and just turbo-boost with a lord and wreck face once they get to the front line (which would be turn 2)

CSM have cheap termies with 5 pt combi-meltas along with plaguemarines to soak up battlecannon fire.

To me, it seems there are ways to beat the battlegroup, and many of them. It seems in the games I have played, it was either the other army did not have the tools from the start (because of its construction, not their codex) to kill what i brought, they biffed dice rolls early game, or they sat in the open with gaunts, rushing towards leman russes in an objective mission where the battlegroup had no scoring units.

beastmasters can take as the name suggests beasts, X ravenwing, X chymera, X something else

Talos is a large MC thats T7 w/ 3 wounds

reavers with heat lances would be awesome there

Aduro wrote:I myself am doing `Nids, but there's also a pair of Craftworld Eldar, and pair of Dark Eldar. He swaps out Vendettas for Hydras with Tank Hunters when going against the Eldar opponents.

Eldar:
Farseer, fortune, jetbike
4x warlocks on jet bikes
4 units of 5 rangers, who just go to ground on objectives
3 wraith lords with shuriken cannons

The hydras may ignore the bikes cover save, but they don't do crap to the 3+ armor with re-roll. You still get the 3+ cover with re-roll vs the battle cannons, and only drop to 4+ invul with re-roll once you start carving into his tanks.
The wraith lords make a dash for the tanks, as do the jet bikes. You've got a lot of stuff that he "must" kill, and I don't think he'll get them all before you get to him. Even if he does finish off the assault force, you've still got 4 units with 2+ cover saves for him to deal with.

-Matt

Nenya97 wrote:Because all that was allowed was the Imperial Armored Battlegroup Army List updated pdf. It mainly just changes the FOC

This is the army list that was allowed by Aduro starting at pp. 17 of the pdf: http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/i/IA1update28AUG.pdf

No superheavies or flyers are in the list (they say they are flyers for imperial navy support but earlier in the actual entry it says to use them as fast skimmers in non-apoc) Most of the units that are in the Armored Battlegroup that are not in the IG codex, really are pointless vehicles that would serve little purpose such as trojans, turrets, and other things you might notice.

The list strips out all options the IG have in HQ/Elites(cept stormies)/Troops and gives me Leman Russes and Armored Fist Squads.

Then includes the ace skills which may only be taken one per tank.

^^
This is hilarious

The "stripped outs" units, are also known as troops, which are an anchor at 1000pts "oh god, but I can't take any crappy infantry!" as a downside, is funny.
whats even better, is you somehow convinced the organizer that basically getting an unlimited number of leman russ's firepower for 90 points for each S8ap3 pie is balanced.
Then you build a wannabe leafblower list out of it, including GK allies (even though this is not IG as stated and is not mentioned as a valid ally in the GK codex nor in this PDF)
Then you convince the organizer that only you should get your toys, and not let anyone else use IA codex additions.
And you can adjust your list at will against any opponent, so instead of building a reasonable, flexible list where you might have to out-strategize your opponent or actually play the game, you basically just sit and roll dice until you win, and there's very little many armies can do against such a gimmick.
Good show, let me know when you graduate to warhammer from rock paper sizzors

No complaining about the IA rules now. Remember they're a well-balanced non-optional core ruleset for 40k.

As for how DE takes on this list, I'd only take the WWP if you're playing on a 4x4 table for 1000 pts. On a 4x6, I'd go with something like:
Baron
6 Trueborn w/2 Darklances
3 Ravagers with FF
2 x 3 Reavers w/ heat lance
5 warriors w/blaster in raider
5 wyches w/haywire, hexatrix w/blaster in raider

Baron gives you +1 for 1st turn. Deploy in multi-level ruin w/ the trueborn and he should never hit more than 2 w/ a pieplate for which you get a 3+ cover.
I'd turbo with the reavers, and move flat out with the raiders straight at him (unless it's objectives, then hide/reserve your troops). 11 Darklances from the ravagers/trueborn should kill 2 hydras first and have a shot or two left over for the command tank (always focus on the command tank before the other russes).

He's then left with the choice of whether to take shots at 3++ melta-toting bikes, 4++ raiders with blasters and haywires, 5++ ravagers, or 3++ infantry with darklances. He also has to choose whether to fire twice, or allow auto-hits with haywires if he doesn't wipe out the wyches.

Whatever he doesn't focus on should be able to kill the command tank and win a war of attrition.

The stripped out units include a lot of things people bitch about, CCS officers like astropath/OoF, PBS, Veterans, the ability to take big platoons, and lots of scoring units. The frustration that I see again and again is when I can bring 2 scoring units of 10 guys in a chimera and still manage to win objective games. THAT, is hilarious and disappointing on my opponents' part. If someone is unable to kill 2 units of guardsmen and lose to something like that, it is pathetic and should reconsider wtf they are doing on the table.

I don't understand where you are getting unlimited firepower for 90 points, are you referring to slick loaders? It's 20 points and has to remain still to use it. Idk if you know the rules for assaulting a vehicle that did not move but you automatically hit on tanks that max out at rear AV 11, which, mind you, is pathetic against powerfist, witchblade, meltabombs, chainfist or any other kind of anti-tank cc weapon.

Yes, slick loaders allow the tank to shoot twice in a turn for a very good reason, because most armies that want to make it to the opponents' lines, make it there by turn 2.

GK allies was something I used in a few games to help go first with a 35 pt inquisitor because there are often only useless upgrades for that cheap of a cost. If you do not think that it is right to use an inquisitor with the tarot, that is fine but this is still an Imperial Guard army restructured. I've already considered not using them because of the flame that already comes my way in regular games, and now that I present a near expectable list every game and these guys still can't beat it, I would assume they really need to rethink wth they are doing and I need to think about maybe toning it down a bit to give em a little hand.

Other IA additions are able to be used as far as I know, Aduro said anyone could use any official lists. I was referring to what he had said was legal for myself which only includes what is in this one list. There was nothing I did but ask if I could use this list. If he wants to allow other things then that is his prerogative and I have no say to stop him otherwise.

We are able to change our list against any opponent, and everyone is able to do that and that was encouraged for everyone from the beginning.

Sitting back and roll dice till I win is how Imperial Guard work, and in essence how every army works. I do not know how any other IG army could win against competent opponents. Most other ways, in the fashion of blobs are easily countered, especially if your opponents know what is coming. When an army is based on being slow and only being able to rely on the shooting phase, it is a necessity.


I have tried to remain nice about all this bitching and whining because this league was just for fun. But when it comes down to it, the first time I try and help someone actually tailor a list against myself, they win. When I present an army that is spending nearly 200 points per model at 1000 pts and taking at least 3 of them every game, it is sadening to not see the right amount of effort put into making a list that would have answers to whatever I could bring.

Yes, some armies like Nids have a tough time answering the armored battlegroup but what will change if I had played regular IG? I end up massing more guns on the table than they can kill and receiving the same kind of bull gak from these local guys because a lot of them just dont know wtf they are doing when they play against guard.

I wanted to play this to change things up without having to buy an entirely new army. I wanted to just have fun trying something new, that I thought would be a little easier to fight against, giving my opponent a little more of a heads up on what I would bring (at least a few russes, giving them the incentive to maybe bring meltaguns or their equivilants). Apparantly, I was wrong, what I do end up seeing is only Grimaldi having any kind of a serious answer to what I bring and the guy i lost to, I practically built his list for him. Both of which games have been very close.

Seriously, though, what would change if I switched back to regular IG for the sake of shutting you guys the hell up? The same kind of stupid childish comments come in waves of how cheesey guard are and "omg wtf how do you field all these awesome models" I'm sick of it. It is pathetic what these guys have done locally and it's the same reason I quit earlier.

All you guys look for is pity, not actual advice. There are countless ways to beat the armored battlegroup as shown in this thread, it just takes a little list tailoring, which is what was encouraged as far as I know but no one is doing what it takes to win and just bitching about it. Allow whatever you want or disallow whatever you want, it's still just bitching about you losing in the end. I have tried to not be a dick about this, but I see more sportsmanship out of the little kids playing Pokemon when they get beat horribly week after week.

Then again, maybe it is I that is just the stubborn one and I'm too blind to see it.

Nenya97 wrote:
Seriously, though, what would change if I switched back to regular IG

well for one, the playing field would be level instead of skewed heavily in your favor, if you're such a great player, you shoudn't need 6 S8ap3 pieplates a turn for 90 points each @1k, you should be able to do it with many, reasonable lists by outplaying your opponent.

don't get me wrong, I /never/ lose in my local group unless allied with someone, and then fairly rarely, I mean, /everyone/ has gotten "bottom of 2 wiped" by my tyranids when I played them, but I feel my group is slowly getting better as I weakened my playstyle, and then am slowly bringing it back up as the other guys get better and give me a run for my money. My roomate went from running 6 vanilla marine squads with missle launchers, and no rhino's, and sat back firing 6 rockets a turn, to a variety of decent space wolf lists that he comes up by himself for example.
I don't run a WAAC list for the same reasons you see in this thread, its not fun, and it's annoying to everyone else, I'll run power blobs and ogryns or something, for me the challenge is taking a sub-optimal list and trying to wreck house with it rather than seeing if I can completely wipe out my opponent with no casualities.
.
Remember you play warhammer because you have people to play against, chasing them off by being a douche is not the way to go, it's a social game.
Unless you only play to beat someone, crush them into the ground, and rub their face in it, in that case, you should pick up the Xbox live hobby.

as has been pointed out, that IA list has some serious flaws that can be easily exploited by any balanced list.


if you get into CC, he is dead.

Deep striking Melta, he is dead.

if there is a reasonable amount of cover, he is dead.

if it is an objective mission(2/3 of games) he has lost.

the Vendettas die to high str shooting and are his only Str9 in the list.

the list doesn't have any Melta. Landraiders will just laugh off those Battlecannons no matter how many times they get to fire.

See the thing that changes if you play gaurd Nenya is that stunned and shaken results MATTER vs IA. Would some armies still have difficulties? Sure, I mean if you roll dice like I did in our game you just cant expect to win lol. I think you greatly underestimate how good that really is. If I glance and stun your vehicle it cant shoot me, that means that if I took reavers and stun a hydra my reavers will live. if I stun the chimera and the troops want to shoot they have to get out.

I think GK allies goes against the grain of where the game is moving. It will be gone when they get a new codex and it should have been taken care of by GW in a FAQ. If nobody else can do it then you shouldnt either.

If someone is unable to kill 2 units of guardsmen and lose to something like that, it is pathetic and should reconsider wtf they are doing on the table.

If you remember in our game I tried and choked so does this make me pathetic? Even though i've fought well against you in the past? insulting the people you play as well as the tourney organizer (the person who started this thread) is not good form sir but since im sure you are frustrated I will write it off as an outburst

Another thing Nenya, the Gaurd codex is a very very strong codex this isnt your fault and in many ways its about time since Gaurd have long been an army considered to be very weak. That being said some things in the codex are over the top, a lot of people dont fault you for taking them because its your right but you have to expect some flak to go your way. Even the flak I give you is just friendly. Did I not say bring the meanest you can bring in our game.

I think that allowing an all Imperial Armored unit from a PDF in a 1,000 pt game should be the issue, as the TO should see this and not allow as most army lists I see starts with 1 HQ and 2 Troop. I understand this PDF IA list has no troop listing and should be questioned. If I were to face this little 1,000 pt list I would use my Chaos forces.

HQ
Chaos Lord in Termie armor, mark of Khorne, Deamon Weapon.

2 Troops
x5 CSM, champ, melta bomb, plasma gun, missile launcher.
x5 CSM, champ, melta bomb, plasma gun, missile launcher.

2Heavies
x2 Predator Tanks, Turret Upgrade, Sponson las cannon, x2 combiweapon.

Heavy
x3 Obliterators

I can beat a few lousy tanks with this list and have in the past, If I were to get mean I would us my Traitor Guard and Blob mob him to death.

if you get into CC, he is dead.

I dont think you realise how much firepower he can bring at 1k. the list that faced me was 6 str 8 pie plates, 8 twinlinked tank hunting autocannon shots, 4 normal autocannon shots and 6 multi-laser shots. while getting into CC is a good idea without cover its dangerous.

Deep striking Melta, he is dead.

until he takes a mystic/astropath to slow this little trick down

if there is a reasonable amount of cover, he is dead.

in our game there was 0 cover for a vehicle and small hills for the infantry. Our local group is working on solving this problem by Aduro making more terrain

if it is an objective mission(2/3 of games) he has lost.

Nenya will completely ignore the objective and go for a table because honestly if he cant table you then hes already down to many tanks to matter anyways. So completely incorrect there

the Vendettas die to high str shooting and are his only Str9 in the list.

The vendetta list actually would have been easier for me but it was only played to beat Nids and wasnt the norm

the list doesn't have any Melta. Landraiders will just laugh off those Battlecannons no matter how many times they get to fire.

I think we have already touched on marines having strats to beat this and that its not the marines who are having issues. The question is if you dont have drop pods or landraiders whats the option

Laosiamus wrote: the list doesn't have any Melta. Landraiders will just laugh off those Battlecannons no matter how many times they get to fire.

I think we have already touched on marines having strats to beat this and that its not the marines who are having issues. The question is if you dont have drop pods or landraiders whats the option

This Imperial Armored list keeps changing, but I stand that with out drop pods or Land Raider I can beat any list, thats legal with the list i posted above. Heck I face a Space Wolf Plasma Gun line army every week end and not impressed. Tacitics are 50% of the game use them right and you could beat a list with 3 Leman Russ tanks and Vendetta any day. I never fight with 1,000 pts, I always fight 1,500+ and have severallists for different armies I face. Against Nids I would go Close Combat....Dark Eldar I would go more shooty, any Imperial army I mix up my units but go more close combat. Try using Assault troops, jump packs are great and a few chain swords or power swords and melta bombs in the right hands kills any tank. Heck I could beat this tank force with an all Termie army and not have a care in the world.

So what you're saying, is you could easily beat his 1000pt army with any 1500pt army you want? I'd believe that.

@LordWynne. Its not a standard gaurd list, those battle tanks get to shoot twice, you would need a lot of 6's on lascannons to make Nenya even flinch since he can ignore all shaken and stuns which is pretty much any result on the glancing.....OR you could immobolise him.....YAY, like he was gonna move anyway lol.

For Eldar, attempt to deploy behind LOS blocking terrain.
Take 3 Falcons with holofields,EML,SC,ss, Eldrad, Farseer, 3 units of FD and 2 of PF(objective campers)

should come out at less than 1500. might be able to fit in something else fun but its not needed.

If someone wants to play an all-tank spam list and tailor it depending on the opponent, then i see no reason not to tailor mine to be anti-mech

Deployment, Eldrads divination should mess with his fire arcs.
Turn 1, Fortune the 3 Falcons. Move Flat-out, preferablly where some of his tanks cannot get LOS
Thats a 4+ re-rollable cover save, and he rolls 2D6 and picks the lowest when rolling for damage. I've tried this in apoc with 2 Falcons and survived 4,000 points of incoming fire (not likely everyday, but goes to show how survivavble you can be)
Turn 2, Guide the Falcons (if shaken, guide FD) thats 3 dead tanks from FD. Then the falcons could pick off other vehicles if able to fire, 9 S8 and 9 S6 shots at BS3(guided) should work nicely.
Turn 3+ should be a clean-up operation, kudos if any FD are left alive but the falcons and whatever else you took should do well.

For 1k, same principle, but 2 FD in falcons (540) with eldrad or 2 cheap seers (210-250). might need to make take 2 cheap DA and GtG instead of PF (120-240).
total... 770 with the cheaper options.

----------

For DE i'd try a webway, you only need to hide 1 raider(deployed sideways), 12" deployment on, pivot to gain 2", move 12", disembark 2.9" (effectivly 3") drop webway...
Webway portal is now 29" on.
With a nice mix of AT you should be able to cause some havoc. Haywire grenades, blasters, etc, can pile out of here relativly close to his tanks and take advantage. If he moves away hes reducing his shooting abilities.
If you took Lady Malys you can also re-position your raider to avoid any incoming fire.

----------

I'd like to see how he does against a Shrike + TH/SS termie combo

dayve: you're only 500 points over, because all that silly was crammed into a 1000pt list

I just looked at this list in the books??

ok 1000 pts

1 HQ leman russ..

2 TROOP 2 Leman Russ.....(you need 1 Infantry like Armored Fist w/ Chimera to make this legal)

Fast Attack x3 Vendetta....

Why an Inqusitor?

Not a very legal list but I would put my 1000 pts of Chaos against that list. Looks a little to much Apoc to me and needs to be bulstered by 500+ pts to make it as scary as your making it out to be....I would love to see an all Ork infanrty army at 1,000 pts chew this list up.

40 'Crons + 2 Res Orb Lords. Glance to death?

Chaos Daemons. Deep Strike in his face, monstrous creatures and invulnerables should make his ordnance redundant.

Grundz wrote:dayve: you're only 500 points over, because all that silly was crammed into a 1000pt list

Edited ^.^

how does it need to be bolstered by 500+ points to be scary?

give that puny Imperial Armor company 500+ more points to make it more legal by adding infantry and it just might worry some of us...

Ok, so it seems like the main issue was you guys don't have enough terrain.


on a normal 4x6 table there should be at least 3 large-ish pieces that will give cover to anything that takes fire from the other side. Forests, large rocks...


that would be my reccomendation, play with some real terrain.

i think it was this and not the list that killed you. any guard player has the advantage when he has unobstructed fire lanes to your army.

Give him a piece of his own poison to be honest.
Field 2 Hades drills, with metla veterans.

I don't think you need anything else :p

as has been said, Marines weren't having a problem.

it's the Nids and Eldar that are getting splatted.

Hydras have access to tank hunters in this IA list too? Jeez, let me guess, 20pts? Double firepower for 20pts for russes - lol, don't even try to defend that with "I have to stay still", it is horribly unbalanced. The list sounds totally ridicolous, and the player too, that is a seriously poor attitude you've got man. Careful so you don't become TFG of the group.

One option for you guys if this guy continues with this attitude and that apparently silly list (with additional list tailoring even - jeez) is to not play him. As someone said, it is a social game, it is played for fun, if you're not having any fun, why bother playing him?

@Lord Wynne how is it not legal? Hes has 2 troops and an HQ at 1000 points. What rule is he breaking to make it illegal

LordWynne wrote:
Why an Inqusitor?

so the lemans can drop 2 S8ap3 blasts on your deep striking troops before they get to fire, also to almost guarentee getting the first turn.

slick loaders is 20 points which lets him shoot twice, ace gunner on the hydras which gives him tank hunter is 10.

For reference, HERE is an assortment of the types of terrain at the FLGS and some of the typical tables. With TLoS, it takes a MASSIVE piece of terrain to really hide much of anything. You only have to see a little piece of it thru a tiny hole, and you can shoot it. Anything that's giving you cover, is slowing down how long it takes you to get to him, giving him more turns of shooting to make up for it. He's fine sitting there, not moving, and only killing what he can see each turn, because you're going to have to come out into the open to get to him or return fire.