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I am having a dilema with what to choose for 2 out of three of my heavy support choices as I have four different units that have all worked really well for me and choosing which three to take is very very hard. The choices are:

1. Squadron of two Leman Russ Punishers no sponsors - This is set in stone for me I have never ever regretted taking this unit and have no intention of changing. I have never lost with my IG army in a tournament or a friendly game and these are central to that even though I know a lot of people don't like them.

2. Squadron of 2 Hydras - awesome unit and a, fairly certain they will be there as my second choice, they always deliver and I use my melta units to remove AV14 so no worries on that score.

3. Leman Russ Vanquisher with Pask - The ability to remove a Land Raider turn 1 is fantastic and this long range tank hunter just destroys things however it can be a bit of a one trick pony and melta vets can do a similar job and hold objectives.

4. Manticore - Boom squad gone but not reliable anti armour.

and very possibly but I don't use it much

5. Executioner - Plasma death that removes pesky terminators, transports and FNP Nobs.

So over to you guys what do you guys think? Before anyone goes on a I hate Punisher campaign they are staying they work my own evidence has proved it, I only mentioned them to show what my heavy support choices were.

I want to recommend the Executioner and the Pask Vanquisher as healthy choices.I too like the Punisher and ( when built ),my IG will have 2 as well.Question for you,how many melta vets do you run and do they have chimeras,or are they static objective defence ? It may be an idea to move to 2 Vanquishers,1 with Pask and 1 without and then an Execuitioner for Termies and any FNP.

I only like three choices from the five you've posted. Executioner, Manticore and Hydras. Between these three HS you'll be able to target every single unit in the game and do damage to it.

As you've got Punishers I'd probably push for the Manticore and Executioner to fill the remaining slots, as they compliment the Punisher's niche somewhat.

L. Wrex

I run 2 CCS with melta, one PCS with melta one vets squad with melta and one with plasma. One CCS is static for giving orders to HWS and blob squad and the rest are situational depending on the scenario and what army I am playing against.

Pedro Kantor wrote:I want to recommend the Executioner and the Pask Vanquisher as healthy choices.I too like the Punisher and ( when built ),my IG will have 2 as well.Question for you,how many melta vets do you run and do they have chimeras,or are they static objective defence ? It may be an idea to move to 2 Vanquishers,1 with Pask and 1 without and then an Execuitioner for Termies and any FNP.

Pask is terrible though. Vanquisher too. two of them together is still a bad point sink

Actually, you have a quadlemma, but I think I'll let that slide... this time...

As for the question, it entirely depends on the rest of your list and your play style. Without this information, any advice we give you will be pretty meaningless (except for the idiocy of the pasquisher).

Also, saying that the manticore is unreliable anti-armor is a woeful error.

Ailaros wrote:Also, saying that the manticore is unreliable anti-armor is a woeful error.

This. Is. Truth.

D3 S10 Ordnance Barrage? Need I say more?

No cover saves from LOS? Best of 2d6 penetration? Average of 2 templates?

If that's unreliable anti-armor, I'll trade you all the melta in my Marine army for it.

i am not sure what to sugest, however, i would not take pask and the vanquisher. i have tried it, and, it might work, once in a while, but, for the most part, just dont do it.

On the issue of the Paskquisher. You say you can eliminate a LR turn one? How much is that tank? 220pts w/ a lascannon upgrade? I raise you a Vendetta w/ 3 x melta vets for 230pts. Mine is 10pts more, but is more reliable, more manouverable, gives me 3 TL lascannons rather than one BS4 one, and is also a scoring unit, albeit a suicide one.

I don't know how anyone justifies Pask is a list to be honest...

L. Wrex

Hydras and Manticore get my votes considering you've preselected one

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:Hydras and Manticore get my votes considering you've preselected one

Ditto this ^^^^^^^^^^

what is the 1 choice you are taking?

shealyr wrote:

Ailaros wrote:Also, saying that the manticore is unreliable anti-armor is a woeful error.

This. Is. Truth.

D3 S10 Ordnance Barrage? Need I say more?

No cover saves from LOS? Best of 2d6 penetration? Average of 2 templates?

If that's unreliable anti-armor, I'll trade you all the melta in my Marine army for it.

Against the side armor of a rhino S5 won't do much if it does not score a direct hit, and it is even more difficult to hit a walker's 60mm base. A vendetta tripple tl lc volley is better than a manticore against the vast majority of vehicles. Manticores are good a good jack of all trades unit that is good at shooting anything, but they are rarely the best option.

schadenfreude wrote:Against the side armor of a rhino S5 won't do much if it does not score a direct hit, and it is even more difficult to hit a walker's 60mm base. A vendetta tripple tl lc volley is better than a manticore against the vast majority of vehicles. Manticores are good a good jack of all trades unit that is good at shooting anything, but they are rarely the best option.

A Vendetta triple t/l lc volley also requires moving 6" or less on a "hey look at me" flying base. Whereas the Manticore has indirect fire and can cover the entire table.

Yeah, Vendettas are great. No one is saying they're not. They're also Fast Attack, and therefore not relevant to this discussion.

shealyr wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:Against the side armor of a rhino S5 won't do much if it does not score a direct hit, and it is even more difficult to hit a walker's 60mm base. A vendetta tripple tl lc volley is better than a manticore against the vast majority of vehicles. Manticores are good a good jack of all trades unit that is good at shooting anything, but they are rarely the best option.

A Vendetta triple t/l lc volley also requires moving 6" or less on a "hey look at me" flying base. Whereas the Manticore has indirect fire and can cover the entire table.

Yeah, Vendettas are great. No one is saying they're not. They're also Fast Attack, and therefore not relevant to this discussion.

Other force org slots are relevant if they do the job well enough that the hs in question is not needed. Melta vets and melta ccs are ideal for slagging land raiders. Hydras, ac hws, or even a platoon with 2-3ac and bring it down is ideal for slagging light vehicles. Vendettas are ideal for slagging medium vehicles like baal preds. Manticores take 2nd place in a lot of situations, but the only time it takes the gold is shooting at a monolith when ig needs no help against crons.

Taking 2nd place isn't a bad thing when a unit is 2nd best at a lot of things. Hydras and all other are useless against lr and nearly worthless against av13, orks will laugh at a vendetta shooting infantry. Melta vets are not that useful against infantry especially cheap hordes.

schadenfreude wrote:A vendetta tripple tl lc volley is better than a manticore against the vast majority of vehicles.

"vast majority"?

The only thing that the triple TLLC is distinctly better is against non-AV 14, where the side and front armor are the same.

... so against rhinos.

Against heavy armor, S9 non ordnance is seriously outclassed by S10 ordnance, while against chimeras, they're better because they always hit on side armor, and against really flimsey things, the TLLC barrage may be better, but the manticores are still able to handle the job, very reliably (especially since they have 2 chances to get a 5 or better (per shot) even when they miss).

manticores are dead killy against vehicles. As are vendettas, sure, but to place the vendetta on a pedestal with things like the manticore and medusa way, way down in the far off "unreliable" category is falsely representing the capabilities of the manticore.

I'm actually going to say the paskquisher is a good pick. I've used it several times and it has yet to fail me in killing something good. You can't look at it as "will it make its points back"? You have to look more at "what can it remove to make victory easier?" It allows basically point and click tank killing from the safety of your own deployment zone. No need to have to get close with meltas, thats risky and relies on an AV12 platform rather than a sturdy Av14 one.

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:On the issue of the Paskquisher. You say you can eliminate a LR turn one? How much is that tank? 220pts w/ a lascannon upgrade? I raise you a Vendetta w/ 3 x melta vets for 230pts. Mine is 10pts more, but is more reliable, more manouverable, gives me 3 TL lascannons rather than one BS4 one, and is also a scoring unit, albeit a suicide one.

I don't know how anyone justifies Pask is a list to be honest...

L. Wrex

A vanquisher is not like a lascannon it is 2D6 armour penetration which is much more reliable when it hits AV14 than rolling 1 d6 with st9

Ailaros wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:A vendetta tripple tl lc volley is better than a manticore against the vast majority of vehicles.

"vast majority"?

The only thing that the triple TLLC is distinctly better is against non-AV 14, where the side and front armor are the same.

... so against rhinos.

Against heavy armor, S9 non ordnance is seriously outclassed by S10 ordnance, while against chimeras, they're better because they always hit on side armor, and against really flimsey things, the TLLC barrage may be better, but the manticores are still able to handle the job, very reliably (especially since they have 2 chances to get a 5 or better (per shot) even when they miss).

manticores are dead killy against vehicles. As are vendettas, sure, but to place the vendetta on a pedestal with things like the manticore and medusa way, way down in the far off "unreliable" category is falsely representing the capabilities of the manticore.

Against a chimera
S10 side auto pens
S9 pens front armor on a 4

S9 wins...why is that?

3S9 shoots 3/4 hit=2.25 hits
2S10 shots 1/2 hit=1 hit

Manticores lack accuracy, which is a good thing when shooting into a crowded area when 3 shots go off, but bad when you absolutely need to kill a specific unit and only 1 shot goes off.

Exactly my point in saying they are unreliable anti armour. Great anti horde however.

But you tend to only need one hit to kill that pesky Rhino, Predator or Land Raider, while you'd need a barrage of lascannon fire to do the same.

Think about it this way, your Manticore can focus on killing AV14 Land Raiders, while the huge number of other antitank that any IG player has in their force mows down Rhinos and other such transports.

Melta works best against land raiders.

Bs3 pie has a 50% chance of scattering 2" or more which will miss many targets when a direct hit is needed. There is about a 29% chance that a manticore will completely wiff it's intended targets and all the pie will scatter 2" or more.

The random scatter isn't all bad, because if several units are near each other that just increases the chance of hitting multiple units.

The main problem with manticores is with the players who use them. People far too often confuse raw power with reliability. The manticore is a random raw power unit, not a steady reliabile unit.

That's true, but the Manticore is also a good bet, as against almost any army it'll have a decent thing to shoot at, and when shooting at a Land Raider? 2" scatter still leaves you with a blast template centered on the vehicle's hull.

The Manticore is indeed a raw power unit, but such raw power is something the IG needs. S10 weaponry is relatively rare amongst the Guard, and Guardsmen don't always like having to get close to the Land Raider carrying the big nasty Terminators in order to kill it. Sometimes it's nice to sit back and let the big guns do the work, and that's what the Manticore and Medusa offer to the Guard.

the manticore is actually better than 50% accuracy against chimeras because they can still wreck the vehicle even if the shot scatters up to 5".

And that's PER SHOT. The manticore can get up to three at a time.

I'm still waiting for someone crazy/dedicated enough to calculate percentages on how accurate blasts really are . . .

Other than that, remember that one can make a great case for using ordnance barrage with indirect fire on a Manticore. Direct hits on a parking lots suddenly become much more deadly when you can lay down a large blast wherever you like touching a 5" diameter blast.

I personally run a Manticore, 2 Bassies, and some form of leman russ in the last slot, most likely a Demolisher.

Irdiumstern wrote:I'm still waiting for someone crazy/dedicated enough to calculate percentages on how accurate blasts really are . . .

Unfortunately, this calculation is dependent on two opponent-controlled variables: spacing and size of target. Hitting a densely packed horde or a land raider are obviously easier than a thinly-spaced group of terminators or dreadnoughts.

As these are uncontrollable, exact statistics are impossible, so you can only make vague generalities like "blast weapons hit at a percentage roughly equal to the shooter's ballistic skill".

Ailaros wrote:the manticore is actually better than 50% accuracy against chimeras because they can still wreck the vehicle even if the shot scatters up to 5".

And that's PER SHOT. The manticore can get up to three at a time.

Hold on why would you be worried about wrecking a chimera if you are guard? I know you will play other guard players occasionally and what you can do to a chimera you can do to a rhino but I would not back it against Eldar and Dark Eldar with av 12 all round vehicles. Against AV 13 - 12 I would back multiple lascannons and autocannons and missile launcher heavy weapons over a manticore.

Punishers suck. There are way more efficacious sources of anti-infantry fire in the codex than dropping 360 points for 40 S5 AP- shots.

Pask in a Vanquisher is a terrible model with an extremely low probability of killing its target.

Hydras rule. Manticore rules. Executioner with plasma sponsons rules if your meta calls for it.

Id pick the Manticore and either the Hydras or Executioner depending on your metagame. While the Manticore can scatter and miss or fail to do anything thanks to str 5 vs side armor its potential is awesome! The best possible scenario thats happened for me is a manticore rolled 3 missiles, two struck a battlewagon and one scattered into a squad of boys. One pen, one glane and 7 boys under the scatter. In one shot it exploded a BW and wounded 5/7 boys. The BW explosion killed another 2 boys plus a wound on the Big Mek and forced the other squad to run off the board. So one shot changed the whole course of the game. That was best possible scenario through my own personal experience but even if it had only killed a few boys I had plenty of other things I could use to take out the boys and truck. Guard is all about variety in my opinion. Lascannons failed? Try your LRBT. That fails try your melta vets. They fail, try the meltabombs on the vets.

Manticore
Executioner
Hydras.

The manticore has a use against most armies. Excellant against hordes and when you face meq's you can use it to pop tanks and harass the enemy with lots of wounds.

Executioner is great against marines, light vehicles and when it comes to hordes its pretty good against MC's

Hydras seldom lack something to shoot at. At 72'' range and s7? Agreed that they're designed with a very specific target (skimmers) but I personally field autocannons in my infantry squads. As many as I have I always feel I could do with a few more. Theres not much they can't do quite well. Half the price of the exterminator too!

I don't advise any tanks of the russ' varients which arn't either the Battletank, Demolisher or Executioner. The punisher might look good on paper and some people report its pretty good but its expensive for the lackluster it has. Best against mc's and hordes but a hellhound is cheaper and just about as effective against hordes and you could throw in some more HB in your squads or in HWS. As for MC'S snipers work well although you oculd spam HB and/or autocannons in your infantry to take care of them. (ratlings work very well)

The vanquisher is one of the choices I feel is redundant. Even storm troopers can do a better job for cheaper here. DS some stormies with meltas...Melta vets? Or some plain lascannon hws. I think lascannon HWS are under rated. People say they die too easily but at 48* range and bring it down orders they get the job down and after that what else will you need all that firepower for? lol yeah you'll give away a killpoint but you'll earn one and take out a hulking brute or vehicle which could do far worst.

Lascannon HWSs are way too expensive, and fail their orders half the time. For 10 more points you can get a Vendetta.